I'm not a proponent of PFT

[Coffee]

Thank you

To answer a question asked earlier, I do not typically drop a bomb in a room and run out. I am working two non-aviation related job and flying for an air ambulance when they call. I am burning my candle at both ends and occasionally in the middle. My hands are not lacking when it comes to work, I just wish I could work one job, maybe engage my girl and fly for a living. I was able to read the thread tonight prior to hitting the sack and appreciate the responses. I am like most of you trying to make the best out of a bad economy without becoming depressed or emotional overwhelmed.

 

[Whirlwind]

Tell them to imagine getting out of the military and having 3 or 4 or 5 thousand hours in jets or turboprops, and going to apply for a job flying a corp jet or a freight jet, and having the chief pilot tell you sorry we are going to hire this 19yr old kid with 300 hours cause he is going to pay us 15k, think you would be pissed? All the hard work you have put in over your career to get to the point where you are at, earning it every step of the way, just to have some little punk with a fat check book take the job from you? Think you would be pissed? He hasn't earned one hour in his whole life, he has just cut a check for everything, and he gets it over you?

I'm not defending PFT here, but I would like to point out one thing.

This is Capitalism at work here. Someone with means can acheve something you cannot, that is how the system works.

YEAH PISSES ME OFF!! BIG TIME! I have never had that happen to me, but I have to friends of mine that are GREAT pilots and have really busted their ass hauling freight, towing banners, flying traffic, and living in their car or a closet the whole time, and who gets the jobs? Kids who's daddy's write a check for everything they ever do so they can have what they want when they want it.

Again, that is the free market system at work. You busted your butt for everything you've got, you worked very hard to build up the time, and this kid just jumps in front of you because his parents have means and can afford it.

One of the students at our flight school just got his private helicopter ticket a month ago. This is six months after he got his fixed-wing ticket. The kid is 17 years old, his father bought him a brand new 172SP to get his fixed-wing ticket in and paid for both ratings. His dad (who is also helo rated) is now buying an almost new Bell Jetranger and paying to have his kid learn to fly it as well.

I worked at Blockbuster Video when I was 17 years old earning $6/hr.

Sucks, eh?

Then again, his father has tons of money, he owns his own personal Citation II/SP, so I guess the 172SP is just a drop in the bucket for him. That kid will never have to be a CFI if he doesn't want to be. When he gets a few years older and insurance will cover him, his dad will just pay to get him typed in the Citation, he can then fly it around logging turbine time without having to bust his butt for it.

Must be nice...

I WORKED for what I have, and I was paid for my time in planes.

The people who can write a check either worked for it somewhere else, or their parents worked for it. In either case, they don't much care that you did it the hard way, they don't see it as their problem.

Again, not defending it or promoting it, just calling it as I see it.

My 2 cents from the cheap seats.

Jason

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Someone with means can acheve something you cannot . . . . You busted your butt for everything you've got, you worked very hard to build up the time, and this kid just jumps in front of you because his parents have means and can afford it . . . . When [this kid] gets a few years older and insurance will cover him, his dad will just pay to get him typed in the Citation, he can then fly it around logging turbine time without having to bust his butt for it.

Must be nice...

Must be. I recall that I first read about P-F-T eleven or twelve years ago in Kit's old rag, Career Pilot magazine. Before I read on my reaction was that aviation was still a rich man's game. And that you can solve most problems just by throwing money at them.

Just in case anyone's asking, I could have put my hands on enough money back then to P-F-T.

The kid may build up his hours in the Citation so he will not have to P-F-T in the strict sense, but it still will be like P-F-Ting. Hopefully, an interview board could determine from the kid's logbook that the Citation hours were paid-for and act appropriately. If the kid sat next to me, which, obviously, he never will, rest assured he would not get any respect from me beyond the requirements of the flight.

 

[46Driver]

"The kid may build up his hours in the Citation so he will not have to P-F-T in the strict sense, but it will still be like PFT'ing."

Situational Ethics, I love it!!!!

 

[SDdriver]

