Ifr Question

[BigFlyr]

Alright Spike,

Just to make you happy I'm going to say I'm wrong and you're right. But let me beat the dead horse just a bit more. First of all, I don't give a rats @$$ how many people may agree or disagree with me. I need facts. You appear to have many so therefore I agree. You're right about not having flown in those areas. I have flown in several parts of the world where position reporting is required though, for lack of radar coverage. This makes sense to me.

What does not make sense to me is the one comment about doing an entire flight in "IMC" ( trust me, I know what that means) conditions from takeoff to landing without a clearance, without talking to anyone, without any kind of traffic separation other than maintaining IFR cruising altitudes, once level, has to make you wonder... Can I do this? Is it safe? If its not, how can it be legal? Again, I am aware that certain carriers have Ops specs for certain operations because they are not specified otherwise. Please don't talk to me like I haven't a clue. I've got more hours as a CFI alone than your posted total and would like to stand corrected but understanding why. If Its not clear to me, then I assure you it may not be clear to others. Also, lets see if you can clear it up without insulting me by stating the obvious. And let me add that I never had an issue about flight under IFR in class G airspace. Why the FAA designates certain areas as class G other than for lack of radar coverage is perhaps a TERPS question, which is not the issue here. I do, however have an issue about flying in IMC (can't see squat) without the benefit of any kind of traffic separation... no communications with ATC, no radar coverage, no clearance. OK? Be gentle now!

 

[flx757]

BigFlyr,

A Squared has spelled it out very clearly, and in great detail. How much clearer does it need to be? Re-read A Squared's most recent post...and the others, if need be. The questions you have and the issues you raise are answered. Several times.

He (and I) have provided FAR references, such as 91.173, and 91.179.

Also, common sense dictates that if airpace is classified as "uncontrolled", then that's exactly what it is. I have also flown in many parts of the world where position reporting is required due to the non-radar environment, but we are still in contact with ATC (obviously), and are in controlled airspace. While I might agreee that you, as the PIC, might decide for whatever the reason, that it might not be prudent to operate under IFR in IMC in Class G airspace, the FARs give you the authority to do so......legally.

Oh, BTW......desert pilot started this thread with his question, and hasn't been heard from since. What say YOU, desert pilot??

 

[cvsfly]

Very interesting discussion. I have not really considered it before. My flying is mostly eastern US with occasional forays out west and Caribbean. One question considering all of this. When you depart an uncontrolled airport that has Class E stopping at 700' or 1200' and you get your IFR clearance on the ground. Your clearance reads "cleared to XYZ airport as filed. Enter controlled airspace heading 270*. Contact.... Squawk ....". Let us say the weather is 500' BKN and 1 mile. You depart runway 09 and start turning to 270*. I have always assumed ATC will hold up other inbound/outbound IFR traffic until you are coordinated/communicated with ATC airborne, correct. I do realize that ATC cannot guarrentee traffic seperation in class G. Any one attempting to operate IFR below 700 or 1200 agl would not be able meet the regulatory requirements of IFR, correct? So the only worry we should have is the VFR guy who is flying with 1 mile and clear of clouds, right? Or from this discussion should we worry about an unknown (no clearance/no communication) IFR operator in class G while we are transitioning from Class G to class E on an IFR clearance? If this is true, I may rethink departing a class G airport unless the ceiling is at or close to the class E base. I agree there are very few places in the continental US where one would be in cruise flight in class G and class G is not predicated on areas of radar coverage. What is the standard operating procedure to operate IFR in Alaska in class G? Is it possible for more than one flight to be operating IFR/IMC in the same airspace with no coordination/flight plan?

 

[Vik]

Bigflyr,

I just took my instrument checkride not too long ago and what everyone is telling you pretty much correct. The examiner even asked me this question.

 

[cvsfly]

Typically from what I know of 135 Ops Specs and I assume 121 is that the provision on operating IFR in class G (domestic/continental US) is soley for purposes of transition to an approach and departure from an airport terminal area. It is not authorization to cruise IFR in class G from airport ABC to XYZ. There maybe special operations areas for an operator that needs this (ie Alaska, Canada or other remote areas) and then I'm sure some operational conditions go along with it.

