Ifr Question

[A Squared]

501261,

There's no reason why you can't do what you say, but you should think about what you're going to do before you do it (and you obviously are!)

the things you need to think about are 1) hitting the ground, 2) hitting someone else and 3) violationg the regs.

1) hitting the ground. If there's no approach established for the airport, there's no departure procedure, nor has the terrain been evaluated. You're entirely on your own for terrain clearance, and you'd better be sure you know what's around you and how you can safely get to the enroute structure. If you're satisfied you have a handle on this, on to number 2, hitting someone else. That's a sticky one, you're trusting on luck to some extent. there could be someone legally stooging around in 1 mile and clear of clouds. there's a very slim chance there could be someone legally overflying your airplort IFR in class G airspace (very slim), there shouldn't be anyone on approach, as there's no approach procedure, and you need a IAP even in Class G. If you're willing to accept those risks, it's on to # 3. You need a clearence to fly IFR in controlled airspace. 1200 feet isn't going to give you much time to get a clearence after takeoff, and it's very likely that ATC doesn't have radio coverage at thos altitudes, so you want to get the clearence before departing. You should be able to get a clearence by phone from FSS or ATC. It will probably read something like "cleared to enter controlled airspace....." and will probably have a void time.

when you think about it, items 2 and 3 are not all that different than departing one of the many airports *with* an IAP and obstacle clearence procedure where the controlled airspace does not come all the way to the ground.

hope this helps

regards

 

[JBHewlett]

you've got my backing

I'll back you up on that one. You can legally depart a class golf airport under IFR in IMC. Now again that being said I wouldn't recommend doing it! You may have a hard time finding the take off minimums for these fields. There is alot of class Golf airspace out west. There are also alot of mountains out west as well. I wouldn't recommend doing this.

An instrument rating IS required. There was however mention of an instrument rating in the original post.

Finally yes you can go punch clouds in class golf airspace with out talking to anybody. Not the greatest idea though. This is what gets me about some of the CFR's, they allow people to do this kind of extremely dangerous stuff, and yet there are some regs that are so rediculous they need to be removed. I personally think this regulation should be removed.

Fly very safe!
J.

 

[501261]

Thanks A Squared,

Not too worried about #1; we're pretty light, since the also don't sell Jet A at this podunk, so we'll be up, up and away before we leave the airport boundary.

Not too worried about #2; there's nothing out here and we've got TCAS, and if I still manage to hit somebody, I've got the winning lottery ticket in my pocket!

I'm always worried about #3, plan that worst case scenario! What if Mr. FAA is driving by as we board? "Excuse, me where do you think you're going? This is Pokunk VFR and it's IMC?"

 

[BigFlyr]

I'm always worried about #3, plan that worst case scenario! What if Mr. FAA is driving by as we board? "Excuse, me where do you think you're going? This is Pokunk VFR and it's IMC?"

I was hoping not to return to this thread but I've got too much time on my hands lately.

As far as the legality of this senario is concerned we all pretty much agree that it is NOT illegal to fly IMC in class G, or depart a class G airport in IMC without a clearance or talking to anyone, as long as the pilot and airplane are IFR qualified, and therefore it's legal.

Ask yourself the following: Is it safe? You the PIC are responsible for the safety of the flight...

If that doesn't sway you... ask yourself "Would you do it with a Fed on board?" Well, would ya' Punk?

 

[dmspilot00]

Under Part 91 there are no takeoff minimums.

 

[JBHewlett]

501261,

Sorry I guess I should read all the post. I didn't read anything about you being stuck in the middle of no where and having to depart tommorow.

Its not illegal, so I wouldn't worry about the feds. Right now I would be more worried with how to pick up your clearance when the time comes to enter controlled airspace.

If you are sure that there is NOTHING out there then more power to you. I personally don't like zero zero take offs, however they can be done under part 91. I would wait untill the fogs burns at so you can see down the at least some distance.

Its probably not a good idea to make a habit of doing this because of a stand point of saftey.

Fly safe,
J.

 

[A Squared]

501261 wrote:

What if Mr. FAA is driving by as we board? "Excuse, me where do you think you're going? This is Pokunk VFR and it's IMC?"

Bigflyr wrote:

Ask yourself the following: Is it safe? You the PIC are responsible for the safety of the flight... If that doesn't sway you... ask yourself "Would you do it with a Fed on board?" Well, would ya' Punk?

Definately things to consider. You could politely ask the fed where in Part 91 it prohibits departing IFR, from an airport which doesn't have an IAP. The answer is "nowhere" but the fed might not be swift enough to realize that, and it could take some sorting out.

