I'm not a proponent of PFT

[46Driver]

Just to throw fuel on the fire on a boring day.... I've asked about this at several of the squadrons I've been in and all you get is a blank look. Nobody understands what is unethical about it - the general consensus is you do what you have to do and if somebody isn't willing to pay the price, that's Darwin at work. Maybe the military bubbas have a different perspective coming from a ruthlessly competitive flight school environment to the exact opposite in a seniority based system.

 

[bobbysamd]

Just to throw fuel on the fire on a boring day.... I've asked about this at several of the squadrons I've been in and all you get is a blank look. Nobody understands what is unethical about it - the general consensus is you do what you have to do and if somebody isn't willing to pay the price, that's Darwin at work.

Situational ethics. I love it!!!!

 

[SDdriver]

Just out of curiosity did you read any of the above post? When someone PFT's they take the job away from many who are qualified. The company is now not only making money from flying people or frieght, they are now making money off of their pilots.

Did you pay the military to give you a job flying helos? NO you didn't. You signed up for a JOB JOB JOB..they PAY YOU..get it?

My god I can't believe why people can't understand this. When you pay a comany for training then they figure out that they don't have to pay you hardley anything to fly for them. Why do you think the pay sucks so bad in this industry, because companies don't have to pay pilots, they have gutless wonders paying them.

PLEASE read the post by jergar999 above. It explains it perfectly. Now after reading that, do you really think it is an ethical buisness practice and something that is productive for the industry.

I can just picture it, Daddy Daddy, there is a company that wants to hire me to fly a jet, can you believe it, I will get to wear a uniform and a hat and be a real pilot, can I just get a check for 15,000 dollars so they will hire me to make 18,000 my first year? Gosh I will only be making 3000 dollars my first year, but hey I will be flying right. GIVE ME A F**KING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!

SD

 

[46Driver]

Don't shoot the messenger - I'm just relaying an observation from a few different squadrons....

 

[SDdriver]

46Driver,

I wasn't ragging on you, just do me a favor, go tell your buddies to go and look in the dictionary at the definition of a job, it doesn't say anywhere in there anything about paying the employer.

Or better yet, copy jergar999 post word for word and take it to them and have them read it. Tell them to imagine getting out of the military and having 3 or 4 or 5 thousand hours in jets or turboprops, and going to apply for a job flying a corp jet or a freight jet, and having the chief pilot tell you sorry we are going to hire this 19yr old kid with 300 hours cause he is going to pay us 15k, think you would be pissed? All the hard work you have put in over your career to get to the point where you are at, earning it every step of the way, just to have some little punk with a fat check book take the job from you? Think you would be pissed? He hasn't earned one hour in his whole life, he has just cut a check for everything, and he gets it over you? YEAH PISSES ME OFF!! BIG TIME! I have never had that happen to me, but I have to friends of mine that are GREAT pilots and have really busted their ass hauling freight, towing banners, flying traffic, and living in their car or a closet the whole time, and who gets the jobs? Kids who's daddy's write a check for everything they ever do so they can have what they want when they want it. Look, my family was able to pay my way, but I never asked them to do it, I WORKED for what I have, and I was paid for my time in planes. Sorry if I am seeming pissed, but I am, This subject just really gets my blood boiling.

Well I have to go, time to go clock in at McDonalds.

Sd

 

[Coffee]

Thank you

To answer a question asked earlier, I do not typically drop a bomb in a room and run out. I am working two non-aviation related job and flying for an air ambulance when they call. I am burning my candle at both ends and occasionally in the middle. My hands are not lacking when it comes to work, I just wish I could work one job, maybe engage my girl and fly for a living. I was able to read the thread tonight prior to hitting the sack and appreciate the responses. I am like most of you trying to make the best out of a bad economy without becoming depressed or emotional overwhelmed.

 

[Whirlwind]

Tell them to imagine getting out of the military and having 3 or 4 or 5 thousand hours in jets or turboprops, and going to apply for a job flying a corp jet or a freight jet, and having the chief pilot tell you sorry we are going to hire this 19yr old kid with 300 hours cause he is going to pay us 15k, think you would be pissed? All the hard work you have put in over your career to get to the point where you are at, earning it every step of the way, just to have some little punk with a fat check book take the job from you? Think you would be pissed? He hasn't earned one hour in his whole life, he has just cut a check for everything, and he gets it over you?

I'm not defending PFT here, but I would like to point out one thing.

This is Capitalism at work here. Someone with means can acheve something you cannot, that is how the system works.

YEAH PISSES ME OFF!! BIG TIME! I have never had that happen to me, but I have to friends of mine that are GREAT pilots and have really busted their ass hauling freight, towing banners, flying traffic, and living in their car or a closet the whole time, and who gets the jobs? Kids who's daddy's write a check for everything they ever do so they can have what they want when they want it.