 

[Vik]

I've got a peachy keen solution to all this ...

Just call your local FSDO and ask'em.

That way we don't spend a year trying to explain how flight may be conducted in IMC in Class G w/o a clearance and w/o talking to anyone.

 

[desert pilot]

To 757 and others-the question came up during my IPC with a new CFI/CFII,while training in the west most of us get our instrument rating without seeing the inside of a cloud,I suggested if possible to do it SAFELY-PUNCH A CLOUD,HE SAID THAT IT WOULD BE ILLEGAL! For practical reasons the x-country happens many times under blue skies,thanx all-great answers!

 

[bigD]

Desert Pilot - maybe it's the lack of any real punctuation in your post, but I don't follow. You say your CFII told you that it'd be illegal to fly in IMC while training? I'm confused.

 

[spike]

I LOVE THIS BOARD

SORRY BIG FLYR

I really didn't mean to come across as insulting.

One comment was made about IFR altitudes, remember that only counts for CONTROLLED airspace. You can fly at ANY altitude you want in uncontrolled airspace and punch as many clouds as you want if you are IFR rated period.

Oh yea, just to make things interesting Controlled airspace only goes up to FL 600 so you could fly legally fly up there too. Getting there is another question alltogether

 

[spike]

Response to VIK

Ha, ha, ha

Ever tried to call 5 or 6 FSDO's with the same question. You will never get the same answer every time. Especially with any GOOD question.

The only legally binding answer from an FAA person has to come from the legal department in Atlanta. you have to write them and wait 4-6 weeks.

Call a FSDO and ask, that is a good one. Sorry to sound condescending, but I thought that is what you do. Then I asked CFI recert questions and called FSDOs from around the question and MAN they all gave me different answers and the best thing was that most backed them up with different parts of the DE handbook.

Remember we are dealing with the FAA.

 

[spike]

Big Flyrs answer

Here is how you fly a IFR flight in class G.

You just do it. Say vis is 1/2 mile so it is IFR right. I can take off from any class G airport and say fly at 1100 feet(below Class e) punch in and out of clouds. follow a road or navigate to an airport that is class G (with navaids) and land. If uncontrolled airspace goes up high enough you could shoot an instrument approach into an uncontrolled airport without ever turning on the com radio and be PERFECTLY LEGAL (stupid though).

Many controlled airports go to class G at night or when tower is closed so it is POSSIBLE. That is the issue is it possible and legal YES. Practical, safe and done often, no.

 

[flx757]

Re: I LOVE THIS BOARD

One comment was made about IFR altitudes, remember that only counts for CONTROLLED airspace. You can fly at ANY altitude you want in uncontrolled airspace

I wasn't going to post again on this thread, but I will make this one exception.

You are wrong in your statement about ANY altitude. If you are going to fly IFR in Class G (uncontrolled) airspace, you must still follow all applicable FARs for Instrument Flight Rules. Specifically, FAR 91.179(b) lists the cruise altitudes for IFR flight in Class G (uncontrolled) airspace. As has been posted above.....over and over.

over...and out.

 

[A Squared]

Bigflyr,

Is it possible you have assumed that I am the same person as "spike" ? Your post is addressed to spike, but appears to be responding to things I wrote.

>>>>I don't give a rats @$$ how many people may agree or disagree with me.

I’ve never been a big fan of determining the truth by popular vote either....but, if a number of people are telling me I am wrong on a factual issue, I tend to very carefully examine my position to see if there is perhaps something I’m missing. That’s all I meant, not that something is true because a lot of people say it’s true.

>>>>Please don't talk to me like I haven't a clue.

Sorry, some of your statements led me to believe that you have some fundamental flaws in your understanding of some of the basic concepts.

Your comment; "....be contained entirely within class G airspace for lack of radar coverage" , seemed to suggest that you believed that Class G airspace was just airspace which didn’t have radar coverage. Surely you can agree that an understanding of the nature of Class G airspace is central to the discussion? It seemed to me that you didn’t understand it.

As far as my IFR/VFR explanation, I have gone back and re-read your comments several times. It still seems that you were saying that you may be IFR but not allowed to enter IMC, which obviously suggests lack of understanding of what IFR is..... If that’s not what you were saying, what were you saying.?


