IFR Lost Comm's

[need2AV8]

I overheard an instrument oral exam at the 141 school where I work. A scenario was posed to the student, as follows: If on a flight (solid IMC) from LAX to BOS you lose comm's 10 minutes after takeoff, what do you do? The student gave the FAR based answers. The check airman then advised the student that following the FAR's for lost comm's under IFR (more specifically, IMC) would not be using common sense in this case - simply return to the departure airport.

Personally, I don't see that the FAR's allow for us to return to the departure airport. The FAR's are very specific about what should be done and I see nothing to support the check airman's opinion. The only way I see around the lost comm FAR's is to say that lost comm's are an emergency and you can deviate to the extent necessary to meet that emergency.

I'd like your opinions . . .

 

[JB74]

My low time opinion,

Lost comms are not necessarily an "emergnecy" due to the fact that perfectly safe procedures exist for this event. Squawk 7600 and fly your assigned routing until in VMC. Then drop into an uncontrolled field and get on the phone. ATC might not have enough time to clear the airspace if you are only a couple miles out and return to shoot an approach.

If the departure airport is VMC and uncontrolled, then he would be correct.

 

[350DRIVER]

I would tend to agree with the check airman on this.


10 minutes out and lost them, return to the departure airport so you do not tie up sectors and airspace all across the country that ATC would have to clear out for you.


seems pretty simple..

3 5 0

 

[CatYaaak]

I would tend to agree with the check airman on this.


10 minutes out and lost them, return to the departure airport so you do not tie up sectors and airspace all across the country that ATC would have to clear out for you.


seems pretty simple..

3 5 0

Sorry, but this is faulty advice..dangerous actually. If you continue on your filed route/plan, and arrive at your dest, they will handle you like any IFR flight. Seperation is guaranteed. They aren't going to have to hastily "clear out" airspace sectors for you....you've been issued a clearance before you departed and assigned a space in the airway system. They may lack the flexibility to issue deviations to you etc., but they know your intentions as per the flight plan and clearance. Since the regs spell-out what is expected of you, that's what they'll expect you to do also. You may be silent but you are a known quantity IF you follow them. By itself, lost comm is not considered an emergency.

If you suddenly began wandering around in IMC, meandering on their scopes in a radar environment (or worse yet in a non-radar one) making up your own return routes, choosing your own approach..all this especially in a busy terminal area...well, you might have a plan but you have no way to communicate this, and they have NO idea what you're intending to do, or even what airport you're headed for. THEN you'd see some major sector and airspace clearning by ATC, and you might just set the single-aircraft record for causing RAs......if you're lucky.

Most importantly (and especially if you're flying a larger aircraft) these days do you think it's wise to take-off, and then suddenly turn around after 10 minutes and head back towards a major metropolitan area, off course, incommunicado, and against what the regs say? You've exactly re-created a scenario every ATCer is looking-out for to scramble the F-15s. In IMC, those interceptors won't be able to get a visual..so the choice is...... you get my point.

It's another story if you run across VMC conditions, and there has been at least one ruling against a pilot continuing an IFR flight after lost comm while he overflew numerous suitable airfields, so the best thing to do as the previous poster pointed out was land. But this scenario here was dealing with IMC conditions.

That check airman needs some serious remedial training, or this scenario and/or his advice has been related incorrectly. He's got nothing in our regs, ATC procedures, or the arena of common sense to back him up. He's just making up sh1t, the dangerous kind, and planting it where it shouldn't be.

 

[mattpilot]

i agree with Catyaaak completely.

Usually, if your in a busy airspace, they won't give you your clearence to the final destination anyhow, but only to a point outside either the departure airport or outside the destination, known as your "clearence limit". <- and thats what the FARs talk about. If IMC, you continue to your clearence limit (not necessarily your final destination), and then you begin to look for the nearest IAF (most likely the clearence limit is an IAF) to the nearest 'suitable' airport.

 

[nosehair]

It's not Rote

That check airman needs some serious remedial training, or this scenario and/or his advice has been related incorrectly. He's got nothing in our regs, ATC procedures, or the arena of common sense to back him up. He's just making up sh1t, the dangerous kind, and planting it where it shouldn't be.

Aeronautical Information Manual, Section 4, Two Way Radio Communications Failure: Quote:
(a)"It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio failure...pilots are expected to exercise good judgement in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate, they should not be reluctant to use the emergency authority contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b)."