Again, that is the free market system at work. You busted your butt for everything you've got, you worked very hard to build up the time, and this kid just jumps in front of you because his parents have means and can afford it.

One of the students at our flight school just got his private helicopter ticket a month ago. This is six months after he got his fixed-wing ticket. The kid is 17 years old, his father bought him a brand new 172SP to get his fixed-wing ticket in and paid for both ratings. His dad (who is also helo rated) is now buying an almost new Bell Jetranger and paying to have his kid learn to fly it as well.

I worked at Blockbuster Video when I was 17 years old earning $6/hr.

Sucks, eh?

Then again, his father has tons of money, he owns his own personal Citation II/SP, so I guess the 172SP is just a drop in the bucket for him. That kid will never have to be a CFI if he doesn't want to be. When he gets a few years older and insurance will cover him, his dad will just pay to get him typed in the Citation, he can then fly it around logging turbine time without having to bust his butt for it.

Must be nice...

I WORKED for what I have, and I was paid for my time in planes.

The people who can write a check either worked for it somewhere else, or their parents worked for it. In either case, they don't much care that you did it the hard way, they don't see it as their problem.

Again, not defending it or promoting it, just calling it as I see it.

My 2 cents from the cheap seats.

Jason

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Someone with means can acheve something you cannot . . . . You busted your butt for everything you've got, you worked very hard to build up the time, and this kid just jumps in front of you because his parents have means and can afford it . . . . When [this kid] gets a few years older and insurance will cover him, his dad will just pay to get him typed in the Citation, he can then fly it around logging turbine time without having to bust his butt for it.

Must be nice...

Must be. I recall that I first read about P-F-T eleven or twelve years ago in Kit's old rag, Career Pilot magazine. Before I read on my reaction was that aviation was still a rich man's game. And that you can solve most problems just by throwing money at them.

Just in case anyone's asking, I could have put my hands on enough money back then to P-F-T.

The kid may build up his hours in the Citation so he will not have to P-F-T in the strict sense, but it still will be like P-F-Ting. Hopefully, an interview board could determine from the kid's logbook that the Citation hours were paid-for and act appropriately. If the kid sat next to me, which, obviously, he never will, rest assured he would not get any respect from me beyond the requirements of the flight.

 

[46Driver]

"The kid may build up his hours in the Citation so he will not have to P-F-T in the strict sense, but it will still be like PFT'ing."

Situational Ethics, I love it!!!!

 

[SDdriver]

