Independence Air to cease all operations in Jan.

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't know about pounding on the chest but the bottom line was signing a contract with UAL would have been signing our own death sentence. The contract would have been for less flying than we had at the time (some had already been farmed out to mesa, tsa and others) so we would have furloughed immediately. The proposed contract actually had no term and allowed UAL to farm out our flying immediately - we we're the most expensive regional around at that time and they wanted to cut costs. That was the deal that UAL wanted the company to sign. At that point, IDE was the best option.

Your assertion that if we took a bit of a concession we would all have jobs today is just plain wrong. I think the DAL and NWA pilots who have taken concessions to preserve their companies are doing what they have to - are you comparing us and them? If so, you are comparing apples to Buicks. Supporting the decision to leave UAL was not a "FU!" decision - it was the lesser of two deals with a huge amount of risk for job loss.

-PB

the bottom line was signing a contract with UAL would have been signing our own death sentence.

This is your opinion. Is it fact based?

Fact is, in all probablility, on Jan 08, UAL and UAX will be flying, INDY will not. Is this not enough to understand that, even in hindsight, staying with UAL was the better choice.

The "proudest day of my life" Indy blue juice drinkers have the belief of....

signing a contract with UAL would have been signing our own death sentence.

When actually venturing out on your own was your own death sentence.

Supporting the employees, rejecting the Tom and Kerry Show.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know what's funny? Had we kept the UAL flying because we took the paycuts mgmt wanted, we would have been blasted for once again lowering the bar. Now a couple years later we're getting blasted for not taking the pay cuts to keep the UAL flying. Whatever...

The pay cuts would not have been the lowest. Your post is ancedoctal....

 

[WhiteCloud]

The point is that all was not hunky-dorey with United. They were prepared to sign our death sentence. SO we did it first. We didn't just strije out on our own for the hell of it.

That's absolutely right. UAL easily could have ceased operations at any time over the past few years and still may. That would have left ACA in a world of hurt. UAL's not out of the woods even now. They're still bankrupt. It was foolish on both UAL and ACA's part to waste time and money on this whole fiasco of changing UEX carriers. A few token concessions would have allowed UAL to focus on flight operations instead of the expense of bringing in AWAC (and then screwing around with them and letting them go too) and incurring more huge expenses as a result. It's been a big mess and has been more ego based than business oriented. It hasn't been about business and making money. It's been about flexing power and both UAL and ACA management are to blame. When this all shakes out it may we'll be these unnecessary expenses and wasted resources that sink UAL too.

 

[wms]

Well said, Rez, very well said!

It makes me chuckle too each time I read a former/current ACA pilot post pounding their chest saying how proud they were to ‘kick’ down the UAL offer?

Wow…did those guys/gals lived with their parents all this time?
Did they not have a mortgage?
Loans to pay back?
Kids?
Bills?

If they took a bit of concession, they would all have jobs today? Over 1,000 pilots (and FA’s and all other employees) sent home after so many years of service. I know someone in the administration who worked there for ten years and he, like everyone else, has to start all over. Why do we, as pilots, only think about ourselves and not the whole operation? What about other employees?

What do those ACA pilots (who turned down UAL offer) think of NWA and Delta pilots who took cuts to preserve not only their jobs but also the airline itself?

It’s sad to see ACA end like this. I had fun traveling on it and the crew and everyone else was fantastic. I get quite a tickle from this one guy who was pounding his chest for ‘kicking UAL’ in the gut, losing his job, being unemployed for over a year…and then getting hired by the UAL commuter with even less pay then he way earning what he would’ve earned had ACA pilots approved the UAL offer; still he boasts about his ‘proud moment’. He still lives with his parents with no loans or bills to pay.

ACA mgmt turned down the UAL offer, not the pilots. But then again, it's always the pilot's fault.

 

[g159av8tor]

During my nearly three years at ACA/IDE, I experienced the best of 121 ops with a 6 month upgrade and the worst 20 some months later starring at a furlough. Even with all the ups and downs, I would do it all over again...I'm just glad it's over with. Goodluck all. Tailwinds...

 

[Publishers]

This whole thing is not a simple situtation and one should be reluctant to beat up on management or employees. They were being forced into a deal here that they found unacceptable and maybe unsustainable. That is there right and we will never know what would have happened had the compromised with UAL. The prospects for UAL were certainly not rosey and their UAL future was questionable to.
They thought the time was right to give it an effort to go on their own. Some things worked against them, like fuel. Predatory pricing by the competition also was problably expected but to what degree.
Now that it has not worked out, here come the naysayers. People that say they were decieved by management not coming forth and telling them sooner or not remaining upbeat in face of failure just do not understand the real world. You do your best until the end.
For people on this board to decry deceit and to say they made a bad decision probably do not know the facts. Either way, there was no assurance the other way to go would have been much better in the end.

 

[sbn340mech]

ATTENTION ALL REMAINING INDY EMPLOYEES
Hey my heart goes out to you, that said, whatever you do don't hold on to the Titanic too long. I went through this already once this year, C8. BAIL NOW and don't look back!

Hey taildragon, did you go to IDE after Chi Ex shut down? And its happening all over again?

