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I'm not a proponent of PFT
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Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2002
- Posts
- 356
Timebuilder said:
You can't, you must come over to the dark side.
Good for you! Paying for overall flight time or type ratings is ok, because those can be used at any company. But buying a job is lame.
Yikes, you must think I'm just a kid then, at the ripe old age of 27.
I would think that is already true. What is it like now for retiring military pilots?
Why? They fly helicopters, not airplanes. Two very different beasts.
Right now, the job market in helicopters is better than in fixed-wings anyway.
Jason
A little background information on military training might help explain the perspective: If you go Navy or Marine, you report to flight school with no promises - you will be assigned jet, helo, prop - or wash out. And because the grading system is on a bell curve, some people are going to wash out (and if you wash out, you still have a 4 year commitment to the military). Those who buy flight time in any airplane ahead of time have a huge advantage over those who have never been in an airplane before. (We have had some Riddle students who came through and just cooked the course - they were spitting out answers before I could finish the question.) Everyone begins with fixed wing training - the 600HP (?) acrobatic T-34C. At the end of fixed wing training, the needs of the Navy determine where (or if) you continue - and what might be good enough grades for jets one week will land you in props or helos the next - its a crapshoot. After everyone does their initial fixed wing training, you go to advanced training (jets, props, or helos). If there is a delay in the pipeline (as there often is), some helo bound students wrangle temporary orders to a reserve helo squadron, get stick time, and then return for helo training with the advantage of already having flown 20 or 30 hours in a helicopter thereby improving their grades substantially. Upon winging, you get your civilian quals. (and if you are winged as a helo pilot, you get your commercial single engine airplane and instrument airplane ratings as well).
You've done a fleet tour and you now come back to instruct. You show up at NAS Whiting, report to the Operations Officer. If you are a fleet fixed wing pilot, you can only instruct fixed wing. If you are a fleet helo pilot, you can instruct either fixed wing or rotary wing - based upon the needs of the Navy that week. If its your lucky day, you get fixed wingf and they will run you through a 70 hour T-34C training course. Off you go to instruct instruments, form, acrobatics with less than 200 hours of fixed wing time. Over the last quarter century, the majority of the Navy and Marine primary fixed wing instructors have been helo pilots.
A few years ago, pilots (with thousands of hours of flight time and experience) were separating from the helo squadrons and being told by regionals airlines that they did not know how to fly - they were given the choice of being a civilian flight instructor (or tow banners) for a few years or PFT'ing. For someone who has been in the cockpit already for the last 10 years, its an easy choice. Later, the regional mins dropped low enough where most of us simply wrote a check for our block time of 100 hours multi-engine fixed wing and droned around PCola shooting the same approaches we did with the helo.
I add this as background experience to explain why most of the pilots at the squadrons really could care less about PFT - it has nothing to do with a military / civilian debate (I've been around long enough to know their are good and bad pilots on both sides.) and more about the definition of the word "qualified." When I started applying, Eagle, Mesa, and AirNet wouldn't even accept my resume, Northwest Airlink said PFT, and ACA, ASA, and Comair said glad to have you - your interview is scheduled for... If any of you are interested (and we have quite a few pilots at my regional who are leaving to join military guard and reserve units - nice change of pace from the daily airline grind) there are a couple of good websites: www.aptap.org and www.airwarriors.com
You've done a fleet tour and you now come back to instruct. You show up at NAS Whiting, report to the Operations Officer. If you are a fleet fixed wing pilot, you can only instruct fixed wing. If you are a fleet helo pilot, you can instruct either fixed wing or rotary wing - based upon the needs of the Navy that week. If its your lucky day, you get fixed wingf and they will run you through a 70 hour T-34C training course. Off you go to instruct instruments, form, acrobatics with less than 200 hours of fixed wing time. Over the last quarter century, the majority of the Navy and Marine primary fixed wing instructors have been helo pilots.
A few years ago, pilots (with thousands of hours of flight time and experience) were separating from the helo squadrons and being told by regionals airlines that they did not know how to fly - they were given the choice of being a civilian flight instructor (or tow banners) for a few years or PFT'ing. For someone who has been in the cockpit already for the last 10 years, its an easy choice. Later, the regional mins dropped low enough where most of us simply wrote a check for our block time of 100 hours multi-engine fixed wing and droned around PCola shooting the same approaches we did with the helo.
I add this as background experience to explain why most of the pilots at the squadrons really could care less about PFT - it has nothing to do with a military / civilian debate (I've been around long enough to know their are good and bad pilots on both sides.) and more about the definition of the word "qualified." When I started applying, Eagle, Mesa, and AirNet wouldn't even accept my resume, Northwest Airlink said PFT, and ACA, ASA, and Comair said glad to have you - your interview is scheduled for... If any of you are interested (and we have quite a few pilots at my regional who are leaving to join military guard and reserve units - nice change of pace from the daily airline grind) there are a couple of good websites: www.aptap.org and www.airwarriors.com
Last edited:
SDdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 238
46,
Yes as said above military aviation is just a whole different beast. I do respect all military aviatiors!! THey are trained to a very very high standard, but that is the thing, they are constantly trained for that specific job and that specific aircraft and most of their job is just spent training. WHere as in civilian world, we train and then go do the job. I guess to put it in prespective, a military guy might train his entire life and never get to REALLY preform his job. In the sense of WAR. A civilian guy is trained for a short period and then goes out and does the job everyday. He is then brought in every six months and does a checkride to make sure he can still hold to the standards and then sent back out to do the job. Military guys are trained to those standards everyday. That is where I see the difference. Again, I respect the job that out military aviators do and they have proven they ARE THE BEST in the world when it comes to military flying.