Whirlwind,

I do see our point, and you are right in many ways, we do as you say live in a capitalist sociaty.
That does not change the fact that PFT is a bad thing. My parents had the means to pay my way, also to pay for a job if I wanted it, but I had more respect for myself and the industry as a whole to not do it that way, because I recognized that by doing that, I would not only lose the respect of others, but I would be damaging the very industry that I love and am a part of. Just because you or your parents have the means, doesn't mean that you have to take advantage of it. I remember not to long ago, Avbug making a very good point. The point was the new generation of kids that are entering the industry. THis generation is a generation of people that are use to haveing what they want RIGHT NOW. Look at the interent, fast as possible, I remember when there were only 1200 baud modems and it took days sometimes to d/l files from a BBS. Now that is totaly unacceptable for people, kids today are use to having everything as fast as technology can make it. While that is nice, it violates a very important lesson in life, and that is following a set path to success. When I started flying in 1988 the only way you could make it in this industry was to work through the different steps and jobs, build your time, and then achieve your ultimate goal, which was airlines or flying heavy iron. There were no shortcuts, and because of that, when you had someone that was flying a jet or a large complex aircraft, they REALLY had a lot of good expereince to get to that point and to fall back on when things went in the sh1tter. Now days if you have the means you can skip all of the things in between and go straight to the jets. Sure that is even appealing to me, but I don't do it because I know that I am only depriving myself of some really good experience and selling myself short. I would also be contributing to something that is causing the downfall of this industry, so I chose not to do it.
I will never forget not to long ago, one of my friends, a uncomming pilot that had just finsihed their CFI, was telling me, Yeah, I think I am going to probably go ahead and pay the 15k to go get that job..(there was a specific job we were talking about). I remember me saying, Why in the world are you going to do that, this persons response was (and keep in mind they only had 280hrs) "Well how else am I going to get any turbine time". I was almost sick at t he response I got. THinking to myself, you have no place in a turbine aircraft at 280hrs. You haven't ever had any form of real life flying and you want to go jump into a turbine transport aircraft. I mean they had 8hrs of multi time and they were already thinking TURBINE.
I told this person, you need to instruct for awhile and then get a job flying a light twin, get use to that, and then move up, get some expereince first and then think about turbines when you have a background that you can build on. I remember when I got my multi I wasn't even thinking of turbines, I was thinking, gosh I can't wait to fly that Baron, and then after flying one for awhile, I was thinking gosh I can't wait to fly that King Air, then after that I was looking at jets. But all before that, I was flying pipeline and traffic in singles, getting real world expereince. I guess my point is that nobody these days cares about taking a logical road to jets. It is just, get my basic ratings and I am READY to fly a jet. Well in my book that is not the way it should be done. Guess I am just old school.
BY the way, I am sure you have had this happen and many others, and that is, sitting in the cockpit with a Captain that is a lot more expereinced than you and telling stories about the time you were hauling checks in a beat up old Bonanza, or about how that student almost killed you that time, and things of that nature. What is a 300hr pilot sitting next to a Rj captain going to have to offer up in that conversation. Maybe, yeah hey you won't believe what happend about 3 weeks ago when I was getting my multi...come on, does that instill confidence in you to have someone sitting next to you that doesn't have anything in their background that they are proud of or achieved as a result of hard work? Besides their ratings? Well it doesn't do much for me. I like being able to know that the FO sitting next to me has done some difficult things and had a variaty of aircraft and flying expereinces to get them to that seat.
I have had both of those types in the right seat of my airplane, and I will tell you, the 300hr guys I have had, I was always having to watch them so close and be so alert to the things they were doing, because they were almost always flying blind in a way. They didn't have a clue as to their personal limits and didn't have a clue as to when they were exceeding them. It was so nice to have a guy sitting next to me that had flown freight or hauled checks, or even instructed for awhile, at least then I know that this guy has a good idea of where his limitations are and knows when to say, hey I need help, other than that I didn't have to stress myself out constantly by having to have eagle eyes when this guy was flying. Well I guess I got way to long winded here, sorry for that, and I do see your point and respect your opinion, I just wish these new kids comming up would learn that the road to success is not one that can be bought, it has to be learned and achieved, that is the only way that things are then truley safe, or as safe as they can be.
I just wonder what the general public would think it they knew that the 20yr old kid sitting in the right seat of the jet they are flying on, just got his license a month ago and this was his first job? Do you think they would feel safe? Do you think they would feel as though he had enough experience to handle something if it went wrong, without the help of the Captain? Keep in mind, you can teach a monkey to pass a checkride if you teach him long enough. Only expereince can teach you to be calm and handle huge stress loads and multiple failures under real life conditions.

SD

 

[46Driver]

SDdriver,
What is your perspective on military pilots then? We go from 0 time and start out in turbines - at 300 hours some are flying single seat supersonic fighters.

 

[Whirlwind]

That does not change the fact that PFT is a bad thing.

SDdriver, it is worth pointing out that calling it good or bad depends largely on your own point of view.

To quote Obi Won Kenobi, "you'll find that many of the truths that we cling to in life depend greatly on your own point of view"

To you, me, and lots of other people, PFT is a bad thing. To the kid who can afford to buy his way past you, it is a good thing. He gets to avoid taking the hard path, and instead takes the easy path.

My parents had the means to pay my way, also to pay for a job if I wanted it, but I had more respect for myself and the industry as a whole to not do it that way.

Fair enough...

Just so long as you understand that the kid who can buy his way past you, could care less what you and I think.