He's not making it up - it's in the book. It is a judgement call. Personally, I would not return to LAX, no more than I would go to BOS. I would stay on Altitude and Cleared route until I scoped out a non-towered, not-busy airport with an instrument approach and land there. This is assuming continuous IMC.
This scenairo has been discussed with others who are ATC. Everyone has an opinion that varies, because local ATC procedures vary.
I really don't think I want to go IMC into a Class B airport with no comm and no clearance. Really, I will take my chances into a small no-traffic airport.
The main thing to realize is that the AIM encourages use of 91.3(b) and student training needs to include the use of imagination and pre-flight planning to include some posssible plans of action in event of lost comm. Just blindly memorizing the "standard" procedure of 91.185 is not enough. That is the procedure to follow until you decide that another course of action would be more safer - in your judgement.

 

[Vector4fun]

It's just a dumb question. Has anyone ever flown non-stop from LAX to BOS and been solid IMC the entire flight? Depending on the route, the Homeland Security/TSA rules contradict the FAA's rules.


Carry a cell phone, screw the FCC. Call an ATC facility and get an amended clearance to land. That's my answer.

 

[FracCapt]

It's another story if you run across VMC conditions, and there has been at least one ruling against a pilot continuing an IFR flight after lost comm while he overflew numerous suitable airfields, so the best thing to do as the previous poster pointed out was land. But this scenario here was dealing with IMC conditions.

This is where it can get really messy. Say you take off out of LAX, enroute to BOS. You maintain your initially assigned altitude, then 5 or 10 minutes after takeoff(whatever you were told to expect) you climb to your filed altitude - the whole time IMC. You're at your cruise altitude for 2 hours with a solid layer beneath you.....then, the layer ends. Severe clear. But you're tooling along at FL370. What then? Plug a nearby airport into the FMS, hit direct, and start down? Start descending on filed routing til below 18,000MSL then turn toward the airport? Too many people say "If you come to VMC conditions, land. If you're in cruise, at your filed altitude, along your cleared routing....ATC is gonna expect you to keep going toward your desination more than likely. If you start descending, you may cause a lot of traffic conflicts. At this point, it's a judgement call....and hopefully to make that judgement call you have the assistance of TCAS with a 40nm range.

 

[350DRIVER]

CatYaaak,

If the guy took off in VMC then I would only think that he could return under certain circumstances, it would seem to defy not only logical reasoning but common sense as well to continue on under certain circumstances. I don't think enough detailed information was provided to make a correct response, I should have been more clear on my first response to this thread. If the pilot was solid IMC at the time of the failure then yes obviously he would have to continue per the regulations and not deviate since ATC is expecting things to flow in a and happen in a certain way. I guess one can "assume" things but I would like more information on the exact scenario that this student was given, ex> when did the flight become "solid imc"?, what type of aircraft was he in?, filed route?, did he declare an emergency? etc, etc,.


3 5 0

 

[nosehair]

It's just a dumb question. Has anyone ever flown non-stop from LAX to BOS and been solid IMC the entire flight? Depending on the route, the Homeland Security/TSA rules contradict the FAA's rules.

Ri-i-i-ght!! It's a TRAINING question - a question designed to promote THINKING.
Thinking & Planning. What if - scenarios.

Again, I will point to the AIM reference that no regulation can cover all possible scenarios, and you should not hesitate to use your FAR 91.3(b) authority.

 

[User546]

Hey... just keep going... it'll be the most quiet and peaceful flight you'll ever get to take across the country!

But on a more serious note, I think the most prudent, and FAR compliant thing you could do is to go ahead and fly the lost comm procedures until you reach VMC (which normally isn't too far up the road) and then simply break off your flight plan and land VFR at a suitable airport.

 

[mattpilot]

hmmmm

question .... what do you do in VMC conditions in Class A airspace, according to the rules ? (not the 'best' judgement call, but what the rules say ?)

 

[Vector4fun]

Ri-i-i-ght!! It's a TRAINING question - a question designed to promote THINKING.
Thinking & Planning. What if - scenarios.

Well, I would hope they touched on some common causes of radio failure and how to troubleshoot the problem, rather than strictly deal with fantasy scenarios....

OK, then the correct "real world" answer is;




Whatever your armed F-16 escort tells you to do....

 

[labbats]

Besides a stuck mic, in which you could contact departure anyway and inform them of your ideas, how are you going to lose your radios and not your navigation?

Is your radio stack going to be the only thing to go down the tubes? It's all or nothing IMO. Just losing your radios, and keeping your VORs, NDB, GPS, etc. would be about as likely as going coast to coast IMC.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Short awnser: wires break and equipment goes bad. I have lost transmit capibility several times, the infamous broken ptt button and bad wires in the pilot microphone wiring.

