IFR Lost Comm's

[JetBlast2000]

question .... what do you do in VMC conditions in Class A airspace, according to the rules ? (not the 'best' judgement call, but what the rules say ?)

Assuming you broke out in Class A... That is the only time you could go VFR. Up until that point you were on an IFR clearance. Now your VMC looking for a suitable airport. If that was the case, I would stay IFR until I could descend VMC to a suitable airport.

 

[Bandit60]

This is just a reminder from a check ride i took with a lost comm.....although we got the comm back after about 20min and were able to complete the flight, we made the best move possible by immediatly looking at the chart and finding the mea on the airway we were assigned, and climbed to that altitude. In this situation we would have crashed if we did not do this because our last assigned altitude was too low for the airway.

After completing this sim check ride the examiner told me that at that time we were the only crew in 3years that he had been giving this scenorio and to do the right thing.

Its such a simple thing to get all wraped up in the comm problem and forget to fly the airplane.

Good luck to everyone and fly safely

 

[LAZYB]

Uh, where is this?

Are we talking North/South Dakota, or upper Maine? I don't think I've had a "clearance limit" - short of destination - since training some 20+ years ago. 99% of the time you're cleared to the airport - not a VOR, fix, or waypoint.

Usually, if your in a busy airspace, they won't give you your clearence to the final destination anyhow, but only to a point outside either the departure airport or outside the destination, known as your "clearence limit". <- and thats what the FARs talk about.

NORDO

 

[mattpilot]

I've personally never gotten one, since all my IFR XC where late at night. Even when going to DAL they gave me clearence all the way.


One of the instructors here, however, said that when he went down to DAL during the afternoon (busiest time), he only got cleared to the MLC VOR (not even half way there), had to hold there for 30 min, then got clearence to continue to DAL.

He said it was quite common to get something like that if you fly non-scheduled GA operations at busy times of the day.

 

[minitour]

...While I am reading this, another lost comm thread comes to my mind where the point was weather one could enter a class D in loss comm and it seemed the answer was no, since you can't establish 2-way comm.

So what if you fly this lost comm scenario and you fly over a class D or C, or even B and you and the airport is in VMC. Would you land?...
Thanks a lot for any replies on the above.

I just took my pvt checkride about a week and a half ago and the DE actually brought up this question on the oral...weird...he actually added night flight as part of the variables

I told him that although the regs said "no" because I couldn't obtain the 2 way comms or the clearance for the B, if I was in already B, I'd land at a suitable airport...if I was NOT in the B already, I'd stay out and find a suitable airport unless IMC conditions behind me prevented me from doing such...

...as far as C and D airspace, I said if that was my nearest place, that's where I'm going...

...my reasoning was that squawking 7600 ATC can vector traffic around me because they can talk to them but not me...if I go uncontrolled, 1) how do I turn on the lights? 2) How do I know who's out there?

now I know lots of people fly into and out of uncontrolled airports all the time without radios and its not "really" an "emergency", but in this situation my answer was to declare an emergency and put it on the ground...

...he agreed, so as far as I'm concerned, that's the FAA's representative's answer...

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Lets examine one crucial element here.


91.185 was written when there it was mostly non radar.

So, your gonna fly from LAX - BOS under 91.185 rules, your legal but your a pain in the butt!!!

We can see you, we can see your 7600 xpdr code. We will clear the airspace and you can go shoot the approach.

91.185 was written during non radar when they couldnt see you. Now we can!

 

[huncowboy]

Lets examine one crucial element here.

91.185 was written when there it was mostly non radar.



So, your gonna fly from LAX - BOS under 91.185 rules, your legal but your a pain in the butt!!!



We can see you, we can see your 7600 xpdr code. We will clear the airspace and you can go shoot the approach.



91.185 was written during non radar when they couldnt see you. Now we can!

I think most people try to cover their rear and think like that (especially after all the pain and $ it took to train, then to get a job... if they still have a job):

following the regs to the letter = no violation

being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. You could get a violation just for the mere fact of the deviation. Is anyone going to report you for that? May be not because they are all happy that you were not a pain in the rear. But the decision is not yours anymore.

IMO the pain is not you (the pilot), but the FARs. But I guess what do I know anyways...

At the moment I still can't make up my mind weather "as close as possible to the ETA" means to hold... I guess it does, since it is "possible" to get closer to your ETA if you hold, in case you are early. Why couldn't they just write "hold" instead.

I was given the example that ATC might have not informed you about anything that goes on at the destination airport before your ETA, since it is irrelevant for you. Had you filed an earlier ETA they would have told you to hold if for any reason the airport or runway is unusable at that time… but now you are early and you start your approach before your ETA. I know the example sounds like a sci-fi but so do 90% of the comm scenarios.

 

[JAFI]

huncowboy said:

"being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- You may want to read 91.3 (b) again ----


JAFI


91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

 

[JediNein]

• Handheld transceiver: $80.00 (ebay)
• Cell Phone (free) + rate plan: $29.99
• Being cleared direct to a suitable airport by ATC after total comm failure:

Priceless.


​

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[huncowboy]

huncowboy said:

"being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- You may want to read 91.3 (b) again ----


JAFI


91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

I am not sure if me, flying in my 172, with enough fuel, with ceilings at 800' is always going to amount to an emergency just because I have lost radio. I can see when throwing some additional stuff into the scenario how it could become one, but definitely not always.

I guess there are these "well defined" (sarcasm) rules so that a radio failure does not necessarily become an emergency. I will rather go by them and not try to defend myself with 91.3 later on. In general I would rather try to avoid getting into a position where I have to defend myself.

BTW good luck declearing an emergency to yourself while an F16 is behind you trying to figure out what you are up to.

 

[philo beddoe]

The real issue here is that academics aside, there is little chance of a "pure" lost comm situation, where everything works except comm.

Let's look at lost comm troubleshooting:

Can't hear ATC-----------------
Check volume knob
Check squelch (some radios)
Check all the mic buttons (hand mic also) for sticking
Try hand mic
Try other radio
Try overhead speaker
Check audio panel
Check circuit breakers/fuses

Can hear ATC, but can't transmit----------------------
Try other mics
Try hand mic
Try other radio
Try other PTT on other yoke
Try other headset
Check ALL circuit breakers. (I read one example where the transmitter relay was on the same CB with some other unrelated piece of equipment)

And the one that many people forget:

Find the nearest VOR with duplex FSS transmission (i.e. YOU transmitt on 122.1) Freq will read 122.1R or other freq. Turn up volume. Wait and see if FSS calls you (if your center controller is on the ball, they will try this). Respond by identing. Fly as cleared.

Your nav doesn't work either you say? Well this is no longer a lost comm scenario, is it? What we've got here is either an avionics bus failure or total electrical failure. You are on your own regarding regs and recommended procedure. Common sense is now required. Good luck, and we're all counting on you.