Just because you or your parents have the means, doesn't mean that you have to take advantage of it.

If you said that to these kids, you'd get a blank thousand-yard stare back in return.

I remember when there were only 1200 baud modems and it took days sometimes to d/l files from a BBS. Now that is totaly unacceptable for people, kids today are use to having everything as fast as technology can make it.

Hey, my first modem was a 1200 baud Hayes!!!

That being said, you can have my DSL when you take it from my cold, dead hands.

Your point however, is well taken...

Now days if you have the means you can skip all of the things in between and go straight to the jets.

If you have the means, you can just buy the jet.

There does come a point where the person is just looking for something to do, as compared to looking to support a family.

I will never forget not to long ago, one of my friends, a uncomming pilot that had just finsihed their CFI, was telling me, Yeah, I think I am going to probably go ahead and pay the 15k to go get that job..(there was a specific job we were talking about). I remember me saying, Why in the world are you going to do that, this persons response was (and keep in mind they only had 280hrs) "Well how else am I going to get any turbine time". I was almost sick at t he response I got. THinking to myself, you have no place in a turbine aircraft at 280hrs. You haven't ever had any form of real life flying and you want to go jump into a turbine transport aircraft. I mean they had 8hrs of multi time and they were already thinking TURBINE.

I've never flown anything bigger (fixed-wing) than a Cessna 340, and even that was always with a qualified pilot with me.

That being said, for $15,000, I'm sure I could learn the basics for flying a King Air or Citation.

Doesn't mean I'd be ready to go Captain it across the country, but I would be ready to fly right seat with a qualified and experienced Captain for a few years to build up experience.

I did get to fly a twin-turbine helicopter last year, which was a total blast, but that was only for 2 hours, and I would never kid myself into thinking I could go do it again without more training.

I told this person, you need to instruct for awhile and then get a job flying a light twin, get use to that, and then move up, get some expereince first and then think about turbines when you have a background that you can build on.

The military puts 300 hour pilots into large turbine airplanes. Then again they are trained from day one to fly such planes.

A King Air is just a big Baron, more power and more systems, but otherwise it is just an oversized Baron. Any 300 hour pilot can be taught to fly it. I don't think a 300 hour pilot is any safer in a Baron than they would be in a King Air, so long as the training in that aircraft's systems was done properly.

But all before that, I was flying pipeline and traffic in singles, getting real world expereince. I guess my point is that nobody these days cares about taking a logical road to jets. It is just, get my basic ratings and I am READY to fly a jet. Well in my book that is not the way it should be done. Guess I am just old school.

I'd have to refer you back to the start of this post here. You use the term, "logical road to jets". Keep in mind that what is logical to you is absurd to someone else. I have no doubt that many kids these days consider such a path to be "old school", as you put it.

Which is better? They both have their pluses and minues. Personally I'd be just as happy flying traffic watch and jump planes, but then flying jets doesn't interest me anyway.

BY the way, I am sure you have had this happen and many others, and that is, sitting in the cockpit with a Captain that is a lot more expereinced than you and telling stories about the time you were hauling checks in a beat up old Bonanza, or about how that student almost killed you that time, and things of that nature.

I picked experienced CFIs for that very reason, I want more than to learn to fly to standards, I want those personal insights that can only be provided by experience.

They didn't have a clue as to their personal limits and didn't have a clue as to when they were exceeding them. It was so nice to have a guy sitting next to me that had flown freight or hauled checks, or even instructed for awhile, at least then I know that this guy has a good idea of where his limitations are and knows when to say, hey I need help, other than that I didn't have to stress myself out constantly by having to have eagle eyes when this guy was flying.

Believe it or not, I understand...

Having started to fly with students myself, I've just been floored at how blindly they will proceed without thinking.

I have to watch them like a hawk, lest they hurt themselves (and me with them)

Well I guess I got way to long winded here, sorry for that, and I do see your point and respect your opinion, I just wish these new kids comming up would learn that the road to success is not one that can be bought, it has to be learned and achieved, that is the only way that things are then truley safe, or as safe as they can be.

No worries about being long winded, you have strong feelings on the subject.

As for the road to success being bought, that would again depend on your point of view. What is "success"?

That's the ten thousand dollar question...

I just wonder what the general public would think it they knew that the 20yr old kid sitting in the right seat of the jet they are flying on, just got his license a month ago and this was his first job?

I don't think most would even give it a second thought. Airliners just don't crash that often. If this changes, then they will start to care.

Jason

 

[Whirlwind]

SDdriver,
What is your perspective on military pilots then? We go from 0 time and start out in turbines - at 300 hours some are flying single seat supersonic fighters.

I think the difference in training is perhaps the point here...

