Inappropriate comments about RJ crash?

[SkyBoy1981]

Has there been any discussion about flying that high at night, and its effect on your body? We're all taught about it, but one of the known factors is that impairment is worse and comes on earlier at night. I haven't seen the NTSB even look in that direction.
These guys did some stupid things, and it's very uncomfortable to read the CVR. But at some point, it seems like their judgment just dropped off the scale. I mean, the airplane is telling you that you're getting into serious trouble, and your only response is to laugh? Something not right there.

Excellent observation.

 

[100LL... Again!]

These comments are really scary:


"..it ain't speeding up worth #."
"this # nose is. look at how nose high we are."
"I know that's #. dude the # ball's way off man. dude the ball's full off."

So it's uncoordinated and nose-up. But then:

# thing's losing it.
[sound of laughing]
...we're losing here. we're gonna be # coming down in a second here dude.
[sound of laughing]
this thing ain't gonna # hold altitude. is it?
it can't man we # (cruised/greased) up here but it won't stay.
yeah that's funny we got up here it won't stay here.
dude it's # losing it. [sound of laughing]
yeah.


Has there been any discussion about flying that high at night, and its effect on your body? We're all taught about it, but one of the known factors is that impairment is worse and comes on earlier at night. I haven't seen the NTSB even look in that direction.

These guys did some stupid things, and it's very uncomfortable to read the CVR. But at some point, it seems like their judgment just dropped off the scale. I mean, the airplane is telling you that you're getting into serious trouble, and your only response is to laugh? Something not right there.

You mean impairment comes on quicker because of fatigue, and ackside of the clock affects?

 

[TonyC]

Thats being a bit arrogant, don't you think? Sure, these guys did some stupid things (seat swapping, over-rotating, etc..) and I'm not trying to defend them for that....but can you think back to a few times where you would've sounded like a fool on a CVR if it had ever been made public? So they said "dude" a lot...so do I sometimes...and so do some of the 40 something year old guys that I fly with...who really gives a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**?

My point is this: The vocabulary, namely the heavy reliance on the use of the word "dude," reflects on the individuals. Haven't you heard the commercials for "Verbal Advantage" that remind you that you are known by the words you use? Perhaps they overstate the issue in an attempt to get you to buy their product, but the principle is true.

Use of the word "dude" makes one sound immature and unprofressional. Is it a huge surprise, then, to learn that their actions were immature and unprofessional? The vocabulary reflects an attitude.

Don't try to sell me on the notion that all 40-somethings use it. I'm 40-something and I don't. I don't hear it used among the 20-somethings, 30-somethings, 40-somethings, or 50-somethings I work with, at least not in the cockpit.

Now, I may be all wrong on this, but that's just my opinion. This ain't Animal House. Language colors the mood, and the mood in the cockpit of Northwest Airlink Flt #3701 was the wrong color.




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[Yank McCobb]

If you keep at it, you JUST might surpass Surplus1 as flightinfo's most overly melodramatic poster.

 

[TonyC]

Has there been any discussion about flying that high at night, and its effect on your body? We're all taught about it, but one of the known factors is that impairment is worse and comes on earlier at night. I haven't seen the NTSB even look in that direction.

These guys did some stupid things, and it's very uncomfortable to read the CVR. But at some point, it seems like their judgment just dropped off the scale. I mean, the airplane is telling you that you're getting into serious trouble, and your only response is to laugh? Something not right there.

You can compare the FDR data with the timeline of events and get a shred of information about cabin altitude. Passenger Oxygen Caution came on about 7 minutes after the downhill ride began, well after the conversations you've quoted from the CVR occurred. Cabin Altitude Warning was on immediately following the FDR gap, but not prior. (The gap was due to loss of electrical power after the engines flamed out. Data collection began again once the APU Generator was on.)

While the cabin altitude would have been higher than they'd experienced previously, the poor decsion-making didn't begin there. Poor decision making is evident just after rotation, and it had probably occurred prior to engine start.





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[SkyBoy1981]

I don't hear it used among the 20-somethings, 30-somethings, 40-somethings, or 50-somethings I work with, at least not in the cockpit.

Every now and then I fly with a dud that has the personality of a brick....they never hear me say much of anything really, let alone "dude". These types are usually so full of themselves that they really have no life or personality outside of the "Captain" figure that they try to be when they are in the cockpit. Carrying on any type of conversation with these people outside of flying airplanes is next to impossible. It seems to me that you could be one of these people. Loosen up "dude".

 

[TonyC]

Loosen up "dude".

Like, whatever.













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[405]

Dude.

 

[PCL_128]

Dude.

Sweet!

 

[405]

Nevermind, dude.

 

[TonyC]

Since when did proper vocabulary become an issue with 3701? Yeah, they used the evil word "dude" a few times. Big effing deal.

- - EDITED TO - - >

Dude.