Whirlwind,
When I say PFT is bad, I am meaning it has a negative result on the industry as a whole. That fact is proven! It does not have any positive effect on this industry, the only positive effect is on the individual. That individual should remember that he is a part of this industry as a whole, so what he is doing for himself might be good (even though I can argure that it ultimatly is not), he is hurting the industry he is a part of by doing it.
As far as the kid that can buy his way past me could care less what I think. He might care when I am his Captain and I don't respect him for his methods of getting to that right seat. Chances are when he does PFT he will be with someone that will not be happy about him getting there using that method. You might find that he will care then.
15k could teach you the basics of flying that jet or King Air, it could also teach a monkey the basics. But is that 15k going to teach you the experience you need to handle real life problems in that aircraft? No, it will qualify you, but you won't be safe. Hey here is a good one, Do you think a guy that just got his Multi is a SAFE multi-engine pilot? I don't think so, only after flying multis for awhile are you going to gain the skills nessesary to be safe and calm when the sh1t hits the fan. Just because you are qualified doesn't make you safe.
Logical Road, ok here is what I mean.
Does a fresh attorney just out of Law School get selected to be a Supreme Court Justice? No, after long years of working with many law firms and gaining knowledge and expereince is he then prepared to handle such a task, why, because he can fall back on his life expereince comming up through the ranks, to help him when he is faced with a tough court decision. Just like a pilot, when he is in that jet and something that has never happened before happens, if he had a diverse career of flying bad equipment in bad weather and dealing with emergencies in far less complex aircraft, he will be more prepared for the task at hand, rather than only having his days in a 172 to fall back on. How can you really relate anything from a 172 to a CRj? Sure maybe something as basic as turning or climbing, but other than that it is totaly different. He has nothing to fall back on.
Good story, I think I wrote it in my saulte to the shorts post. I have pics on there also if you want to check them out.
My co-pilot and I were climbing out one morning and we were in the soup, (BTW my C0-pilot had about 450hrs NON PFT, just got lucky with the job), when we poped out at 4000 into the clear there was a flock of about 50 or so ducks comming opposite direction and we ran directly into them. WE took 9 total strikes, one came through the windscreen on my side and one hit my Co-Pilots windshield and covered it in guts and blood, it was his leg, but now he couldn't see. So I had to take it, but I had 3 below zero air rushing into my face, plus being spattered with glass and guts, we had one ingested in the motor and I had to get this thing on the ground. The weather was 200 1/2, A situation that had never happened to me in my career, but the first thing I thought of was some of the times when I lost motors in light twins on T/O..or when I lost electrical at night, when I had a BE200 auto pilot run away on me in the climb and wouldn't disconnect, all of these things helped me to remain calm, evaluate the situation and handle it based on expereince that I had in my flying career up to this point. So I was able to manage it without incendent. Now imagine if I had never had one incedent in my life because really I only had 300- or 400 hrs. Do you think I would have been able to be so calm? Do you think just cause I was qualified in the airplane it would have made any difference? My Co-Pilot was really shaken up, but he looked to me and said, I know you have had all kinds of things happen to you before, so I know I am going to be ok. He felt safe because he knew I had experience to turn to, even though he didn't. Now imagine same situation except in an Rj and the Captain is knocked unconcious, FO has 300hrs of flying 172s and such under training conditions bascically. Now he has this situation and 40 people in the back freaking out. What do you think the chances are of a successful outcome? I wouldn''t say impossible, but not good. Now if he had 1300 or 1500hrs and in all those hours had been hauling checks, or freight at night in crappy planes, having problems when he is by himself with some boxes, having students almost kill him while CFI'ing or teaching Multis, building time and hours in a logical progression of aircraft that he can handle at his given experience level, do you think that guy might be able to handle it better? Do you think the chances of success are better? DO you think the PAXz are goign to be more trusting of their lives to the guy with 300hrs or the guy with 1500hrs and the differences in expereince of both. I hope you see my point.
Please don't take this situation to literaly, I mean there are always ways to pick things apart and what ifs. My point is you start in 152s you then move to 182rgs then you move to Barons, then to King Airs, then to Saabs, then to Rjs. That is logical progression, throughout all of those small steps up, you gain a little biit more knowledge and skill, but you arn't exceeding your limitations. By the time you get to the Jet, your level of skill and expereince is commensurate. Going from the 172 to the jet, leaves way to much behind in terms of skill and expereince. Doing that is overexceeding your limitations 10 fold. Even though you can pass the checkride, the ride that you know exactly what is going to happen and when. It is the unexpected that kills you.
