I'm not a proponent of PFT

[46Driver]

You would be surprised how much carries over - instruments are instruments, air sense is air sense, and engine out in a twin is tricky but not as - ahhh - interesting as a tail rotor malfunction....
Flyin's flyin'....

 

[Whirlwind]

You would be surprised how much carries over - instruments are instruments, air sense is air sense, and engine out in a twin is tricky but not as - ahhh - interesting as a tail rotor malfunction....
Flyin's flyin'....

Are you saying all that to me?

I do know actually, I recently added my fixed-wing rating to my helo ticket. Honestly, the airplane was absurdly easy to fly after having spent several hundred hours in a helicopter. One thing that I found interesting was engine out work in the airplane. She pulls the power back to idle and says, "ok, you just lost your engine". I'm reacting, picking a spot on the ground, turning and diving for it. She's just looking at me like I'm from Mars...

Her: "what the hell are you doing?"

Me: "getting it on the ground, before we crash"

Her: "we're not going to fall out of the sky, just relax and let go of the controls"

Me: "what? I can't do that!!!"

Her: "this isn't a helicopter, an airplane wants to fly!"

It actually took some work for her to convince me to let go of the controls, I really, really didn't want to.

Jason

 

[46Driver]

Yeah, the transition can be interesting - I fly the jet about 12 days a month and the helo about 15 a month so I am constantly jumping back and forth. My landing are a might, uhhh, firm the first day back in the jet..... I do feel your pain - in training, my instructor told me to flare on landing - definitely the wrong term to tell a helo driver!

 

[Whirlwind]

Yeah, the transition can be interesting - I fly the jet about 12 days a month and the helo about 15 a month so I am constantly jumping back and forth. My landing are a might, uhhh, firm the first day back in the jet..... I do feel your pain - in training, my instructor told me to flare on landing - definitely the wrong term to tell a helo driver!

LOL!

Ahh, I remember that too... the weird part was landing with 60kt of forward speed, I keep feeling like we were going to crash. I kept trying to slow down to zero as I reached the runway, she kept having to add power.

I took a month off from helos to learn the basics of flying planes. When I went back to helos, it was weird and it took a lot of effort to remind myself to not hit the ground at 60kt.

Jason

 

[FoxHunter]

What is the name of the first airline with a PFT program? What is the name of the second?

 

[bobbysamd]

Early P-F-T airlines

What is the name of the first airline with a PFT program? What is the name of the second?

Air Midwest had a P-F-T program going in the mid to late '80s, before Mesa bought it. There were non-airlines, such as freight and 135 operators, who sold P-F-T seats during the late '80s-early '90s.

 

[FoxHunter]

The first PFT airline that I know of was Federal Express. In the early days you had to buy your Falcon type from them.

The second that I know of was Braniff. If you wanted to be considered you had to go to Braniff's F/E school. The Braniff program ran from the early 70s probably until they did their massive hiring in 1978 with the deregulation of the airline industry. Since they were the first airline to cease operating that was probably not a good investment.

I enjoy reading the discussion on the issue, but the fact is that one could argue that the aviation industry has been ruined by all these young guys/gals willing to fly RJs for substandard wages/conditions. Then who really knows what is standard
?

 

[cornbread]

Chicken Little

Sounds like the sky is falling for a few on this board.

I am not the Patron-Saint of PFT, however, I must speak to reason when I hear others say PFT is the reason the industry is in the can. It is not.

Also, a little bit of ink (FAR) makes the right seat of a king air need a 'qualified' pilot. When magically, for another operation, it is a single-pilot op. Sounds like the operator is an entrepreneur to me. (oh the flames!)

There are few certainties in this world, however, there will always be those who look to others for the cause of their own problems and many pilots will always view opinions opposite theirs as flawed.

 

[Timebuilder]

I am not the Patron-Saint of PFT, however, I must speak to reason when I hear others say PFT is the reason the industry is in the can. It is not.

Au, contraire. PFT isn't the reason that the industry is in that can. It IS one small part that can be reduced as we exert or own "force" in the market. In other words, we can increase the amount of drag that is produced by PFT. In so doing, we can increase the amount of professionalism that can be generated when PFT is reduced.

One small step for a man...

 

[SDdriver]

Just to clarify, I never said PFT was the sole industry problem. But I think it is a MAJOR problem in MANY ways. If just doesn't affect one person, it has a domino effect. Just thought I would get a good explaination of this from someone who explained it very well.

Cornbread,

No it isn't the only problem, the economy is a problem also, but you don't see PFT as a major CANCER in this industry? If you don't I feel sorry for you and the rest that are in this industry that may not advocate PFT, but don't really think it is a problem, read below and understand why it is!