>>>What does not make sense to me is the one comment about doing an entire flight in "IMC" ( trust me, I know what that means) conditions from takeoff to landing without a clearance, without talking to anyone, without any kind of traffic separation other than maintaining IFR cruising altitudes, once level, has to make you wonder ....Can I do this? Is it safe? If its not, how can it be legal?


No, you do not have guaranteed separation. No, there is no clearance, clearances just do not exist in Class G airspace Yes, you are taking a chance that you may run into another airplane legally doing the same thing you are. Here’s what keeps you from colliding:

The Sky is very Big, your airplane is very small

Flying the designated altitudes helps reduce the possibility of collision. (at least head-on collisions).

Position announcing helps to resolve potential conflicts, unfortunately, there is no designated enroute advisory frequency, as there is in Canada and Australia. 122.9 is customarily used, as it is also the CTAF at the majority of airports.

Since the advent of GPS, many pilots have taken to offsetting their course to the right of a straight line between the airports or navaids. Some fly half a mile off, some fly a mile off, etc. obviously, this would be of no benefit if everyone offset by the same amount.

When we fly on one of these routes, we are required to contact and coordinate with the other operators and carriers who are approved for that route. This reduces the possibility of a collision enormously. The chance that someone other than a commercial operator would be flying along these routes in IMC is astronomically small. People just don’t hop in their planes and decide to fly to these places. There are no hundred dollar hamburgers. Most of the destinations are military radar facilities, or privately owned mines. Someone who was not an operator on contract would not be welcome at these places.


OK, is this safe, this boring around through the clouds without anyone ensuring separation for m others doing the same thing?

Well, what is safe? Safe is a relative term, life has risks.
I think that the risk of a collision in the clouds is very, very small. You have to keep in mind a couple of things:

This is in Class G, there isn’t much traffic. If there was substantial traffic, the FAA would classify it Class E and assume the responsibility for separating traffic. These are places where you can fly for a hundred miles and not see a single sign of other humans, no fields, no towns, no houses, no roads, no nothing. There just aren’t very many people, and as a result, not very many airplanes.

Personally I’d feel a lot safer flying at 2000+ feet above the terrain in the clouds between Koyuk and Buckland, than I would flying on an IFR clearance, in radar contact, on the airway, talking to center, at 4000 ft on a sunny day on the east coast of Florida. Airplanes are crashing into each other all the time in Florida, and it’s no wonder, they’re thicker than mosquitoes. By contrast, I don’t know of any collisions between 2 airplanes in IMC in Alaska, ever. I’ve done both, and I like the odds here a lot better.

Does this answer your questions?


CVSfly,

theoretically, at least, you could depart into a 500 foot ceiling at an airport where the controlled airspace starts at 1200 ft AGL and collide with an airplane legally flying in IMC. It’s unlikely, as it would have to be in a place that was almost perfectly flat with no obstacles higher than 100 feet for many miles for the other guy to be legal, but it’s at least theoretically possible. Anytime you are outside of Controlled airspace, you are not on a clearance, and separation is not being provided.

Yes, it’s possible for 2 aircraft to be operating in the same proximity in IMC. As with all things in life, there are risks.

Yes, we (my company) do have authorization for enroute operations in Class G airspace.

Vik,

I’m with Spike on this one, I’d be extremely skeptical of a FSDO as a source of truth.

Spike

No you may not fly at any altitude. 91.179 (b) specifies required cruising altitudes for flight in Class G airspace.

Desert Pilot,

If you are at the correct altitude, and your airplane is appropriately equipped, and your CFII is legally cirrent, and you are in Class G airspace, then Yes, you may punch through a cloud. If your Instructor says differently, he is wrong.

There, have I left anyone out?

regards

 

[spike]

Big Flyrs answer

Here is how you fly a IFR flight in class G.

You just do it. Say vis is 1/2 mile so it is IFR right. I can take off from any class G airport and say fly at 1100 feet(below Class e) punch in and out of clouds. follow a road or navigate to an airport that is class G (with navaids) and land. If uncontrolled airspace goes up high enough you could shoot an instrument approach into an uncontrolled airport without ever turning on the com radio and be PERFECTLY LEGAL (stupid though).