Hope that helps understand my views. I am yes very against PFT because of these reasons and others. Not only the saftey, but the negative effects it has on us as a whole.
Hey thanks guys for all of your insights, this has reallly become a thread that I have enjoyed. You all have great opinions and I REALLY appreciate all of them! Check out my pics on the shorts thread..there should be a link for them. Pretty cool stuff. Fly safe fellows..
SD
Yes as said above military aviation is just a whole different beast. I do respect all military aviatiors!! THey are trained to a very very high standard, but that is the thing, they are constantly trained for that specific job and that specific aircraft and most of their job is just spent training. WHere as in civilian world, we train and then go do the job. I guess to put it in prespective, a military guy might train his entire life and never get to REALLY preform his job. In the sense of WAR. A civilian guy is trained for a short period and then goes out and does the job everyday. He is then brought in every six months and does a checkride to make sure he can still hold to the standards and then sent back out to do the job. Military guys are trained to those standards everyday. That is where I see the difference. Again, I respect the job that out military aviators do and they have proven they ARE THE BEST in the world when it comes to military flying.
Whirlwind,
When I say PFT is bad, I am meaning it has a negative result on the industry as a whole. That fact is proven! It does not have any positive effect on this industry, the only positive effect is on the individual. That individual should remember that he is a part of this industry as a whole, so what he is doing for himself might be good (even though I can argure that it ultimatly is not), he is hurting the industry he is a part of by doing it.
As far as the kid that can buy his way past me could care less what I think. He might care when I am his Captain and I don't respect him for his methods of getting to that right seat. Chances are when he does PFT he will be with someone that will not be happy about him getting there using that method. You might find that he will care then.
15k could teach you the basics of flying that jet or King Air, it could also teach a monkey the basics. But is that 15k going to teach you the experience you need to handle real life problems in that aircraft? No, it will qualify you, but you won't be safe. Hey here is a good one, Do you think a guy that just got his Multi is a SAFE multi-engine pilot? I don't think so, only after flying multis for awhile are you going to gain the skills nessesary to be safe and calm when the sh1t hits the fan. Just because you are qualified doesn't make you safe.
Logical Road, ok here is what I mean.
Does a fresh attorney just out of Law School get selected to be a Supreme Court Justice? No, after long years of working with many law firms and gaining knowledge and expereince is he then prepared to handle such a task, why, because he can fall back on his life expereince comming up through the ranks, to help him when he is faced with a tough court decision. Just like a pilot, when he is in that jet and something that has never happened before happens, if he had a diverse career of flying bad equipment in bad weather and dealing with emergencies in far less complex aircraft, he will be more prepared for the task at hand, rather than only having his days in a 172 to fall back on. How can you really relate anything from a 172 to a CRj? Sure maybe something as basic as turning or climbing, but other than that it is totaly different. He has nothing to fall back on.
Good story, I think I wrote it in my saulte to the shorts post. I have pics on there also if you want to check them out.
My co-pilot and I were climbing out one morning and we were in the soup, (BTW my C0-pilot had about 450hrs NON PFT, just got lucky with the job), when we poped out at 4000 into the clear there was a flock of about 50 or so ducks comming opposite direction and we ran directly into them. WE took 9 total strikes, one came through the windscreen on my side and one hit my Co-Pilots windshield and covered it in guts and blood, it was his leg, but now he couldn't see. So I had to take it, but I had 3 below zero air rushing into my face, plus being spattered with glass and guts, we had one ingested in the motor and I had to get this thing on the ground. The weather was 200 1/2, A situation that had never happened to me in my career, but the first thing I thought of was some of the times when I lost motors in light twins on T/O..or when I lost electrical at night, when I had a BE200 auto pilot run away on me in the climb and wouldn't disconnect, all of these things helped me to remain calm, evaluate the situation and handle it based on expereince that I had in my flying career up to this point. So I was able to manage it without incendent. Now imagine if I had never had one incedent in my life because really I only had 300- or 400 hrs. Do you think I would have been able to be so calm? Do you think just cause I was qualified in the airplane it would have made any difference? My Co-Pilot was really shaken up, but he looked to me and said, I know you have had all kinds of things happen to you before, so I know I am going to be ok. He felt safe because he knew I had experience to turn to, even though he didn't. Now imagine same situation except in an Rj and the Captain is knocked unconcious, FO has 300hrs of flying 172s and such under training conditions bascically. Now he has this situation and 40 people in the back freaking out. What do you think the chances are of a successful outcome? I wouldn''t say impossible, but not good. Now if he had 1300 or 1500hrs and in all those hours had been hauling checks, or freight at night in crappy planes, having problems when he is by himself with some boxes, having students almost kill him while CFI'ing or teaching Multis, building time and hours in a logical progression of aircraft that he can handle at his given experience level, do you think that guy might be able to handle it better? Do you think the chances of success are better? DO you think the PAXz are goign to be more trusting of their lives to the guy with 300hrs or the guy with 1500hrs and the differences in expereince of both. I hope you see my point.