The average pilot going through your local FBO's Part 61 flight school is not the same product at 300 hours as what the military turns out at 300 hours.

Jason

 

[p.b.]

46Driver- if something goes REALLY wrong mechanically you can eject and save yourself, the 300 hour wonder flying part 121 has at least 30 other people to think of.

SDdriver- I agree with you wholeheartedly, well said.


46, Please don't think I'm saying your job is somehow easy. First, I don't know much about military aviation, and second that isn't the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Timebuilder]

How can I resist?

I had the money for PFT in spades, and due to the wisdom of some experienced pilots, I decided against it.

That's the gist of these PFT threads: education. While some young people (to me that's under 40!!!) may not care a whit what I or anyone else thinks, there are some who will listen to reason, and still turn away from PFT.

Further, we have a mention of the capitalist market in this thread. That's good, but remember that WE are a PART of the market. As mentors and instructors, we can council against PFT. As hiring captains, we can pass over PFT applicants for jobs. As passengers, we can refuse to fly on PFT carriers. As owners, we can step up to the plate and hire qualified people for our airplanes.

Personally, I think that military aviators should only be required to have an MEL certificate, not hundreds of hours in a piston twin or a turboprop to qualify for a 121 job. These guys have already proved their fixed wing abilities. The helo guys should be given the opportunity for fixed wing transition training before they leave the service.

Another 2 cents.

 

[wingnutt]

good post SD...if youre ever in Dallas, i owe you a beer

P.S. 46, military is a whole other ball of wax, you know thats not what hes talking about...

 

[Whirlwind]

good post SD...if youre ever in Dallas, i owe you a beer

P.S. 46, military is a whole other ball of wax, you know thats not what hes talking about...

You're in Dallas? What are you flying these days?

Jason

 

[Whirlwind]

How can I resist?

You can't, you must come over to the dark side.

I had the money for PFT in spades, and due to the wisdom of some experienced pilots, I decided against it.

Good for you! Paying for overall flight time or type ratings is ok, because those can be used at any company. But buying a job is lame.

While some young people (to me that's under 40!!!) may not care a whit what I or anyone else thinks, there are some who will listen to reason, and still turn away from PFT.

Yikes, you must think I'm just a kid then, at the ripe old age of 27.

Personally, I think that military aviators should only be required to have an MEL certificate, not hundreds of hours in a piston twin or a turboprop to qualify for a 121 job.

I would think that is already true. What is it like now for retiring military pilots?

The helo guys should be given the opportunity for fixed wing transition training before they leave the service.

Why? They fly helicopters, not airplanes. Two very different beasts.

Right now, the job market in helicopters is better than in fixed-wings anyway.

Jason

 

[46Driver]

A little background information on military training might help explain the perspective: If you go Navy or Marine, you report to flight school with no promises - you will be assigned jet, helo, prop - or wash out. And because the grading system is on a bell curve, some people are going to wash out (and if you wash out, you still have a 4 year commitment to the military). Those who buy flight time in any airplane ahead of time have a huge advantage over those who have never been in an airplane before. (We have had some Riddle students who came through and just cooked the course - they were spitting out answers before I could finish the question.) Everyone begins with fixed wing training - the 600HP (?) acrobatic T-34C. At the end of fixed wing training, the needs of the Navy determine where (or if) you continue - and what might be good enough grades for jets one week will land you in props or helos the next - its a crapshoot. After everyone does their initial fixed wing training, you go to advanced training (jets, props, or helos). If there is a delay in the pipeline (as there often is), some helo bound students wrangle temporary orders to a reserve helo squadron, get stick time, and then return for helo training with the advantage of already having flown 20 or 30 hours in a helicopter thereby improving their grades substantially. Upon winging, you get your civilian quals. (and if you are winged as a helo pilot, you get your commercial single engine airplane and instrument airplane ratings as well).

You've done a fleet tour and you now come back to instruct. You show up at NAS Whiting, report to the Operations Officer. If you are a fleet fixed wing pilot, you can only instruct fixed wing. If you are a fleet helo pilot, you can instruct either fixed wing or rotary wing - based upon the needs of the Navy that week. If its your lucky day, you get fixed wingf and they will run you through a 70 hour T-34C training course. Off you go to instruct instruments, form, acrobatics with less than 200 hours of fixed wing time. Over the last quarter century, the majority of the Navy and Marine primary fixed wing instructors have been helo pilots.

A few years ago, pilots (with thousands of hours of flight time and experience) were separating from the helo squadrons and being told by regionals airlines that they did not know how to fly - they were given the choice of being a civilian flight instructor (or tow banners) for a few years or PFT'ing. For someone who has been in the cockpit already for the last 10 years, its an easy choice. Later, the regional mins dropped low enough where most of us simply wrote a check for our block time of 100 hours multi-engine fixed wing and droned around PCola shooting the same approaches we did with the helo.