This situation is only slightly different than departing an airport *with* an IAP where the controlled airspace ends above the ground. The only real differnce is that # 1 is taken care of for you, if you follow the obstacle departure procedure. If the controlled airspace ends 700 ft AGL, then that only means that there's no one legally flying IFR enroute over you airport in the class G airspace, you still are exposed to the legal VFR scudrunners and the complete bandits. I suspect that many pilots don't realize how many airports with IAPs are located in Class G airspace. Whip out a sectional for any part of the country. At every airport that you see a magenta shaded circle but not a thin blue dashed circle, the controlled airspace stops at 700 ft AGL. There's a whole lot of them out there, and I bet a lot of pilots are flying IFR through Class G airspace without realizing it.



regards

 

[dmspilot00]

One more comment: Many (60%?) of the airports around here don't even have departure procedures; and yes they have IAPs.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>>One more comment: Many (60%?) of the airports around here don't even have departure procedures; and yes they have IAPs.

If they have IAPs, then they have been evaluated for obstacle clearence on departure. If there is no departure procedure published, that means the airport is suitable for a diverse departure....runway heading to 400 feet, then turn to join the enroute structure. note, this does not mean turn in any direction.


regards.

 

[givpicachanc]

If "1 mile and clear "wasnt safe they wouldnt put in the regs

 

[JBHewlett]

Dangerous Regs

One mile and clear of clouds may not always be safe. You would surprised at these regulations. The one about legally punching IMC in mountainous class golf airspace is dangerous enough! However you can do it know problem.

J.

 

[A Squared]

JBHEWLETT

>>>The one about legally punching IMC in mountainous class golf airspace is dangerous enough!

This is the second time you've expressed the opinion that IFR in CLass G airspace is somehow the actions of suicidal lunatics. I think that you have some misconceptions about these types of operations. They really aren't all that different that operations in controlled airspace, there's just some additional responsibility on the pilot.

You must maintain the same enroute terrain clearences, 1000 feet AGL, 2000 Ft AGL in mountainous terrain, the same criteria for enroute IFR in controlled airspace. The only difference is that it is the pilots responsibility to determine terrain clearence.

You must fly an IAP established according to the TERPs and flight checked by the FAA, just like in controlled airspace.

You are not required to fly an obstacle departure procedure... but then neither are you required do that in controlled airspace.

So, in the departure, engoute, and approach phases, you are bound by the same legal requirements.

A pilot who has done his homework and is flying by the rules (yes there are rules for IFR flight in Class G airspace) is no more likely to hit the ground than a pilot flying in controlled airspace.

The only real difference is that traffic seperation is not provided.


By the way, you can use the edit function to get rid of your extra posts. It's at the lower right corner of each post.

regards

 

[JBHewlett]

Well I guess thats true

Well I guess thats true, all things being considered. Its more work load on the pilot. With more work load comes more chances for a mistake to be made. Its all about planning and origanization. Anyone who has ever taken an instrument checkride or flies IFR knows that.

Traffic seperation in a problem I suppose. However (from what I have heard and read) since upwards of 75% of pilots are not instrument rated, its probably not real likely that you are going to have traffic problems trying to get in and out of a class golf VFR airport, when the weather conditions are less then optimal.

Have a great one,
J.

PS - thanks for letting me know about the edit function.

 

[Clearsky]

Great discussion, its been a real learning experience.

I think we can be willing to learn and share information about aviation without creating conflict. At least its those type of personalities that impress me the most, whether or not they are correct on one particular issue.

 

[501261]

I want to thank everybody for their responses, especially A Squared (you've obviously done a lot of this). IFR in Class G is a nice tool to use if you can use it safely. Certainly an informative threat!

Had no problem getting out of Podunk, it's actually a very friendly place. Apparently, I also need to learn how to reread Sectionals, because the Class G went all the way up to 14,500 MSL out here (told you I was out in the boonies)!

The airport manager said "this is a great place to fly IFR, never have to talk to anyone!" .....that was a comforting thought(sarc.)!

Apparently they go out all the time in the clouds and never talk or receive clearance from anyone (as X Guppy so wisely mentioned the PIC becomes the clearance authority).

One of my questions was can I receive a clearance on the ground at a VFR only airport? The answer is yes, the manager said some people do get a clearance void time. Personally, I decided to do what the locals do and not bother with it (after making sure he didn't have any airplanes up)!

One final thought on this learning experience. The Class G went all the way up to 14,500 MSL, but I was in radar contact and received my clearance (as filed) leaving 7000' MSL. Any thoughts on this? My own thoughts are the controller was simply being easy and not adding "Entering controlled airspace" or something to that affect.