Please don't take this situation to literaly, I mean there are always ways to pick things apart and what ifs. My point is you start in 152s you then move to 182rgs then you move to Barons, then to King Airs, then to Saabs, then to Rjs. That is logical progression, throughout all of those small steps up, you gain a little biit more knowledge and skill, but you arn't exceeding your limitations. By the time you get to the Jet, your level of skill and expereince is commensurate. Going from the 172 to the jet, leaves way to much behind in terms of skill and expereince. Doing that is overexceeding your limitations 10 fold. Even though you can pass the checkride, the ride that you know exactly what is going to happen and when. It is the unexpected that kills you.
Hope that helps understand my views. I am yes very against PFT because of these reasons and others. Not only the saftey, but the negative effects it has on us as a whole.
Hey thanks guys for all of your insights, this has reallly become a thread that I have enjoyed. You all have great opinions and I REALLY appreciate all of them! Check out my pics on the shorts thread..there should be a link for them. Pretty cool stuff. Fly safe fellows..
SD
Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2002
- Posts
- 356
SDdriver said:
I totally agree, and if my last posts implied otherwise, then I wasn't being clear.
My point is that some individuals don't care about anyone else, just themselves.
Ultimatly, he probably could care less about the industry in the long run. Sad? Perhaps, but nothing you or I say will make one wiff of difference.
Ahh, he still might not care, you never know...
Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I'm willing to bet that you could take my fixed-wing CFI who has 1,500 hours total time and 170 multi, spend $15K on her to train her to fly a King Air, and I'll bet she would be safe.
Highly experience in the King Air? No, but then no one is when flying a new type of airplane. I'd still say she was safe, and if I was looking to buy a King Air for myself, I'd be comfortable with her flying it once she got the proper training. Send her off to FSI for two weeks (or however long it takes) to get her qualified, then I'd be comfortable with her flying it.
Some are, some aren't. Some are never safe, even after thousands of hours. Others may be safe from minute one, because of their safe attiude. Experienced? No, but knowing your limits and respecting the airplane goes a long way.
Not having flown a CRJ, I can't comment.
What I can say is that I can fly different kinds of helicopters without needing thousands of hours in each model to be safe.
Now that isn't fair, it all depends on each pilot's experience.
I've had a few experiences that would raise your blood pressure, and I didn't even have a co-pilot. I'm still here, but I used up some of that bag of luck to get here.
It totally depends on the person. Me? That would not have freaked me out, just remember rule number one, two, and three:
Fly the plane
Fly the plane
Fly the plane
I've lost electrical power, at night, in IMC, over empty countryside in total darkness, and I got out of it because I remembered the first three rules of flight.
No need for panic, just know that as long as the wings are still attached and the spinning thing up front is turning, nothing else really matters.
That alone for me wouldn't be enough. I've flown with some higher time pilots, some are very good and some really scare me.
No problem, it's just a plane with wings and engines, just fly it.
Hell, I've never flown a jet, but I have confidence that I could land a CRJ in such a situation. It wouldn't be pretty and the plane might or might not be reuseable again, but we'd survive.
As the pilot, I don't really much give a damm what they think. No one on the ground can climb up and jump into the plane, so I'm what they've got to work with. They can all just sit down and shut up and let me fly.
So forever, for all time, everyone must start out in little puddle jumpers?
If someone wants to learn to fly in a Bonanza A-36, I'd be happy to teach them. Why not? Sure, it will take longer than in a 152, but if they've got the time and money...
If you learned to fly in 172s and want to buy a King Air, you're going to need intensive training, but I think it is incorrect to say that you can't make that jump. The key is to provide enough training in the King Air to provide enough experience for the pilot to be able to fly it on their own.
Then it takes a pilot who understands he needs to build time and experience in the King Air in good conditions before trying to make those 200 1/2 landings.
My 2 cents from the cheap seats.
Jason
Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2002
- Posts
- 356
wingnutt said:holy crap man, you spend all that time dissecting his posts, breaking down every little comment, and quite frankly saying very little, when you really said it all in the first line...
Ahh, well... I'm bored, no flying right now, we've got storms moving in so I'm just sitting up here at the airport with nothing better to do but surf on the computer.
I suppose I should go home, but I'd rather go flying...
Jason
SDdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 238
Ok,
Well lets see..
As far as the person not caring no matter what, well I can ASURE you that will catch up to him and kick him in the ass in full force sooner or later. You just can't go through life not giving a damm about anything, and you sure can't work in an industry this small and it not catch up with you.
She would be competent yes, safe maybe, but experienced not really. I will say this though, 1500hrs and she would be a lot safer than a 300hr pilot. Remember we are talking about guys with 300 to 400hrs here, not people with 1500hrs. She has probably seen a lot in her 1500hrs especially if she has been instucting that whole time. I would trust her a lot more than a 300hr guy that you trained in that King Air.