I add this as background experience to explain why most of the pilots at the squadrons really could care less about PFT - it has nothing to do with a military / civilian debate (I've been around long enough to know their are good and bad pilots on both sides.) and more about the definition of the word "qualified." When I started applying, Eagle, Mesa, and AirNet wouldn't even accept my resume, Northwest Airlink said PFT, and ACA, ASA, and Comair said glad to have you - your interview is scheduled for... If any of you are interested (and we have quite a few pilots at my regional who are leaving to join military guard and reserve units - nice change of pace from the daily airline grind) there are a couple of good websites: www.aptap.org and www.airwarriors.com

 

[SDdriver]

46,

Yes as said above military aviation is just a whole different beast. I do respect all military aviatiors!! THey are trained to a very very high standard, but that is the thing, they are constantly trained for that specific job and that specific aircraft and most of their job is just spent training. WHere as in civilian world, we train and then go do the job. I guess to put it in prespective, a military guy might train his entire life and never get to REALLY preform his job. In the sense of WAR. A civilian guy is trained for a short period and then goes out and does the job everyday. He is then brought in every six months and does a checkride to make sure he can still hold to the standards and then sent back out to do the job. Military guys are trained to those standards everyday. That is where I see the difference. Again, I respect the job that out military aviators do and they have proven they ARE THE BEST in the world when it comes to military flying.

Whirlwind,

When I say PFT is bad, I am meaning it has a negative result on the industry as a whole. That fact is proven! It does not have any positive effect on this industry, the only positive effect is on the individual. That individual should remember that he is a part of this industry as a whole, so what he is doing for himself might be good (even though I can argure that it ultimatly is not), he is hurting the industry he is a part of by doing it.

As far as the kid that can buy his way past me could care less what I think. He might care when I am his Captain and I don't respect him for his methods of getting to that right seat. Chances are when he does PFT he will be with someone that will not be happy about him getting there using that method. You might find that he will care then.

15k could teach you the basics of flying that jet or King Air, it could also teach a monkey the basics. But is that 15k going to teach you the experience you need to handle real life problems in that aircraft? No, it will qualify you, but you won't be safe. Hey here is a good one, Do you think a guy that just got his Multi is a SAFE multi-engine pilot? I don't think so, only after flying multis for awhile are you going to gain the skills nessesary to be safe and calm when the sh1t hits the fan. Just because you are qualified doesn't make you safe.

Logical Road, ok here is what I mean.

Does a fresh attorney just out of Law School get selected to be a Supreme Court Justice? No, after long years of working with many law firms and gaining knowledge and expereince is he then prepared to handle such a task, why, because he can fall back on his life expereince comming up through the ranks, to help him when he is faced with a tough court decision. Just like a pilot, when he is in that jet and something that has never happened before happens, if he had a diverse career of flying bad equipment in bad weather and dealing with emergencies in far less complex aircraft, he will be more prepared for the task at hand, rather than only having his days in a 172 to fall back on. How can you really relate anything from a 172 to a CRj? Sure maybe something as basic as turning or climbing, but other than that it is totaly different. He has nothing to fall back on.

Good story, I think I wrote it in my saulte to the shorts post. I have pics on there also if you want to check them out.
My co-pilot and I were climbing out one morning and we were in the soup, (BTW my C0-pilot had about 450hrs NON PFT, just got lucky with the job), when we poped out at 4000 into the clear there was a flock of about 50 or so ducks comming opposite direction and we ran directly into them. WE took 9 total strikes, one came through the windscreen on my side and one hit my Co-Pilots windshield and covered it in guts and blood, it was his leg, but now he couldn't see. So I had to take it, but I had 3 below zero air rushing into my face, plus being spattered with glass and guts, we had one ingested in the motor and I had to get this thing on the ground. The weather was 200 1/2, A situation that had never happened to me in my career, but the first thing I thought of was some of the times when I lost motors in light twins on T/O..or when I lost electrical at night, when I had a BE200 auto pilot run away on me in the climb and wouldn't disconnect, all of these things helped me to remain calm, evaluate the situation and handle it based on expereince that I had in my flying career up to this point. So I was able to manage it without incendent. Now imagine if I had never had one incedent in my life because really I only had 300- or 400 hrs. Do you think I would have been able to be so calm? Do you think just cause I was qualified in the airplane it would have made any difference? My Co-Pilot was really shaken up, but he looked to me and said, I know you have had all kinds of things happen to you before, so I know I am going to be ok. He felt safe because he knew I had experience to turn to, even though he didn't. Now imagine same situation except in an Rj and the Captain is knocked unconcious, FO has 300hrs of flying 172s and such under training conditions bascically. Now he has this situation and 40 people in the back freaking out. What do you think the chances are of a successful outcome? I wouldn''t say impossible, but not good. Now if he had 1300 or 1500hrs and in all those hours had been hauling checks, or freight at night in crappy planes, having problems when he is by himself with some boxes, having students almost kill him while CFI'ing or teaching Multis, building time and hours in a logical progression of aircraft that he can handle at his given experience level, do you think that guy might be able to handle it better? Do you think the chances of success are better? DO you think the PAXz are goign to be more trusting of their lives to the guy with 300hrs or the guy with 1500hrs and the differences in expereince of both. I hope you see my point.