The ADF/GPS should be on a different antenna from the other radios. Sometimes the antenna comes loose and thus you lose something but not anything else. Most aircraft even have different antennas for radio 1 or 2.

 

[Pirate at Forty]

Find a place to land

The only real lost comm (voltage regulator failed open and fried every radio except the transponder) I had was climbing through a 3-4000 ft layer heading south out of Cleveland in a Baron. About the time a passenger said he saw a barn through the clouds, the hand held GPS figured out where we were and we circled down and landed at the nearest airport. I called FSS and told them what had happened and they promised to call Cleveland approach. About 5 minutes later the FBO phone rang and it was Cleveland wanting to know if I had landed there. They had followed the transponder (squawking 7600) to the aiport just outside of Cleveland. I heard nothing further and still believe that I did the right thing. BTW, it would have been an after dark arrival if I had continued to my destination.

 

[need2AV8]

Excellent feedback! Thanks!

As far as the details of the given scenario, for all intensive purposes, solid IMC with 500' ceilings at all airports along the way. The question seemed to have 2 purposes: 1) to cause thinking 2) ultimately, the check airman wanted the student to see that "common sense" would outweigh the FAR's. In other words, would you really continue with lost comm's for all those hours when you could just return?

Of course, in the REAL WORLD, 99.99 % chance you'll hit VMC sometime sooner than later on a flight of that distance (while adhering to FAR's). Find an airport in VMC and land. You've satisfied the FAR's by proceeding to VMC and used the sound judgement outlined in the AIM. If we add more details to the scenario, of course we might find the need to exercise emergency authority.

Catyaak and Nosehair - although everyone's responses were helpful, I found your replies to be most beneficial. Thanks again.

Matt - in regard to your avatar - "I be hipotized"

 

[Denizen]

I hope

I hope it was to inspire critical thinking, but I have run across check airmen that make up scenarios like the one given and when you finally come up with an answer they always seem to say, "No do it my way, that is the most reasonable way, use common sense". or some variation....

Kinda like a game of "stump the chump" or " I know more than you"

Kinda irks me some.

I guess it goes with being a CAirman, but I prefer real world questions not some sort of excercise in the absurd.

However, what do I know...

 

[need2AV8]

Kinda like a game of "stump the chump" or " I know more than you"

Kinda irks me some.

Agreed! Anytime you hear someone trying to "outsmart" the FAR's by essentially saying my answer is better than the FAA's answer, I see RED FLAGs all over it.

 

[huncowboy]

While searching for "IFR lost comm" in google this thread comes up first LOL.

I am reading everything here and what else I can get my hands on for my coming II ride. While I am reading this, another lost comm thread comes to my mind where the point was weather one could enter a class D in loss comm and it seemed the answer was no, since you can't establish 2-way comm.

So what if you fly this lost comm scenario and you fly over a class D or C, or even B and you and the airport is in VMC. Would you land? I mean now you are in VMC so you should proceed VMC and land, but on the other hand you can't establish two way radio communication with that class C or D, and you definitely don't have the clearance to enter class B. Can we only go into an uncontrolled field? How about a VFR flight? Of course for you big guys it is obvious you won't land on the small class D anyways, but what about the small guys? You are always a small guy when you get these questions.

I know that there is always a smaller airpot around yada yada but this is a theoretical question.

Thanks a lot for any replies on the above.

 

[JetBlast2000]

question .... what do you do in VMC conditions in Class A airspace, according to the rules ? (not the 'best' judgement call, but what the rules say ?)

Assuming you broke out in Class A... That is the only time you could go VFR. Up until that point you were on an IFR clearance. Now your VMC looking for a suitable airport. If that was the case, I would stay IFR until I could descend VMC to a suitable airport.

 

[Bandit60]

This is just a reminder from a check ride i took with a lost comm.....although we got the comm back after about 20min and were able to complete the flight, we made the best move possible by immediatly looking at the chart and finding the mea on the airway we were assigned, and climbed to that altitude. In this situation we would have crashed if we did not do this because our last assigned altitude was too low for the airway.

After completing this sim check ride the examiner told me that at that time we were the only crew in 3years that he had been giving this scenorio and to do the right thing.

Its such a simple thing to get all wraped up in the comm problem and forget to fly the airplane.

Good luck to everyone and fly safely

 

[LAZYB]

Uh, where is this?

Are we talking North/South Dakota, or upper Maine? I don't think I've had a "clearance limit" - short of destination - since training some 20+ years ago. 99% of the time you're cleared to the airport - not a VOR, fix, or waypoint.