Bob just graduated from college, with a degree in aeronautical science. He goes back to his hometown, to XYZ airport and starts instructing. There are three main operators based at XYZ airport. One is a huge freight company that operates large aircraft, and pays appropriately. They usually hire pilots from one of the two other smaller freight companies on the field. Those companies operate small jets and turboprops, and require 2 pilots. Both companies operate on demand and bid on scheduled freight runs. We'll call them company A and B to keep it simple. Bob is tired of instructing, and like so many instructors yearns for the big iron days and the pay. Company A decides that if Bob pays them a certain amount, they will check him out in the airplane and he can fly as much as duty times will allow. The company is still collecting money for the flight from the freight or passengers. Bob pays for the turbine time (1 pilot job down, why pay a first officer if they'll pay you?). Some of Bob's friends hear about his plan, and decide to do the same, as they want a shot at the big time too. (several more pilot jobs down) Once the paid pilots are gone and everyone at company A is either a captain or paying, company A can underbid company B. Company B has two options now. They can shut the doors (more jobs gone) or charge pilots to fly right seat to remain competitive (more jobs gone). They go with the latter. Slowly over a period of years some retirements happen at the huge freight operator, and some promotions happen. This leaves several openings. All the local PFT folks have been salivating over this job, the company knows it, and will pay as low as the cheapest guy will work for. (1 job, not as good as it used to be) If companies A and B both had 3 aircraft each staffed with 3 crews to provide uninterrupted service, we started out with 36 paid pilot positions, and possibly after a few years a great job with the larger company. In this scenario, we end up with 18 paid positions at the 2 smaller companies, and a lesser job on the top end. This is certainly an oversimplified example, all taking place within a small and sealed environment, but its not unlike the real aviation world, which is smaller than a lot of people think. If a company needs two pilots for an aircraft, they should pay two. Once someone has paid for that job the company will probably never pay someone to take the seat, and a job is lost. One person might get ahead in his/her career, but he/she closes doors on the way up and makes things worse for everyone else.

Does this help clarify? You talked about pay, why should a company ever pay a decent wage when they can be paid by people that PFT? Hell, you could probably even PFT the Captains positions also. WHat happens when all pilot jobs are PFT, so you fly for 1 or 2 years as an FO and then they say, ok we want to upgrade you, but it is going to cost 10,000 dollars for the upgrade and we are reducing our yearly salary also, because we know there are spineless wonders out there that will work for almost nothing for the PIC turbine, oh and they will pay for the type. Where do you think this is heading? When that happenes, what are you going to think the major reason is that the industry is in the toilet? You were very quick to say PFT was not the main cause, and everyone else is blaming their problems on PFT, but you didn't offer up any ideas as to why the industry is bad. And also just another clarification, I DON"T BLAME ANY OF MY PROBLEMS on anything. I choose to be in this industry, but I also CHOOSE NEVER TO PFT, I will walk away before I stoop that low.

See ya.

SD

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T as BOHICA

ut you don't see PFT as a major CANCER in this industry . . . . [W]hy should a company ever pay a decent wage when they can be paid by people that PFT . . . .

(emphasis added)

Excellent point. P-F-T very much turns on the issue of respect. You cannot expect an employer treat you with respect when it sees that you will stoop to buying a job.

That connects to the pay issue. It doesn't matter what you do for work. I've worked in three different businesses. In each the people who were paid the least were shown the least respect by the employer. Those who either refused to work for low wages or left for better wages were accorded greater respect.

Remember this thread from about ten days ago that was started by a wife of a furloughed pilot? She did not understand why pilots are oftentimes not paid well and also why pilots are willing to accept low pay. I realize that it's a Catch-22 - you need the job and/or the opportunity. The commuters know that - that's how they get away with $14K annual pay for new FOs. Just the same, there are situations where the majority is undercut by a minority who will accept or condone various forms of BOHICA. P-F-T, in my $0.02 opinion is one highly noxious form of BOHICA.

Once more, all we can do is try to educate. Sadly, there are those who have P-F-T and those who will.

 

[46Driver]

Couple of quick points: I don't think the guys at SouthWest are "spineless wonders" because they paid for their type. Second, "Respect" in this setting is irrelevant. This is simply a logical, efficient, mathematical business decision based upon capitalistic supply and demand.

Maybe the difference in perspective is that being a pilot is a dream, and end unto itself, for some - while for others it is simply a job, and a means to an end.

 

[SDdriver]

46,

Didn't we already go over this? The 73type, well that is kinda like THEIRS FOREVER, and they can go to any operator with a 737 and qualify. Not really PFT.

REspect has everything to do with it. Respect for your fellow pilot. Hey what are you going to think if your company tells you they are going to upgrade you to CAptain on the 328, but you have to pay them 15k for it, I ,mean since everyone else is doing it why not us to hu? What would you say then 46driver? All that work as an FO, just to have to pay 15k to be Captain? Oh god I have to get out of this thread or I think there is gonna be a homicide soon..

See ya guys, keep it right side up alright.

SD

P.S. It WAS my dream also, but you know some of us have a FAMILY to SUPPORT.

 

[SDdriver]

BTW 46driver,

DOn't take my post the wrong way, I am not trying to insult you or anything, not trying to be mean in any way either, just making the point that if things keep going like they are going then even Captains are going to have to PFT to be able to fly. One more thing, a PFT guy is not looked at as a pilot, he is looked at as a paycheck. As far as resepct and good treatment goes, do you think they are going to treat a PFT guy in a good way? Hell no, they will try to treat him as poorly as possible so he will leave and they can get another check. I am sorry, that is just plain wrong. REmember dude, it is a job, not something you just do for fun, if that is the case go rent or buy a plane and do whatever you want, but when you are hauling paying passengers or freight, it is a job. It was always my dream, but my days of paying for flying ENDED when I got my commercial ticket. Then I thought, WOW I am going to be able to live my dream and get paid also, now that is not the case. Now we are back to stareing at the hobbs meter thinking GOSH how am I going to pay for this. No thanks man..Come on 46driver, I really don't think you believe that PFT is just because we have a bad economy. If nobody PFT'd then guess what, they would HAVE TO PAY. It just doesn't get any more simple than that. Economy or not, DON"T PAY AND THEY WILL PAY.
Take care..

SD