Please don't take this situation to literaly, I mean there are always ways to pick things apart and what ifs. My point is you start in 152s you then move to 182rgs then you move to Barons, then to King Airs, then to Saabs, then to Rjs. That is logical progression, throughout all of those small steps up, you gain a little biit more knowledge and skill, but you arn't exceeding your limitations. By the time you get to the Jet, your level of skill and expereince is commensurate. Going from the 172 to the jet, leaves way to much behind in terms of skill and expereince. Doing that is overexceeding your limitations 10 fold. Even though you can pass the checkride, the ride that you know exactly what is going to happen and when. It is the unexpected that kills you.

Hope that helps understand my views. I am yes very against PFT because of these reasons and others. Not only the saftey, but the negative effects it has on us as a whole.

Hey thanks guys for all of your insights, this has reallly become a thread that I have enjoyed. You all have great opinions and I REALLY appreciate all of them! Check out my pics on the shorts thread..there should be a link for them. Pretty cool stuff. Fly safe fellows..

SD

 

[Whirlwind]

Whirlwind,

When I say PFT is bad, I am meaning it has a negative result on the industry as a whole. That fact is proven! It does not have any positive effect on this industry, the only positive effect is on the individual.

I totally agree, and if my last posts implied otherwise, then I wasn't being clear.

My point is that some individuals don't care about anyone else, just themselves.

That individual should remember that he is a part of this industry as a whole, so what he is doing for himself might be good (even though I can argure that it ultimatly is not), he is hurting the industry he is a part of by doing it.

Ultimatly, he probably could care less about the industry in the long run. Sad? Perhaps, but nothing you or I say will make one wiff of difference.

As far as the kid that can buy his way past me could care less what I think. He might care when I am his Captain and I don't respect him for his methods of getting to that right seat.

Ahh, he still might not care, you never know...

15k could teach you the basics of flying that jet or King Air, it could also teach a monkey the basics. But is that 15k going to teach you the experience you need to handle real life problems in that aircraft? No, it will qualify you, but you won't be safe.

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I'm willing to bet that you could take my fixed-wing CFI who has 1,500 hours total time and 170 multi, spend $15K on her to train her to fly a King Air, and I'll bet she would be safe.

Highly experience in the King Air? No, but then no one is when flying a new type of airplane. I'd still say she was safe, and if I was looking to buy a King Air for myself, I'd be comfortable with her flying it once she got the proper training. Send her off to FSI for two weeks (or however long it takes) to get her qualified, then I'd be comfortable with her flying it.

Hey here is a good one, Do you think a guy that just got his Multi is a SAFE multi-engine pilot?

Some are, some aren't. Some are never safe, even after thousands of hours. Others may be safe from minute one, because of their safe attiude. Experienced? No, but knowing your limits and respecting the airplane goes a long way.

How can you really relate anything from a 172 to a CRj? Sure maybe something as basic as turning or climbing, but other than that it is totaly different. He has nothing to fall back on.

Not having flown a CRJ, I can't comment.

What I can say is that I can fly different kinds of helicopters without needing thousands of hours in each model to be safe.

Now imagine if I had never had one incedent in my life because really I only had 300- or 400 hrs.

Now that isn't fair, it all depends on each pilot's experience.

I've had a few experiences that would raise your blood pressure, and I didn't even have a co-pilot. I'm still here, but I used up some of that bag of luck to get here.

My Co-Pilot was really shaken up, but he looked to me and said, I know you have had all kinds of things happen to you before, so I know I am going to be ok.

It totally depends on the person. Me? That would not have freaked me out, just remember rule number one, two, and three:

Fly the plane
Fly the plane
Fly the plane

I've lost electrical power, at night, in IMC, over empty countryside in total darkness, and I got out of it because I remembered the first three rules of flight.

No need for panic, just know that as long as the wings are still attached and the spinning thing up front is turning, nothing else really matters.

He felt safe because he knew I had experience to turn to, even though he didn't.

That alone for me wouldn't be enough. I've flown with some higher time pilots, some are very good and some really scare me.

Now imagine same situation except in an Rj and the Captain is knocked unconcious, FO has 300hrs of flying 172s and such under training conditions bascically.