I don't think that the use of the word "dude" will be listed as a contributing
factor in the accident even though they said it about 100 times. Sorry, Tony.

- - EDITED TO - - >

Nevermind, dude.

You can't even make up your mind what you want to say, I really don't expect you to understand. I'm saying that the language reflects an attitude that doesn't belong in the cockpit. The attitude WILL be listed as a contributing factor, if not as a CAUSAL factor.

If I offended you by pointing this out because your hobbled vocabulary depends on this word, I'm sorry. Grow up.






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[PCL_128]

Tony's right on this. Occasionally using the word dude might not be a big deal, but when you say it every other word then it says something about your maturity level. We're not riding waves out in "Cali", we're professional pilots flying airliners. It's time everyone starting acting like it.

 

[Daveman]

Tony's right on this. Occasionally using the word dude might not be a big deal, but when you say it every other word then it says something about your maturity level. We're not riding waves out in "Cali", we're professional pilots flying airliners. It's time everyone starting acting like it.

I'm a surfer and a professional pilot. Please drop the Hollywood/stereotype of the surfer-dude-beachbum. (Though sometimes I wish I was one).
Hey, I think we know the deal before the final report is published. May the young bucks learn from this......

 

[405]

See you next time.

 

[TonyC]

Tony, you must have no life if you can copy and paste stuff that fast, man. What part of Collierville do you live in? You must be bored.

Fast? HA! You ain't seen nuttin'!


Collierville? Nope.


Bored? somewhat - - so what?


Did I embarrass you by posting what you posted?

Where's your family? Oh, that's right. You sent them to "camp".
__________________
Nietzsche.

Last edited by 405 : Today at 20:05. Reason: added two more sentences

That would be three sentences, champ.






All the above EDITED TO - - >

See you next time.
__________________
Nietzsche.

Last edited by 405 : Today at 20:08. Reason: edited for TonyC

Real cute. I'll bet the female contollers get a big kick out of you.






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[405]

There's nothing you can do that would embarass me here. I could care less. I hate my job and I despise aviation, airplanes and the entire industry as a whole.

DUDE.

 

[TonyC]

And now,

There's nothing you can do that would embarass me here. I could care less. I hate my job and I despise aviation, airplanes and the entire industry as a whole.

DUDE.

becomes:

405

Remove user from ignore list

This message is hidden because 405 is on your ignore list.




<sigh>








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[PCL_128]

There's nothing you can do that would embarass me here. I could care less. I hate my job and I despise aviation, airplanes and the entire industry as a whole.

DUDE.

And yet you spend your time on an aviation message board?

 

[AirBill]

You mean impairment comes on quicker because of fatigue, and ackside of the clock affects?

Just finished a trip, and I'm not motivated enough to go leafing through my books to find out where this is from. But I seem to remember something about nighttime being one of those factors that aggravates hypoxia. I also know these guys were sitting hot reserve all day.

Not saying any of this caused this accident. These morons did a lot of things wrong. But their actions, when presented with clear indications that their world was falling apart, clearly indicate hypoxia.

You can compare the FDR data with the timeline of events and get a shred of information about cabin altitude. Passenger Oxygen Caution came on about 7 minutes after the downhill ride began, well after the conversations you've quoted from the CVR occurred. Cabin Altitude Warning was on immediately following the FDR gap, but not prior. (The gap was due to loss of electrical power after the engines flamed out. Data collection began again once the APU Generator was on.)

While the cabin altitude would have been higher than they'd experienced previously, the poor decsion-making didn't begin there. Poor decision making is evident just after rotation, and it had probably occurred prior to engine start.

You'll get no argument from me here. But hypoxia is nothing to play with. I'm not talking about the depressurization that happened when the engines quit. What is the cabin altitude of a CRJ at FL410? I know in the ERJ, it's 8,000 at 370. Wanna try a neat trick? Next nighttime flight, after you've been at 370 a while, look at your PFD and then suck on some oxygen. You'll see then how impaired your vision is.

Most of us have experienced hypoxia at some time in our lives, and the solid truth is you don't know it when you are. I'm not trying to shield these guys from any blame, just trying to point out that these guys sure reacted funny when the plane was crapping out.


$0.02

 

[PCL_128]

At FL410 the cabin alt should be roughly 8000-8500 ft. At that cabin altitude, the only thing that should be affected is night vision. Their decision making abilities should not be impaired at that point. Besides, their mind-set was screwed up when they were at 1000 ft. Did you notice the nearly 2g pull up they did on rotation? How about swapping seats climbing up when the cabin alt was probably only 2-3000 ft? Or how 'bout the multiple 2g pull ups and 0g push-overs they did constantly during the climb long before cabin alt got anywhere near 5000 ft (the min altitude that even night vision is usually affected)? You can't label this as hypoxia. This was just two cowboys having a good time. I hate to say that since their families are suffering so much right now, but that's the truth of the matter. Suger-coating it and looking for cop-outs isn't going to help.