Exactly, I know at 300hrs I didn't really respect aircraft. Hence the phrase "the cocky 100hr pilot." If you only have 300hrs you haven't yet got to the point where you really respect aircraft.
That is my point exactly, those experiences would help you to be ready for the next airplane you fly. Without those experiences you would have nothing to fall back on. It is those expereinces, without a Co-Pilot or Captain that hep you when you get to the complex aircraft.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I use to think when I was a private pilot and even after I became a commercial pilot and had my multi, that I could land a jet if something happened to the pilot, having never flown one before. Well when you ever fly a jet you tell me if you feel the same way. Just cause it has wings and a motor they don't act like planes at that point. Most don't fly without motors, they are just not built like a 172. When you get to a transport aircraft things get different, speeds are everything, you now are dealing with flaps, slats, speed brakes and spoilers and TR's. It is not just fly it in and land it. You get below the ref speeds and if you don't have the thing configured right it will fall out of the sky. I doubt very seriously that anyone would make it through that landing. Not only would the plane be unusable, everyone would probably be dead. It is just not the same in Transport size aircraft.
Well flying paying Paxs you better care what they think, cause without them you don't have a job. Remember TWA? Once people lose faith and trust, it is over.
Sure you can get your private in a 737 if you have enough money. Do you think that is a logical thing to do though? As long as I can remember in aviation, people have started out in trainers to learn the fundementals of flight, and to learn how to use those skills to fly an airplane. Starting in a King Air would be a foolish thing for someone to do, they would be making things so hard on themselves and setting themselves up for failure. Even though I have seen guys who got their PPL in a Navajo. Smart, no. DO you think they could go fly a 172 after that? Not really.
You have to learn to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. It is just how things are done. There are exceptions, but there are exceptions to every rule, that is not to say it is the safest nor the smartest thing.
You brought up some good questions. Thanks for engaging in the conversation, it is a learning expereince for us all.
Sd
Well lets see..
As far as the person not caring no matter what, well I can ASURE you that will catch up to him and kick him in the ass in full force sooner or later. You just can't go through life not giving a damm about anything, and you sure can't work in an industry this small and it not catch up with you.
She would be competent yes, safe maybe, but experienced not really. I will say this though, 1500hrs and she would be a lot safer than a 300hr pilot. Remember we are talking about guys with 300 to 400hrs here, not people with 1500hrs. She has probably seen a lot in her 1500hrs especially if she has been instucting that whole time. I would trust her a lot more than a 300hr guy that you trained in that King Air.
Exactly, I know at 300hrs I didn't really respect aircraft. Hence the phrase "the cocky 100hr pilot." If you only have 300hrs you haven't yet got to the point where you really respect aircraft.
That is my point exactly, those experiences would help you to be ready for the next airplane you fly. Without those experiences you would have nothing to fall back on. It is those expereinces, without a Co-Pilot or Captain that hep you when you get to the complex aircraft.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I use to think when I was a private pilot and even after I became a commercial pilot and had my multi, that I could land a jet if something happened to the pilot, having never flown one before. Well when you ever fly a jet you tell me if you feel the same way. Just cause it has wings and a motor they don't act like planes at that point. Most don't fly without motors, they are just not built like a 172. When you get to a transport aircraft things get different, speeds are everything, you now are dealing with flaps, slats, speed brakes and spoilers and TR's. It is not just fly it in and land it. You get below the ref speeds and if you don't have the thing configured right it will fall out of the sky. I doubt very seriously that anyone would make it through that landing. Not only would the plane be unusable, everyone would probably be dead. It is just not the same in Transport size aircraft.
Well flying paying Paxs you better care what they think, cause without them you don't have a job. Remember TWA? Once people lose faith and trust, it is over.
Sure you can get your private in a 737 if you have enough money. Do you think that is a logical thing to do though? As long as I can remember in aviation, people have started out in trainers to learn the fundementals of flight, and to learn how to use those skills to fly an airplane. Starting in a King Air would be a foolish thing for someone to do, they would be making things so hard on themselves and setting themselves up for failure. Even though I have seen guys who got their PPL in a Navajo. Smart, no. DO you think they could go fly a 172 after that? Not really.
You have to learn to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. It is just how things are done. There are exceptions, but there are exceptions to every rule, that is not to say it is the safest nor the smartest thing.
You brought up some good questions. Thanks for engaging in the conversation, it is a learning expereince for us all.
Sd
Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2002
- Posts
- 356
SDdriver said:Ok,
Well lets see..
As far as the person not caring no matter what, well I can ASURE you that will catch up to him and kick him in the ass in full force sooner or later. You just can't go through life not giving a damm about anything, and you sure can't work in an industry this small and it not catch up with you.
Of course it will, but he'll get pretty far before that happens.
I've flown with him in his 172SP and I've taken him flying in my helicopter. My personal opinion is that he's a young kid who doesn't think far enough ahead, and doesn't give radio procedures enough attention.
At no time did I think he was going to crash, but he's still wet behind the ears.
I suppose you could say the same about me too, but I have a lot more respect for the aircraft than most low time pilots seem to.