 

[501261]

Just another thought on this subject, It seemed to me that there is some confusion with doing things legally and people doing things that aren’t quite legal, but calling it legal because they haven't been violated doing it.

One of the big issues here I believe is the need to keep terrain separation. I think that might be one of the easiest ways to get violated flying IFR at a VFR Class G airport. A Squared has nice DP, but Spike how do you know you have legal terrain clearance?

Of course I did not have a Jepp page 10-7 Airport Analysis for this place. Nor did I actually go out an measure the trees and power lines, so how can I be absolutly sure there are no obstances in my way? With good visibility below the 1000' overcast I was fairly certain that there were no obstacles in my way. However, I could just imagine this hypothetical conversation with the FAA.

FAA: Sir, are you trying to depart?

Me: Yes sir.

FAA: Well, you see we've been trying to get this airport an IAP for years, but you see that 250' tall tree about a 1/4 mile off the runway?"

Me: Yes Sir.

FAA: Well, you see that tree screws up all the TERPS criteria, you need to have something like a 1200' per nm rate of climb to clear it.

Me: But its no were close to the centerline.

FAA: Well it's just close enough. Say just what might your rate climb be on one engine.

Me: We're pretty light, but I don't think even F-15 on afterburner has a 1200' per nm rate of climb on 1 engine.

FAA: That's right, and that's why there's no Instrument procedure in here, and that's why I'm going to need to see you license for a possible 91.177 violation.

 

[A Squared]

JBHewlett,

>>>Its more work load on the pilot. With more work load comes more chances for a mistake to be made.

Yes, this is certainly true, and is something to think about, also there's no-one there to catch mistakes you might make.


501261

>>>>>how do you now you have legal terrain clearance?


Well, what is legal terrain clearence? 91.177 has an exception for "when necessary for taking off and landing" and you're taking off. At the start of your takeoff roll, your terrain clearence is zero. Not to be flip but, even on an approved Obstacle departure procedure, you can be really close to some very hard objects early in the departure.

regarding the tree, that's what they make chainsaws for, but be careful, 450 feet is a *really* big tree.

Seriously though, such a tree wouldn't pose insurmountable difficulties for an Obstacle Departure Procedure. I fly regularly out of an airport with a pretty tall NDB antenna right off the departure end of one of the runways, not 450 feet, but certainly tall enough to poke through the Obstacle Identification Surface. The ODP from that runway calls for an immediate left turn. Note, If you see "immediate" turn in a Departure preocedure, it means just that, immediate,..... wheels up, turn. Retract flaps and reduce power later.

As far as your scenario, you were departing under a 1000' ceiling, with good visibility. That's no more hazardous than departing on a crystal clear day VFR, right? By turning away from the tree after takeoff, you could provide yourself with the same clearence which would be afforded by an official Obstacle Departure Procedure. The simplest soulution though, is wind permitting, depart in the opposite direction. As for maintaining terrain clearence with an engine out, I'm not aware of any requirement for that in Part 91.

regards

 

[cvsfly]

A Squared quote "You are not required to fly an obstacle departure procedure... but then neither are you required do that in controlled airspace." Where is the interpretation for this? If you are required to use published IAPs according to TERPS criteria under Part 97, what governs departures under IFR? Aren't they under Part 97 as well (I do not have a working knowledge of Part 97) I always knew Part 91 could depart without takeoff minimums (as they only apply to 121/125/127/129/135) but that one had to abide by any published departure procedure (i.e. minimum climb gradients, turns and directions, and/or weather minimums like 1400'/1). Where are some of these examples of areas in contnental U.S. in relatively flat land where the Class G goes all the way to 14,500'? Just asking.

 

[A Squared]

CVS,

Yes, you are required to use an IAP, but Part 91 is silent on departure procedures. One might be tempted to construe 91.177 as requiring them in a convoluted way, 91.177 references Part 97, part 97, incorperates the TERPS, DP's are designed according to the TERPS, ergo you must fly a DP or be in violation of 91.177. tempting, but incorrect. Here's a legal interpretation from the office of Chief Counsel:

November 30, 1993
Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:

This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).

Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.

The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.

In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.

Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the applicable ATC clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC or under IMC.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division



As far as the Class G to 14.5 in the continental US, I dunno, Utah? Wyoming? Nevada? Montana?

501261, where were ya?

BTW, I'm not advocating ignoring ODPs. If there's one published, I'm going to use it unless it's really good visual conditions

regards