I'll bet this has been asked before

[eddie]

Thank you for those explanations! It would be great if they would just put it in the regs.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>It would be great if they would just put it in the regs.


Yeah, how dificult would it be to say "the reportd ceiling must be at or above the applicable MDA or DA" if that is what they meant? Ihstead we are left to argue whether "ceiling" is a "landing minimum" and what does "consider" mean?

 

[avbug]

Considering we just came from a presidency that asked us to define the word "is," it shouldn't be surprising.

I think that for the most part, the regulation is rather straight forward. My biggest beef is in those who ask before doing the legwork. Ya?

 

[eddie]

No person may take off an aircraft under IFR or begin an IFR or over-the-top operation unless the latest weather reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate that weather conditions at the estimated time of arrival at the next airport of intended landing will be at or above authorized IFR landing minimums.

AvBug,

The entire point of this thread is that the regulation is not straight forward. Where in there do you derive that ceiling is a required part of the minimums?

Thank you A Squared for posting that FAA opinion, it is certainly different from what I've been taught in the past.

 

[A Squared]

>>>it is certainly different from what I've been taught in the past.

Just so we're all reading off the same page; you mentioned having come to 135 from 121.... under 121 it is visibility which controls for continuing an approach, the regulation (121.651) specifies "...visibility to be equal or greater than the visibility minimums...."

That's another clue that something more than visibility is required by 135.219; when the regs mean visibility only, they say visibility


121 dispatch requriments, on the other hand use the same controversial wording as 135.219 and 135.225 ie: "weather conditions........at or above authorized IFR landing minimums." (121.613) Presumably, the same principle would apply....which brings up a question of my own: Anyone know of an interpretation which addresses 121.613 specifically? Is Ceiling required for dispatch under 121? or just visibility?

 

[Singlecoil]

What if the weather is 300 broken, and your MDA is 400 feet? There are many instances like this where you will be able to see the runway and land even though the "ceiling" is below you. The ceiling over the ASOS isn't always the same as what is over the runway, that's why I think you can take a look, but I appreciate A squared's well documented post.

 

[avbug]

The entire point of this thread is that the regulation is not straight forward. Where in there do you derive that ceiling is a required part of the minimums?

Why ask me? Wherein did I ever say yea or nay? I didn't.

I believe the regulation is clear in so far as one can understand it without having to look for loopholes.

If one is bound and determined to push minimums down to the wire, one can say that visibility is controlling, as spelled out in OpSpecs. However, in the event of an accident, or other occurances leading to enforcement action, one will be required to show why one thought one could obtain the required visibility when a reported ceiling is lower than published minimums.

Visibility for an approach is controlling in general, but a ceiling reported below minimums puts one in the position of risking judgement of judgement. The simple answer is that if it's below minimums, don't do it.

In the field and actual practice, of course, it's always a judgement call; just as this regulation intended. You have the flexibility to make a judgement. Simply be aware that the regulation will be applied conservatively in the event of enforcement action.

With that in mind, why push one's luck?

 

[ksu_aviator]

We had this exact question at our company and I happened to know someone within the FAA that got me the exact answer. To depart you must have a combination of the forecast or actual conditions above the ceiling and visibility minimums for the approach to be used. To begin the approach you must have the visibility reported at or above the minimum.

 

[A Squared]

KSU aviator,

Looking at your profile, I'm thinking you're flying 121, right? Did your FAA contact provide anything to back up that position? My reading of the wording of the regulation makes me lean toward visibility and ceiling required for dispatch, like you said, but there's so many people and airlines that seem to be using visibility only as a dispatch requirement, it makes me wonder. Got anything that sheds official light on hte question?

 

[Singlecoil]

Lets go back to the original post. ILS at destination and weather was 100 and a half. Even if you (and I contend you don't) have to consider the ceiling, shouldn't this captain have wanted to depart since you can descend down to 100 agl with the approach lights in sight?