 

[logolight]

Riding in the waves of the others here, what happened with the UAL/ACA contract was United wanted controll over ACA's fleet which meant that at any given time United saw fit, they could immediately park airplanes and start them up again at their leisure. Now how do you properly staff pilots for that? The other and more significant problem was the contract proposal from United would have allowed them to completely dissolve ACA over the next 5 years of the contract. Why would anyone sign their own death warrent? So the only thing left for ACA was to try to out on it's own. It wasn't the best time to do it but it the only thing they felt that was left to do.

 

[Propblast]

This is your opinion. Is it fact based?

Fact is, in all probablility, on Jan 08, UAL and UAX will be flying, INDY will not. Is this not enough to understand that, even in hindsight, staying with UAL was the better choice.

The "proudest day of my life" Indy blue juice drinkers have the belief of....



When actually venturing out on your own was your own death sentence.

Supporting the employees, rejecting the Tom and Kerry Show.

UAL wanted ACA to sign a contract that allowed them to continue to siphon off the UEX flying to mesa, etc. That is a fact.

ACA was the highest cost regional in the system at the time. That is a fact.

After ACA left they went after AWAC - the next hightest cost regional. That is a fact.

You ought to be able to use rational deduction to see where things would have gone if we had stayed with UAL. Just because UAL and UEX are around today doesn't mean ACA would have been in the system. That is not a logical deduction - you need to deal with the facts a little.

BTW, don't throw all that blue juice drinker stuff out - it shows an infantile approach and weakens your arguement.

-PB

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

After ACA left they went after AWAC - the next hightest cost regional. That is a fact. -PB

On Jan 08, AWAC will be flying. That is a fact.

AWAC is hring. That is a fact.

FLYI is/has/will furlough. Fact.

Hindsight is 20/20 for some, but still not for all. This is a fact!

 

[Kenny]

On Jan 08, AWAC will be flying. That is a fact.

AWAC is hring. That is a fact.

FLYI is/has/will furlough. Fact.

Hindsight is 20/20 for some, but still not for all. This is a fact!

But the point you missed Rez is that, depending on how you look at it, AWAC got extremely lucky. There are those up at Galactic HQ who will tell you, had the USAir deal not happened, the 3 Amigo's were within days of shutting down the company.

We are entering a completly new era of aviation business here in the US. It's not a case of survival of the best but simply the luckiest or cheapest. Unfortunately ACA/Indy was neither.

 

[RP170]

But the point you missed Rez is that, depending on how you look at it, AWAC got extremely lucky. There are those up at Galactic HQ who will tell you, had the USAir deal not happened, the 3 Amigo's were within days of shutting down the company.

We are entering a completly new era of aviation business here in the US. It's not a case of survival of the best but simply the luckiest or cheapest. Unfortunately ACA/Indy was neither.

Not to mention that AWAC gave US Airways $200 million to stay in business. That's not too impressive.

 

[Kenny]

"Not too impressive" Why? because they used the profits they'd made to ensure their survival? Isn't that how business works. Are you really telling me that other airlines faced with being cut off at the knees by Yonited, wouldn't have done the same thing?

Whether you cut your profit margins or pay to play the end result is still the same. We kept flying and we've so far kept our pay rates and more importantly our contract and work rules.

You can scorn all you want but we still have a contract and work rules that most others would f#cking kill for.

 

[Turtlesfly]

No, it's not too late - FlyI can buy 69 jets' routes' worth from CAL!!!!

 

[Drill Sgt. Dad]

Regardless, UAL wanted ACA out, period. Then they wanted Air Whisky out. Meanwhile they signed different deals with the other carriers. They're allowing Mesa to move 30 of the 60 RJs (50 seaters) out of US Airways system and into the UAL system. Plus they're giving Mesa more flying. And they're allowing Republic to fly the E170's. Yes, Mesa tried a hostile takeover with $550 million and $11 a share during a hostile take over, but wtf? ACA wasn't wanted by UAL anymore. So, it wouldnt have matere whether we would have stayed or gone out on our own. We could have made it on our own providing it was managed correctly, and it wasn't. All too often I kept seeing the pilot and FA groups stepping up to the plate to prevent more SNAFUs and put fires out, and what thanks did we get? Constant bashing from the little fat moron in the puzzle palace who bashed us and still puts out hotliines like nothing is going to happen. 866-465-9309. Plus he hasn't mentioned anything about Deadskins football this year. I thought we were the official airline of the Washington Deadskins?

 

[Frosty328]

I do miss the good ole' Boston days. I wish all the pilots and flight attendents the best. TOGA 2 TEN!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Many seem to know what exactly what UAL had planned for ACA. Fact is, none of really do. We were only told what UAL and/or ACA wanted the public to know. Like myself, don't pretend to think you really know the real deal. None of us do.

It seems the people in the "Pro Indy camp despite its failure" are determined to believe it was the right move. Not sure why. Your kid doesn't care how the bills are paid. If you need to have Indy pride, then so be it. I can't explain that to my family.

"I can't pay the house note this month, but I got Indy Pride!!"

"Hows that Indy Pride dinner taste kids?... lap it up!"



Let's not devaite from the facts.

AWAC will be hiring and flying on Jan 08.