No problem, it's just a plane with wings and engines, just fly it.

Hell, I've never flown a jet, but I have confidence that I could land a CRJ in such a situation. It wouldn't be pretty and the plane might or might not be reuseable again, but we'd survive.

DO you think the PAXz are goign to be more trusting of their lives to the guy with 300hrs or the guy with 1500hrs and the differences in expereince of both. I hope you see my point.

As the pilot, I don't really much give a damm what they think. No one on the ground can climb up and jump into the plane, so I'm what they've got to work with. They can all just sit down and shut up and let me fly.

My point is you start in 152s you then move to 182rgs then you move to Barons, then to King Airs, then to Saabs, then to Rjs. That is logical progression, throughout all of those small steps up, you gain a little biit more knowledge and skill, but you arn't exceeding your limitations.

So forever, for all time, everyone must start out in little puddle jumpers?

If someone wants to learn to fly in a Bonanza A-36, I'd be happy to teach them. Why not? Sure, it will take longer than in a 152, but if they've got the time and money...

If you learned to fly in 172s and want to buy a King Air, you're going to need intensive training, but I think it is incorrect to say that you can't make that jump. The key is to provide enough training in the King Air to provide enough experience for the pilot to be able to fly it on their own.

Then it takes a pilot who understands he needs to build time and experience in the King Air in good conditions before trying to make those 200 1/2 landings.

My 2 cents from the cheap seats.

Jason

 

[wingnutt]

holy crap man, you spend all that time dissecting his posts, breaking down every little comment, and quite frankly saying very little, when you really said it all in the first line...

I totally agree, and if my last posts implied otherwise, then I wasn't being clear.

 

[Whirlwind]

holy crap man, you spend all that time dissecting his posts, breaking down every little comment, and quite frankly saying very little, when you really said it all in the first line...

Ahh, well... I'm bored, no flying right now, we've got storms moving in so I'm just sitting up here at the airport with nothing better to do but surf on the computer.

I suppose I should go home, but I'd rather go flying...

Jason

 

[SDdriver]

Ok,

Well lets see..


As far as the person not caring no matter what, well I can ASURE you that will catch up to him and kick him in the ass in full force sooner or later. You just can't go through life not giving a damm about anything, and you sure can't work in an industry this small and it not catch up with you.

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I'm willing to bet that you could take my fixed-wing CFI who has 1,500 hours total time and 170 multi, spend $15K on her to train her to fly a King Air, and I'll bet she would be safe.

She would be competent yes, safe maybe, but experienced not really. I will say this though, 1500hrs and she would be a lot safer than a 300hr pilot. Remember we are talking about guys with 300 to 400hrs here, not people with 1500hrs. She has probably seen a lot in her 1500hrs especially if she has been instucting that whole time. I would trust her a lot more than a 300hr guy that you trained in that King Air.

knowing your limits and respecting the airplane goes a long way.

Exactly, I know at 300hrs I didn't really respect aircraft. Hence the phrase "the cocky 100hr pilot." If you only have 300hrs you haven't yet got to the point where you really respect aircraft.

Now that isn't fair, it all depends on each pilot's experience.

I've had a few experiences that would raise your blood pressure, and I didn't even have a co-pilot. I'm still here, but I used up some of that bag of luck to get here.

That is my point exactly, those experiences would help you to be ready for the next airplane you fly. Without those experiences you would have nothing to fall back on. It is those expereinces, without a Co-Pilot or Captain that hep you when you get to the complex aircraft.

No problem, it's just a plane with wings and engines, just fly it.

Hell, I've never flown a jet, but I have confidence that I could land a CRJ in such a situation. It wouldn't be pretty and the plane might or might not be reuseable again, but we'd survive.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I use to think when I was a private pilot and even after I became a commercial pilot and had my multi, that I could land a jet if something happened to the pilot, having never flown one before. Well when you ever fly a jet you tell me if you feel the same way. Just cause it has wings and a motor they don't act like planes at that point. Most don't fly without motors, they are just not built like a 172. When you get to a transport aircraft things get different, speeds are everything, you now are dealing with flaps, slats, speed brakes and spoilers and TR's. It is not just fly it in and land it. You get below the ref speeds and if you don't have the thing configured right it will fall out of the sky. I doubt very seriously that anyone would make it through that landing. Not only would the plane be unusable, everyone would probably be dead. It is just not the same in Transport size aircraft.

As the pilot, I don't really much give a damm what they think. No one on the ground can climb up and jump into the plane, so I'm what they've got to work with. They can all just sit down and shut up and let me fly.

Well flying paying Paxs you better care what they think, cause without them you don't have a job. Remember TWA? Once people lose faith and trust, it is over.