Oh, I wouldn't for one second think she would be experienced. I'm just saying she would be competent and my personal feeling is that she'd be safe. But then I've flown 100 hours with her in the past year, largely because I consider her to be very focused on safety.
I've flown with some 1,000 hour CFIs who I won't fly with because I don't think they are safe enough.
True enough...
Yep, about 1,200 of that is dual given... I already know I'd trust her in a King Air. I wouldn't have spent the past year flying with her working on my fixed-wing add-on ratings if I didn't totally and completely trust her.
Totally shooting from the hip here, but if able, I'd get on the radio and ask a few questions to fellow CRJ pilots in the area.
I'd want to know what clean stalling speed is, what max flap/gear extention speed is, and what normal landing speed is.
The idea is to keep it in the air, above all else. As for landing, I'd make a few pratice landing approaches while still at altitude, to get an idea of how it handled at slower speeds. If it started to fall, I could apply full power to recover.
I'd need to know where the arming switch/lever for the spoilers is, where the flaps switch/lever is, and where the gear handle is.
I'd probably be well behind the airplane quite a bit of the time, but assuming the plane itself wasn't coming apart and there was fuel onboard, I'd make a low approach to the runway to get a sight picture while adding to the overall experience, then climb back up and fly another pattern or two, to get more feel for it.
The idea is to put it down on the longest runway in the area (DFW's 13,800ft runway would be nice) and survive.
Would it work? I have no idea, but I'd get a kick out of trying. Then again, if somehow I was called upon to do it, something really horrible has gone wrong, so maybe I don't want to try it.
I suppose landing the 737 in MSFS doesn't count, eh?
You might be right... but hey, I saw Airplane! so how hard can it be?!?!
Oh, you misunderstood me. I meant in an emergency situation like I described above, where somehow it was poor ol me trying to land that CRJ.
Eh, that might well be legal, but it sounds kinda stupid to me.
How about learning to fly in a Cessna Caravan?
Doesn't the military start people off in T-34 trainers? Aren't those turbine powered airplanes?
Yep, and I've learned a lot from the people on this forum. I don't have any jet experience, and my turbine helicopter experience probably doesn't carry over very well.
Fly safe!
Jason
Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
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- Nov 21, 2002
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46Driver said:
Are you saying all that to me?
I do know actually, I recently added my fixed-wing rating to my helo ticket. Honestly, the airplane was absurdly easy to fly after having spent several hundred hours in a helicopter. One thing that I found interesting was engine out work in the airplane. She pulls the power back to idle and says, "ok, you just lost your engine". I'm reacting, picking a spot on the ground, turning and diving for it. She's just looking at me like I'm from Mars...
Her: "what the hell are you doing?"
Me: "getting it on the ground, before we crash"
Her: "we're not going to fall out of the sky, just relax and let go of the controls"
Me: "what? I can't do that!!!"
Her: "this isn't a helicopter, an airplane wants to fly!"
It actually took some work for her to convince me to let go of the controls, I really, really didn't want to.
Jason
Yeah, the transition can be interesting - I fly the jet about 12 days a month and the helo about 15 a month so I am constantly jumping back and forth. My landing are a might, uhhh, firm the first day back in the jet..... I do feel your pain - in training, my instructor told me to flare on landing - definitely the wrong term to tell a helo driver!
Whirlwind
Fling-wing pilot
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46Driver said:Yeah, the transition can be interesting - I fly the jet about 12 days a month and the helo about 15 a month so I am constantly jumping back and forth. My landing are a might, uhhh, firm the first day back in the jet..... I do feel your pain - in training, my instructor told me to flare on landing - definitely the wrong term to tell a helo driver!
LOL!
Ahh, I remember that too... the weird part was landing with 60kt of forward speed, I keep feeling like we were going to crash. I kept trying to slow down to zero as I reached the runway, she kept having to add power.
I took a month off from helos to learn the basics of flying planes. When I went back to helos, it was weird and it took a lot of effort to remind myself to not hit the ground at 60kt.
Jason
bobbysamd
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FoxHunter
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The first PFT airline that I know of was Federal Express. In the early days you had to buy your Falcon type from them.
The second that I know of was Braniff. If you wanted to be considered you had to go to Braniff's F/E school. The Braniff program ran from the early 70s probably until they did their massive hiring in 1978 with the deregulation of the airline industry. Since they were the first airline to cease operating that was probably not a good investment.
I enjoy reading the discussion on the issue, but the fact is that one could argue that the aviation industry has been ruined by all these young guys/gals willing to fly RJs for substandard wages/conditions. Then who really knows what is standard
?
The second that I know of was Braniff. If you wanted to be considered you had to go to Braniff's F/E school. The Braniff program ran from the early 70s probably until they did their massive hiring in 1978 with the deregulation of the airline industry. Since they were the first airline to cease operating that was probably not a good investment.
I enjoy reading the discussion on the issue, but the fact is that one could argue that the aviation industry has been ruined by all these young guys/gals willing to fly RJs for substandard wages/conditions. Then who really knows what is standard
?