Whirlwind,

I do see our point, and you are right in many ways, we do as you say live in a capitalist sociaty.
That does not change the fact that PFT is a bad thing. My parents had the means to pay my way, also to pay for a job if I wanted it, but I had more respect for myself and the industry as a whole to not do it that way, because I recognized that by doing that, I would not only lose the respect of others, but I would be damaging the very industry that I love and am a part of. Just because you or your parents have the means, doesn't mean that you have to take advantage of it. I remember not to long ago, Avbug making a very good point. The point was the new generation of kids that are entering the industry. THis generation is a generation of people that are use to haveing what they want RIGHT NOW. Look at the interent, fast as possible, I remember when there were only 1200 baud modems and it took days sometimes to d/l files from a BBS. Now that is totaly unacceptable for people, kids today are use to having everything as fast as technology can make it. While that is nice, it violates a very important lesson in life, and that is following a set path to success. When I started flying in 1988 the only way you could make it in this industry was to work through the different steps and jobs, build your time, and then achieve your ultimate goal, which was airlines or flying heavy iron. There were no shortcuts, and because of that, when you had someone that was flying a jet or a large complex aircraft, they REALLY had a lot of good expereince to get to that point and to fall back on when things went in the sh1tter. Now days if you have the means you can skip all of the things in between and go straight to the jets. Sure that is even appealing to me, but I don't do it because I know that I am only depriving myself of some really good experience and selling myself short. I would also be contributing to something that is causing the downfall of this industry, so I chose not to do it.
I will never forget not to long ago, one of my friends, a uncomming pilot that had just finsihed their CFI, was telling me, Yeah, I think I am going to probably go ahead and pay the 15k to go get that job..(there was a specific job we were talking about). I remember me saying, Why in the world are you going to do that, this persons response was (and keep in mind they only had 280hrs) "Well how else am I going to get any turbine time". I was almost sick at t he response I got. THinking to myself, you have no place in a turbine aircraft at 280hrs. You haven't ever had any form of real life flying and you want to go jump into a turbine transport aircraft. I mean they had 8hrs of multi time and they were already thinking TURBINE.
I told this person, you need to instruct for awhile and then get a job flying a light twin, get use to that, and then move up, get some expereince first and then think about turbines when you have a background that you can build on. I remember when I got my multi I wasn't even thinking of turbines, I was thinking, gosh I can't wait to fly that Baron, and then after flying one for awhile, I was thinking gosh I can't wait to fly that King Air, then after that I was looking at jets. But all before that, I was flying pipeline and traffic in singles, getting real world expereince. I guess my point is that nobody these days cares about taking a logical road to jets. It is just, get my basic ratings and I am READY to fly a jet. Well in my book that is not the way it should be done. Guess I am just old school.
BY the way, I am sure you have had this happen and many others, and that is, sitting in the cockpit with a Captain that is a lot more expereinced than you and telling stories about the time you were hauling checks in a beat up old Bonanza, or about how that student almost killed you that time, and things of that nature. What is a 300hr pilot sitting next to a Rj captain going to have to offer up in that conversation. Maybe, yeah hey you won't believe what happend about 3 weeks ago when I was getting my multi...come on, does that instill confidence in you to have someone sitting next to you that doesn't have anything in their background that they are proud of or achieved as a result of hard work? Besides their ratings? Well it doesn't do much for me. I like being able to know that the FO sitting next to me has done some difficult things and had a variaty of aircraft and flying expereinces to get them to that seat.
I have had both of those types in the right seat of my airplane, and I will tell you, the 300hr guys I have had, I was always having to watch them so close and be so alert to the things they were doing, because they were almost always flying blind in a way. They didn't have a clue as to their personal limits and didn't have a clue as to when they were exceeding them. It was so nice to have a guy sitting next to me that had flown freight or hauled checks, or even instructed for awhile, at least then I know that this guy has a good idea of where his limitations are and knows when to say, hey I need help, other than that I didn't have to stress myself out constantly by having to have eagle eyes when this guy was flying. Well I guess I got way to long winded here, sorry for that, and I do see your point and respect your opinion, I just wish these new kids comming up would learn that the road to success is not one that can be bought, it has to be learned and achieved, that is the only way that things are then truley safe, or as safe as they can be.
I just wonder what the general public would think it they knew that the 20yr old kid sitting in the right seat of the jet they are flying on, just got his license a month ago and this was his first job? Do you think they would feel safe? Do you think they would feel as though he had enough experience to handle something if it went wrong, without the help of the Captain? Keep in mind, you can teach a monkey to pass a checkride if you teach him long enough. Only expereince can teach you to be calm and handle huge stress loads and multiple failures under real life conditions.

SD

 

[46Driver]

SDdriver,
What is your perspective on military pilots then? We go from 0 time and start out in turbines - at 300 hours some are flying single seat supersonic fighters.

 

[Whirlwind]

That does not change the fact that PFT is a bad thing.

SDdriver, it is worth pointing out that calling it good or bad depends largely on your own point of view.

To quote Obi Won Kenobi, "you'll find that many of the truths that we cling to in life depend greatly on your own point of view"

To you, me, and lots of other people, PFT is a bad thing. To the kid who can afford to buy his way past you, it is a good thing. He gets to avoid taking the hard path, and instead takes the easy path.

My parents had the means to pay my way, also to pay for a job if I wanted it, but I had more respect for myself and the industry as a whole to not do it that way.

Fair enough...

Just so long as you understand that the kid who can buy his way past you, could care less what you and I think.

Just because you or your parents have the means, doesn't mean that you have to take advantage of it.

If you said that to these kids, you'd get a blank thousand-yard stare back in return.

I remember when there were only 1200 baud modems and it took days sometimes to d/l files from a BBS. Now that is totaly unacceptable for people, kids today are use to having everything as fast as technology can make it.

Hey, my first modem was a 1200 baud Hayes!!!

That being said, you can have my DSL when you take it from my cold, dead hands.

Your point however, is well taken...

Now days if you have the means you can skip all of the things in between and go straight to the jets.

If you have the means, you can just buy the jet.

There does come a point where the person is just looking for something to do, as compared to looking to support a family.

I will never forget not to long ago, one of my friends, a uncomming pilot that had just finsihed their CFI, was telling me, Yeah, I think I am going to probably go ahead and pay the 15k to go get that job..(there was a specific job we were talking about). I remember me saying, Why in the world are you going to do that, this persons response was (and keep in mind they only had 280hrs) "Well how else am I going to get any turbine time". I was almost sick at t he response I got. THinking to myself, you have no place in a turbine aircraft at 280hrs. You haven't ever had any form of real life flying and you want to go jump into a turbine transport aircraft. I mean they had 8hrs of multi time and they were already thinking TURBINE.

I've never flown anything bigger (fixed-wing) than a Cessna 340, and even that was always with a qualified pilot with me.