So forever, for all time, everyone must start out in little puddle jumpers?

If someone wants to learn to fly in a Bonanza A-36, I'd be happy to teach them. Why not? Sure, it will take longer than in a 152, but if they've got the time and money...

Sure you can get your private in a 737 if you have enough money. Do you think that is a logical thing to do though? As long as I can remember in aviation, people have started out in trainers to learn the fundementals of flight, and to learn how to use those skills to fly an airplane. Starting in a King Air would be a foolish thing for someone to do, they would be making things so hard on themselves and setting themselves up for failure. Even though I have seen guys who got their PPL in a Navajo. Smart, no. DO you think they could go fly a 172 after that? Not really.
You have to learn to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. It is just how things are done. There are exceptions, but there are exceptions to every rule, that is not to say it is the safest nor the smartest thing.

You brought up some good questions. Thanks for engaging in the conversation, it is a learning expereince for us all.

Sd

 

[Whirlwind]

Ok,

Well lets see..

As far as the person not caring no matter what, well I can ASURE you that will catch up to him and kick him in the ass in full force sooner or later. You just can't go through life not giving a damm about anything, and you sure can't work in an industry this small and it not catch up with you.

Of course it will, but he'll get pretty far before that happens.

I've flown with him in his 172SP and I've taken him flying in my helicopter. My personal opinion is that he's a young kid who doesn't think far enough ahead, and doesn't give radio procedures enough attention.

At no time did I think he was going to crash, but he's still wet behind the ears.

I suppose you could say the same about me too, but I have a lot more respect for the aircraft than most low time pilots seem to.

She would be competent yes, safe maybe, but experienced not really.

Oh, I wouldn't for one second think she would be experienced. I'm just saying she would be competent and my personal feeling is that she'd be safe. But then I've flown 100 hours with her in the past year, largely because I consider her to be very focused on safety.

I've flown with some 1,000 hour CFIs who I won't fly with because I don't think they are safe enough.

I will say this though, 1500hrs and she would be a lot safer than a 300hr pilot. Remember we are talking about guys with 300 to 400hrs here, not people with 1500hrs.

True enough...

She has probably seen a lot in her 1500hrs especially if she has been instucting that whole time. I would trust her a lot more than a 300hr guy that you trained in that King Air.

Yep, about 1,200 of that is dual given... I already know I'd trust her in a King Air. I wouldn't have spent the past year flying with her working on my fixed-wing add-on ratings if I didn't totally and completely trust her.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I use to think when I was a private pilot and even after I became a commercial pilot and had my multi, that I could land a jet if something happened to the pilot, having never flown one before.

Totally shooting from the hip here, but if able, I'd get on the radio and ask a few questions to fellow CRJ pilots in the area.

I'd want to know what clean stalling speed is, what max flap/gear extention speed is, and what normal landing speed is.

The idea is to keep it in the air, above all else. As for landing, I'd make a few pratice landing approaches while still at altitude, to get an idea of how it handled at slower speeds. If it started to fall, I could apply full power to recover.

I'd need to know where the arming switch/lever for the spoilers is, where the flaps switch/lever is, and where the gear handle is.

I'd probably be well behind the airplane quite a bit of the time, but assuming the plane itself wasn't coming apart and there was fuel onboard, I'd make a low approach to the runway to get a sight picture while adding to the overall experience, then climb back up and fly another pattern or two, to get more feel for it.

The idea is to put it down on the longest runway in the area (DFW's 13,800ft runway would be nice) and survive.

Would it work? I have no idea, but I'd get a kick out of trying. Then again, if somehow I was called upon to do it, something really horrible has gone wrong, so maybe I don't want to try it.

I suppose landing the 737 in MSFS doesn't count, eh?

Well when you ever fly a jet you tell me if you feel the same way.

You might be right... but hey, I saw Airplane! so how hard can it be?!?!

Well flying paying Paxs you better care what they think, cause without them you don't have a job. Remember TWA? Once people lose faith and trust, it is over.

Oh, you misunderstood me. I meant in an emergency situation like I described above, where somehow it was poor ol me trying to land that CRJ.

Sure you can get your private in a 737 if you have enough money. Do you think that is a logical thing to do though?

Eh, that might well be legal, but it sounds kinda stupid to me.

How about learning to fly in a Cessna Caravan?

As long as I can remember in aviation, people have started out in trainers to learn the fundementals of flight, and to learn how to use those skills to fly an airplane.

Doesn't the military start people off in T-34 trainers? Aren't those turbine powered airplanes?

You brought up some good questions. Thanks for engaging in the conversation, it is a learning expereince for us all.

Yep, and I've learned a lot from the people on this forum. I don't have any jet experience, and my turbine helicopter experience probably doesn't carry over very well.

Fly safe!

Jason