Chicken Little
Sounds like the sky is falling for a few on this board.
I am not the Patron-Saint of PFT, however, I must speak to reason when I hear others say PFT is the reason the industry is in the can. It is not.
Also, a little bit of ink (FAR) makes the right seat of a king air need a 'qualified' pilot. When magically, for another operation, it is a single-pilot op. Sounds like the operator is an entrepreneur to me. (oh the flames!)
There are few certainties in this world, however, there will always be those who look to others for the cause of their own problems and many pilots will always view opinions opposite theirs as flawed.
Sounds like the sky is falling for a few on this board.
I am not the Patron-Saint of PFT, however, I must speak to reason when I hear others say PFT is the reason the industry is in the can. It is not.
Also, a little bit of ink (FAR) makes the right seat of a king air need a 'qualified' pilot. When magically, for another operation, it is a single-pilot op. Sounds like the operator is an entrepreneur to me. (oh the flames!)
There are few certainties in this world, however, there will always be those who look to others for the cause of their own problems and many pilots will always view opinions opposite theirs as flawed.
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
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- 4,625
Au, contraire. PFT isn't the reason that the industry is in that can. It IS one small part that can be reduced as we exert or own "force" in the market. In other words, we can increase the amount of drag that is produced by PFT. In so doing, we can increase the amount of professionalism that can be generated when PFT is reduced.
One small step for a man...
SDdriver
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Just to clarify, I never said PFT was the sole industry problem. But I think it is a MAJOR problem in MANY ways. If just doesn't affect one person, it has a domino effect. Just thought I would get a good explaination of this from someone who explained it very well.
Cornbread,
No it isn't the only problem, the economy is a problem also, but you don't see PFT as a major CANCER in this industry? If you don't I feel sorry for you and the rest that are in this industry that may not advocate PFT, but don't really think it is a problem, read below and understand why it is!
Does this help clarify? You talked about pay, why should a company ever pay a decent wage when they can be paid by people that PFT? Hell, you could probably even PFT the Captains positions also. WHat happens when all pilot jobs are PFT, so you fly for 1 or 2 years as an FO and then they say, ok we want to upgrade you, but it is going to cost 10,000 dollars for the upgrade and we are reducing our yearly salary also, because we know there are spineless wonders out there that will work for almost nothing for the PIC turbine, oh and they will pay for the type. Where do you think this is heading? When that happenes, what are you going to think the major reason is that the industry is in the toilet? You were very quick to say PFT was not the main cause, and everyone else is blaming their problems on PFT, but you didn't offer up any ideas as to why the industry is bad. And also just another clarification, I DON"T BLAME ANY OF MY PROBLEMS on anything. I choose to be in this industry, but I also CHOOSE NEVER TO PFT, I will walk away before I stoop that low.
See ya.
SD
Cornbread,
No it isn't the only problem, the economy is a problem also, but you don't see PFT as a major CANCER in this industry? If you don't I feel sorry for you and the rest that are in this industry that may not advocate PFT, but don't really think it is a problem, read below and understand why it is!
Does this help clarify? You talked about pay, why should a company ever pay a decent wage when they can be paid by people that PFT? Hell, you could probably even PFT the Captains positions also. WHat happens when all pilot jobs are PFT, so you fly for 1 or 2 years as an FO and then they say, ok we want to upgrade you, but it is going to cost 10,000 dollars for the upgrade and we are reducing our yearly salary also, because we know there are spineless wonders out there that will work for almost nothing for the PIC turbine, oh and they will pay for the type. Where do you think this is heading? When that happenes, what are you going to think the major reason is that the industry is in the toilet? You were very quick to say PFT was not the main cause, and everyone else is blaming their problems on PFT, but you didn't offer up any ideas as to why the industry is bad. And also just another clarification, I DON"T BLAME ANY OF MY PROBLEMS on anything. I choose to be in this industry, but I also CHOOSE NEVER TO PFT, I will walk away before I stoop that low.
See ya.
SD
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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P-F-T as BOHICA
Excellent point. P-F-T very much turns on the issue of respect. You cannot expect an employer treat you with respect when it sees that you will stoop to buying a job.
That connects to the pay issue. It doesn't matter what you do for work. I've worked in three different businesses. In each the people who were paid the least were shown the least respect by the employer. Those who either refused to work for low wages or left for better wages were accorded greater respect.
Remember this thread from about ten days ago that was started by a wife of a furloughed pilot? She did not understand why pilots are oftentimes not paid well and also why pilots are willing to accept low pay. I realize that it's a Catch-22 - you need the job and/or the opportunity. The commuters know that - that's how they get away with $14K annual pay for new FOs. Just the same, there are situations where the majority is undercut by a minority who will accept or condone various forms of BOHICA. P-F-T, in my $0.02 opinion is one highly noxious form of BOHICA.
Once more, all we can do is try to educate. Sadly, there are those who have P-F-T and those who will.
(emphasis added)SDdriver said:
Excellent point. P-F-T very much turns on the issue of respect. You cannot expect an employer treat you with respect when it sees that you will stoop to buying a job.