Many controlled airports go to class G at night or when tower is closed so it is POSSIBLE. That is the issue is it possible and legal YES. Practical, safe and done often, no.

 

[spike]

A squared is right again.

As Homer Simpson would say, "DOOH!"

You're right, I confused the VFR and IFR altitude regs.

Yes IFR altitudes state any altitude below 18,000MSL ect...

Good call A squared, ... learned something today.

 

[desert pilot]

big d,the idea was to punch a cloud in class g if possible-safe and legal,about the training in the west-many get the ticket without clouds,so if you see a tiny cloud in the middle of nowhere-just an idea.

 

[BigFlyr]

Sorry A Squared, I did confuse some of your statements with some of Spikes. You obviously know what you're talking about and I cannot find any regulations to the contrary, which is probably why this was an interesting topic.

If taking off in zero vis. under part 91 is legal (stupid but legal) then why not fly an entire flight in class G airspace in IMC conditions without a clearance?...I guess that's legal too. Until the day there is a mid-air under those conditions. Besides, the FAA is just another government agency and it would take an act of God to change something before its too late.

As far as being on an IFR flight and not being allowed to enter IMC... yes this can happen if you have a clearance limit. It was my contention that unless you had a clearance to continue under IFR in class G airspace in IMC conditions, that you would have to maintain VFR on top until such clearance was recieved. But that would make too much sense. I guess your justification of flying IMC under IFR in class G as being legal and relatively safe due the the big sky and the small plane will have to suffice.

Unless I can prove you wrong I guess you're right!

Just one more thought before I go... Who would be at fault in the event of a mid-air between two non-TCAS equipped airplanes while flying IMC in class G without the benefit of ATC separation?
Both at the proper cruising altitudes?

Time to go lick my wounds and brush up on the regs...

 

[Xguppy]

Hmmm....

Totally agree with A Squared... but maybe a nickel in the grass (that means something to some of you) will help:

When operating IFR in uncontrolled airspace, the PIC is the "clearance authority". (In controlled airspace, ATC is the clearance authority.)

For those wanting examples, look at SW Texas between El Paso and Del Rio... lots of opportunity for this discussion ... AND you are below radio contact for much of ATC (I fly there frequently).

g'luck all..

XGuppy

 

[501261]

Sorry to rehash this old threat, but it's has been very informative.

So now I have a real-life scenario regarding this threat.

I'm stuck out in the boonies and we're supposed to depart this dump tomorrow morning, unfortunately as I am sitting here writing this fog is starting to roll in! This hole I'm overnighting at is a VFR-only airport in Class G with Class E airspace at 1200' feet above.

So the question now is; Can I LEGALLY depart this uncontrolled VFR-only airport tomorrow morning under 91 if the Vis is say 1/4 mile?

I seem to remember that you needed 1sm and clear of clouds in Class G for VFR, now can I be can I depart IFR from a VFR only airport?

Can I even pick up an IFR clearance from a VFR field?

Spike, a question about one of your post. How do can you maintain legal terrain separation, if you "just do it?" I have no doubt that what A Squared is doing is legal since he is an IFR procedure ruled by TERPS criteria, but there are none here!

Terrain is not an issue here, I’m just trying to think of possible gotcha’s that might come into play.

Thanks in advance for you're replies!

 

[Vik]

501261,

Just after this thread ended, I found an AOPA Safety Advisor booklet on airspace. I am not a member of AOPA, so I don't know if it is availalbe online. It had a trivia question in there that went to the effect,

"Can you legally depart an airport in Class G in IFR conditions?"

and the answer said you could, if you were instrument rated.

As far as terrain, use your charts to figure that one out and pray no one built a building at the end of the runway between when the chart was published and when you are taking off.

Just make sure you pick up your IFR clearance before entering controlled airspace that is in IFR conditions.

Oh yeah, make sure you are instrument rated too Its *REQUIRED* even in uncontrolled airspace.

I'm not an expert, so hopefully someone will back me up (but the upside is I got my instrument ticket less than a year ago).