That being said, for $15,000, I'm sure I could learn the basics for flying a King Air or Citation.

Doesn't mean I'd be ready to go Captain it across the country, but I would be ready to fly right seat with a qualified and experienced Captain for a few years to build up experience.

I did get to fly a twin-turbine helicopter last year, which was a total blast, but that was only for 2 hours, and I would never kid myself into thinking I could go do it again without more training.

I told this person, you need to instruct for awhile and then get a job flying a light twin, get use to that, and then move up, get some expereince first and then think about turbines when you have a background that you can build on.

The military puts 300 hour pilots into large turbine airplanes. Then again they are trained from day one to fly such planes.

A King Air is just a big Baron, more power and more systems, but otherwise it is just an oversized Baron. Any 300 hour pilot can be taught to fly it. I don't think a 300 hour pilot is any safer in a Baron than they would be in a King Air, so long as the training in that aircraft's systems was done properly.

But all before that, I was flying pipeline and traffic in singles, getting real world expereince. I guess my point is that nobody these days cares about taking a logical road to jets. It is just, get my basic ratings and I am READY to fly a jet. Well in my book that is not the way it should be done. Guess I am just old school.

I'd have to refer you back to the start of this post here. You use the term, "logical road to jets". Keep in mind that what is logical to you is absurd to someone else. I have no doubt that many kids these days consider such a path to be "old school", as you put it.

Which is better? They both have their pluses and minues. Personally I'd be just as happy flying traffic watch and jump planes, but then flying jets doesn't interest me anyway.

BY the way, I am sure you have had this happen and many others, and that is, sitting in the cockpit with a Captain that is a lot more expereinced than you and telling stories about the time you were hauling checks in a beat up old Bonanza, or about how that student almost killed you that time, and things of that nature.

I picked experienced CFIs for that very reason, I want more than to learn to fly to standards, I want those personal insights that can only be provided by experience.

They didn't have a clue as to their personal limits and didn't have a clue as to when they were exceeding them. It was so nice to have a guy sitting next to me that had flown freight or hauled checks, or even instructed for awhile, at least then I know that this guy has a good idea of where his limitations are and knows when to say, hey I need help, other than that I didn't have to stress myself out constantly by having to have eagle eyes when this guy was flying.

Believe it or not, I understand...

Having started to fly with students myself, I've just been floored at how blindly they will proceed without thinking.

I have to watch them like a hawk, lest they hurt themselves (and me with them)

Well I guess I got way to long winded here, sorry for that, and I do see your point and respect your opinion, I just wish these new kids comming up would learn that the road to success is not one that can be bought, it has to be learned and achieved, that is the only way that things are then truley safe, or as safe as they can be.

No worries about being long winded, you have strong feelings on the subject.

As for the road to success being bought, that would again depend on your point of view. What is "success"?

That's the ten thousand dollar question...

I just wonder what the general public would think it they knew that the 20yr old kid sitting in the right seat of the jet they are flying on, just got his license a month ago and this was his first job?

I don't think most would even give it a second thought. Airliners just don't crash that often. If this changes, then they will start to care.

Jason

 

[Whirlwind]

SDdriver,
What is your perspective on military pilots then? We go from 0 time and start out in turbines - at 300 hours some are flying single seat supersonic fighters.

I think the difference in training is perhaps the point here...

The average pilot going through your local FBO's Part 61 flight school is not the same product at 300 hours as what the military turns out at 300 hours.

Jason

 

[p.b.]

46Driver- if something goes REALLY wrong mechanically you can eject and save yourself, the 300 hour wonder flying part 121 has at least 30 other people to think of.

SDdriver- I agree with you wholeheartedly, well said.


46, Please don't think I'm saying your job is somehow easy. First, I don't know much about military aviation, and second that isn't the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Timebuilder]

How can I resist?

I had the money for PFT in spades, and due to the wisdom of some experienced pilots, I decided against it.

That's the gist of these PFT threads: education. While some young people (to me that's under 40!!!) may not care a whit what I or anyone else thinks, there are some who will listen to reason, and still turn away from PFT.

Further, we have a mention of the capitalist market in this thread. That's good, but remember that WE are a PART of the market. As mentors and instructors, we can council against PFT. As hiring captains, we can pass over PFT applicants for jobs. As passengers, we can refuse to fly on PFT carriers. As owners, we can step up to the plate and hire qualified people for our airplanes.

Personally, I think that military aviators should only be required to have an MEL certificate, not hundreds of hours in a piston twin or a turboprop to qualify for a 121 job. These guys have already proved their fixed wing abilities. The helo guys should be given the opportunity for fixed wing transition training before they leave the service.

Another 2 cents.