That connects to the pay issue. It doesn't matter what you do for work. I've worked in three different businesses. In each the people who were paid the least were shown the least respect by the employer. Those who either refused to work for low wages or left for better wages were accorded greater respect.
Remember this thread from about ten days ago that was started by a wife of a furloughed pilot? She did not understand why pilots are oftentimes not paid well and also why pilots are willing to accept low pay. I realize that it's a Catch-22 - you need the job and/or the opportunity. The commuters know that - that's how they get away with $14K annual pay for new FOs. Just the same, there are situations where the majority is undercut by a minority who will accept or condone various forms of BOHICA. P-F-T, in my $0.02 opinion is one highly noxious form of BOHICA.
Once more, all we can do is try to educate. Sadly, there are those who have P-F-T and those who will.
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Couple of quick points: I don't think the guys at SouthWest are "spineless wonders" because they paid for their type. Second, "Respect" in this setting is irrelevant. This is simply a logical, efficient, mathematical business decision based upon capitalistic supply and demand.
Maybe the difference in perspective is that being a pilot is a dream, and end unto itself, for some - while for others it is simply a job, and a means to an end.
Maybe the difference in perspective is that being a pilot is a dream, and end unto itself, for some - while for others it is simply a job, and a means to an end.
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SDdriver
Well-known member
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- 238
46,
Didn't we already go over this? The 73type, well that is kinda like THEIRS FOREVER, and they can go to any operator with a 737 and qualify. Not really PFT.
REspect has everything to do with it. Respect for your fellow pilot. Hey what are you going to think if your company tells you they are going to upgrade you to CAptain on the 328, but you have to pay them 15k for it, I ,mean since everyone else is doing it why not us to hu? What would you say then 46driver? All that work as an FO, just to have to pay 15k to be Captain? Oh god I have to get out of this thread or I think there is gonna be a homicide soon..
See ya guys, keep it right side up alright.
SD
P.S. It WAS my dream also, but you know some of us have a FAMILY to SUPPORT.
Didn't we already go over this? The 73type, well that is kinda like THEIRS FOREVER, and they can go to any operator with a 737 and qualify. Not really PFT.
REspect has everything to do with it. Respect for your fellow pilot. Hey what are you going to think if your company tells you they are going to upgrade you to CAptain on the 328, but you have to pay them 15k for it, I ,mean since everyone else is doing it why not us to hu? What would you say then 46driver? All that work as an FO, just to have to pay 15k to be Captain? Oh god I have to get out of this thread or I think there is gonna be a homicide soon..
See ya guys, keep it right side up alright.
SD
P.S. It WAS my dream also, but you know some of us have a FAMILY to SUPPORT.
SDdriver
Well-known member
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BTW 46driver,
DOn't take my post the wrong way, I am not trying to insult you or anything, not trying to be mean in any way either, just making the point that if things keep going like they are going then even Captains are going to have to PFT to be able to fly. One more thing, a PFT guy is not looked at as a pilot, he is looked at as a paycheck. As far as resepct and good treatment goes, do you think they are going to treat a PFT guy in a good way? Hell no, they will try to treat him as poorly as possible so he will leave and they can get another check. I am sorry, that is just plain wrong. REmember dude, it is a job, not something you just do for fun, if that is the case go rent or buy a plane and do whatever you want, but when you are hauling paying passengers or freight, it is a job. It was always my dream, but my days of paying for flying ENDED when I got my commercial ticket. Then I thought, WOW I am going to be able to live my dream and get paid also, now that is not the case. Now we are back to stareing at the hobbs meter thinking GOSH how am I going to pay for this. No thanks man..Come on 46driver, I really don't think you believe that PFT is just because we have a bad economy. If nobody PFT'd then guess what, they would HAVE TO PAY. It just doesn't get any more simple than that. Economy or not, DON"T PAY AND THEY WILL PAY.
Take care..
SD
DOn't take my post the wrong way, I am not trying to insult you or anything, not trying to be mean in any way either, just making the point that if things keep going like they are going then even Captains are going to have to PFT to be able to fly. One more thing, a PFT guy is not looked at as a pilot, he is looked at as a paycheck. As far as resepct and good treatment goes, do you think they are going to treat a PFT guy in a good way? Hell no, they will try to treat him as poorly as possible so he will leave and they can get another check. I am sorry, that is just plain wrong. REmember dude, it is a job, not something you just do for fun, if that is the case go rent or buy a plane and do whatever you want, but when you are hauling paying passengers or freight, it is a job. It was always my dream, but my days of paying for flying ENDED when I got my commercial ticket. Then I thought, WOW I am going to be able to live my dream and get paid also, now that is not the case. Now we are back to stareing at the hobbs meter thinking GOSH how am I going to pay for this. No thanks man..Come on 46driver, I really don't think you believe that PFT is just because we have a bad economy. If nobody PFT'd then guess what, they would HAVE TO PAY. It just doesn't get any more simple than that. Economy or not, DON"T PAY AND THEY WILL PAY.
Take care..
SD
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