Usually, if your in a busy airspace, they won't give you your clearence to the final destination anyhow, but only to a point outside either the departure airport or outside the destination, known as your "clearence limit". <- and thats what the FARs talk about.

NORDO

 

[mattpilot]

I've personally never gotten one, since all my IFR XC where late at night. Even when going to DAL they gave me clearence all the way.


One of the instructors here, however, said that when he went down to DAL during the afternoon (busiest time), he only got cleared to the MLC VOR (not even half way there), had to hold there for 30 min, then got clearence to continue to DAL.

He said it was quite common to get something like that if you fly non-scheduled GA operations at busy times of the day.

 

[minitour]

...While I am reading this, another lost comm thread comes to my mind where the point was weather one could enter a class D in loss comm and it seemed the answer was no, since you can't establish 2-way comm.

So what if you fly this lost comm scenario and you fly over a class D or C, or even B and you and the airport is in VMC. Would you land?...
Thanks a lot for any replies on the above.

I just took my pvt checkride about a week and a half ago and the DE actually brought up this question on the oral...weird...he actually added night flight as part of the variables

I told him that although the regs said "no" because I couldn't obtain the 2 way comms or the clearance for the B, if I was in already B, I'd land at a suitable airport...if I was NOT in the B already, I'd stay out and find a suitable airport unless IMC conditions behind me prevented me from doing such...

...as far as C and D airspace, I said if that was my nearest place, that's where I'm going...

...my reasoning was that squawking 7600 ATC can vector traffic around me because they can talk to them but not me...if I go uncontrolled, 1) how do I turn on the lights? 2) How do I know who's out there?

now I know lots of people fly into and out of uncontrolled airports all the time without radios and its not "really" an "emergency", but in this situation my answer was to declare an emergency and put it on the ground...

...he agreed, so as far as I'm concerned, that's the FAA's representative's answer...

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Lets examine one crucial element here.


91.185 was written when there it was mostly non radar.

So, your gonna fly from LAX - BOS under 91.185 rules, your legal but your a pain in the butt!!!

We can see you, we can see your 7600 xpdr code. We will clear the airspace and you can go shoot the approach.

91.185 was written during non radar when they couldnt see you. Now we can!

 

[huncowboy]

Lets examine one crucial element here.

91.185 was written when there it was mostly non radar.



So, your gonna fly from LAX - BOS under 91.185 rules, your legal but your a pain in the butt!!!



We can see you, we can see your 7600 xpdr code. We will clear the airspace and you can go shoot the approach.



91.185 was written during non radar when they couldnt see you. Now we can!

I think most people try to cover their rear and think like that (especially after all the pain and $ it took to train, then to get a job... if they still have a job):

following the regs to the letter = no violation

being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. You could get a violation just for the mere fact of the deviation. Is anyone going to report you for that? May be not because they are all happy that you were not a pain in the rear. But the decision is not yours anymore.

IMO the pain is not you (the pilot), but the FARs. But I guess what do I know anyways...

At the moment I still can't make up my mind weather "as close as possible to the ETA" means to hold... I guess it does, since it is "possible" to get closer to your ETA if you hold, in case you are early. Why couldn't they just write "hold" instead.

I was given the example that ATC might have not informed you about anything that goes on at the destination airport before your ETA, since it is irrelevant for you. Had you filed an earlier ETA they would have told you to hold if for any reason the airport or runway is unusable at that time… but now you are early and you start your approach before your ETA. I know the example sounds like a sci-fi but so do 90% of the comm scenarios.

 

[JAFI]

huncowboy said:

"being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- You may want to read 91.3 (b) again ----


JAFI


91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

 

[JediNein]

• Handheld transceiver: $80.00 (ebay)
• Cell Phone (free) + rate plan: $29.99
• Being cleared direct to a suitable airport by ATC after total comm failure:

Priceless.


​

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[huncowboy]

huncowboy said:

"being practical and deviating = a slight chance for violation. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- You may want to read 91.3 (b) again ----


JAFI


91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

I am not sure if me, flying in my 172, with enough fuel, with ceilings at 800' is always going to amount to an emergency just because I have lost radio. I can see when throwing some additional stuff into the scenario how it could become one, but definitely not always.

I guess there are these "well defined" (sarcasm) rules so that a radio failure does not necessarily become an emergency. I will rather go by them and not try to defend myself with 91.3 later on. In general I would rather try to avoid getting into a position where I have to defend myself.

BTW good luck declearing an emergency to yourself while an F16 is behind you trying to figure out what you are up to.