Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[Lear70]

Lear,

When I signed up at NWA, I signed up for a pension and the dream of never being furloughed. I also thought that I might be upgrading within 4-5 years. I also thought that my seniority would never be subverted by a bunch of underhanded SLI arbitrators.

You guys are going to have to learn at some point, this industry is not all rosy. I know it hasn't been easy for some of you guys at Compass, and I would never want to characterize EVERY Compass pilot as having it easy. BUT, you have to realize that this industry is cyclical. There are going to be commitments that are not met. You are getting a little dose of that right now.

I hope we are able to work out an agreement for you guys, but that agreement is going to have to ensure flowback protection or some sort of financial assurances from Delta for DELTA pilots. Compass was bought and paid for by NWA pilots. People seem to lose sight of this.

Not trying to get you all riled up, just try to keep in mind that there are people at the majors that were promised a lot of things and ended up taking a big bit out of a $hit sandwich.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

By "You Guys", I'm assuming you're talking to the Compass pilots... I don't work there, only applied there after AirTran issues.

However, many of us have "paid our dues", about 3 times over. When I got hired at AirTran, I had gone through 2 companies shutting down and 1 furlough, 5 type ratings, and had twice as much flight time as most of the Captains I was flying with. Point being? Many of the pilots at Compass (and other Regionals) are in the same boat, and may even be more experienced than you, so you might want to save the "You guys will have to learn..." lecture for the unwashed.

As far as the rest of it, what happened in bankruptcy was unfair to all the pilots at most of those carriers, and I certainly hope that as your own contracts come up for Section 6, that you will be successful in taking back much of what was promised you when you hired on.

Fair is fair is fair. No matter *WHO* you work for.

/soapbox

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Has the DALPA MEC decided that they've given away enough scope already, or are they willing to sell out the profession even more for a few more pieces of silver?

Listen to yourself....

Did DALPA have anything to do with the sale of these airlines? What does this sale have to do with scope??

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Listen to yourself....

Did DALPA have anything to do with the sale of these airlines? What does this sale have to do with scope??

Bill:
Sometimes people are so out of touch with reality, it's just more fun to watch them relish in their own stupidity.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Even if they kept the flow BACK, wouldn't DL guys who flowback no longer be represented by Dalpa (or their own company for that matter)...

Further since they got rid of them who would pay for flowback training?

What is left to protect bottom Delta guys from being furlough fodder (and senior guys from being downwardly displaced) now that the high cost of flowback is no longer an issue?

If they kept the flowback would it be mandatory (thus the company not being on the hook for unemployment/furlough "benefits")?

On a slightly different note, in addition to this selloff event (and subsequent flow and high cost of furlough protection loss), have you noticed other veiled signs that your union might be helping MGT prepare for making pilot furloughs easier?

ie: such as combing int'l & domestic trips (which would require less pilots since less can do both), lowering guarentees over the past year or so, bit by bit scope concessions (that all together create a huge mountain), schemes to dual-qualify? The list goes on an on (under the table tactics by MANY major airlines' mgt that manage to slip by individually, but causes great distress to the pilot group as a whole). Then enter the never-ending cycle of losing and later renegotiating parts of the very things you USED to have and previously negotiated away and back repeatedly (thus never getting ahead...in fact, very much BACKWARD).

Also, have all of the Previous NW hardcore union types just given up? It seems it would be highly beneficial to ALL Delta pilots if you had a good slew of those "won't back down" types in there rather than EB's golf buddies and other narcissistic types easily charmed &/or manipulated by executive types.

All good points.....they might just be setting up for a grand furlough scheme, then why are they planning to hire 300 more pilots?? Furlough one and all the 76 seaters snap to 70 with a flow or not. Overtime flying handed out like candy, new (New to Delta) airframes on property......too much need for pilots as of right now. I'm not new to this business to think that could change tomorrow.

It's a good thought, but I think the other cards play that as not feasible in the near future.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Bill:
Sometimes people are so out of touch with reality, it's just more fun to watch them relish in their own stupidity.

Yep,

And here I thought CRJ and TankerA$$Clown was the source of all stupidity. Speaking of that little sad troll CRJ, he's been trying to start static on another thread.....go get him!!!:uzi:

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Lear,

When I signed up at NWA, I signed up for a pension and the dream of never being furloughed. I also thought that I might be upgrading within 4-5 years. I also thought that my seniority would never be subverted by a bunch of underhanded SLI arbitrators.

Just let it go Delta pilot......let it go!!

 

[DYLIN]

Without flow-down provisions into the most Captain senior positions, I would be against any flow-up to Delta. Calling my reps on this one.

What is your question? We might be able to answer it right here, too.

A flowback situation would place the flowbacked mainline pilots right at the top of the Compass list, in seniority order.

It is for this reason that the #1, #2, and #3 Compass pilots out of 400 total are furloughed Northwest Airlines pilots, the ones that elected to fly at Compass before returning to NWA, and then the music stopped right before they were going to go back to mainline so they've waited there a couple years.

Does that help? Flowbacks would be senior to all Compass pilots except those that were offered a mainline class date and elected to stay at Compass (doubt anyone would elect to stay at Compass, but there could be one or two). If for some reason there were a lot that wanted to stay, only the top 10% would be offered this protected seniority. So the most senior Delta flowback would be 10% system seniority. That stuff is all hypothetical though, since nobody has had the chance to turn down a class offer yet (45 day window is open right now).

 

[wmuflyguy]

If Delta wants a flow it will have to be with Comair, and I am guessing that will never happen as nobody wants it at either group.

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

 

[General Lee]

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RedRum]

Just let it go Delta pilot......let it go!!

BL,

Easy for you to say..

Just sayin

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Huh?

Are you talking Mr.SuperPremium Widebody? I'm sure your life is soooo rough right now postmerger.....

save it!

 

[wmuflyguy]

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Don't forget, just make sure you take it out on the right people.

 

[Full of LUV]

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

Well I guess the solution that DALPA would live with would be for the flow to start with anyone hired after 2002 at COMAIR. Thats when the Delta pilots got the hot poker in the eye post furloughs. Funny thing is that only a handful would have even went there (like ASA) and would have left long ago, but the animosity very much remains.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Well I guess the solution that DALPA would live with would be for the flow to start with anyone hired after 2002 at COMAIR. Thats when the Delta pilots got the hot poker in the eye post furloughs. Funny thing is that only a handful would have even went there (like ASA) and would have left long ago, but the animosity very much remains.

That's fine or just make everyone who chooses to flow interview first, doesn't matter to me. Originally I was pointing out to a poster from oh that not all of us are against a flow (I was hired well after this whole mess). More and more of us are realizing this place is not a permanent home and is in trouble. I'm fine without a flow (though not opposed to one), I'll apply and interview if I should ever get called (not just at DL, plenty of other good jobs), I'll earn a spot.

 

[FBN0223]

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Flow up/Flow down agreements with any DCI carrier are not a significant benefit to Delta pilots. In many cases, flow through agreements are used to somehow justify the loss of scope.

Regarding Compass: NWA pilots took a 30% paycut to buy aircraft for another airline to fly our routes for the promise that we could flow-down and go from a Delta FO making 110k per year to a Compass Captain making 62k per year. "Gee, where do I sign up for that one."

Flows are overrated: If you want to fly for Delta, apply and get hired.