IFR for the VFR guys

[minitour]

If you accept an instrument clearance, either knowingly or unknowingly, and you're not instrument rated and current... BAM, you're busted.

Lead Sled

Right...so is an approach clearance an instrument clearance?

I still vote no...but compelling arguments both ways...

-mini

 

[JediNein]

Okkkaayyy.... near and dear to me, just had a chat with ATC about the following after asking for a PRACTICE VFR approach:

"Aircraft XXX, 4 miles from XXXXX, turn right heading 160, maintain VFR until established, cleared for the XXX ILS approach."

Is it IFR? Is it VFR?

Per those guys, they're military, they have to treat all practice approaches as IFR aircraft. The clearance was IFR due to the "maintain VFR until established" phrase.

Per the FAA controllers, there was no clearance limit, it's a practice approach in VFR conditions.

Later on that same flight, the military controller issued a clearance limit, heading, altitude, freq., and squawk when we really needed a IFR approach in IMC to get back home.

The FAA and Military have adjoining sectors. This can be quite fun.

Sooo.... Was it IFR? Was it VFR? What do you say at the NTSB hearing?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Lead Sled]

Like I said...

If there's ANY ambiguity as to your status make sure you verify it with ATC. If you need an IFR clearance to conduct the approach simply tell them. If you need to remain VFR, make sure they know that as well. That way, you'll have the "tapes" on your side if there's ever any question.

I think some of you guys are expecting this type of stuff to be "cut and dryed", it's not. It's called working the system. A lot of it comes down to the controller's perceptions. Like I said, if there is any ambiguity, get it cleared up - just like any other item on an instrument clearance.

Lead Sled

 

[philo beddoe]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?

One more problem is that a pilot was once violated for flying approaches on a local IFR clearance with no alternate on file, since weather conditions required one.

ATC might think I'm IFR, but that does not make it so.

 

[Lead Sled]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?

If you ask for an approach and you accept vectors, altitude assignments, etc. I think that it's reasonable for a controller to assume that you're IFR at that point. But hey, that's just me.

"Aircraft XXX, 4 miles from XXXXX, turn right heading 160, maintain VFR until established, cleared for the XXX ILS approach."

That sure sounds like you've accepted an IFR clearance to me - after you've established yourself on the approach.

Lead Sled

 

[minitour]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?
...
ATC might think I'm IFR, but that does not make it so.

Good point here...if you're not requesting an IFR clearance...you're just requesting to fly the approach in controlled airspace under VFR...how can they force you to be IFR?

As for ATC thinking you're IFR...does it go back to the whole PIC thing where its up to you...I don't think the feds would agree with that...if you got ramp checked and your ticket said PPASEL and no instrument rating...I'm thinking if ATC told them you were IFR you'd be screwed...

So is the only way to be safe then, to phrase it like: "XYZ Approach, Cessna 12345, request full VOR-A Approach, QWE airport, will remain VFR" ???

If you just requested the approach and they cleared you...geez...what a can of worms...

hmm...

any other ATC guys wanna check in?

-mini

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Look, the only times you will be officially IFR is when you either file IFR or request IFR. Asking for vectors for a practice approach is not requesting IFR.

Requesting IFR without a filed plan is called getting a "pop-up" IFR clearance. Sometimes controllers will do this for you, sometimes they say call flight service. If ATC does this for you they are likely to ask for a bit of information from you, including verifying that you and your airplane are IFR equiped and qualified. Either way it is a completely different thing than getting ATC vectors to an approach.

The only thing I have to add is this: next time you have any doubt about your status (VFR vs IFR) query the controller and clear up any misunderstandings as necessary.

 

[igneousy2]

Look, the only times you will be officially IFR is when you either file IFR or request IFR. Asking for vectors for a practice approach is not requesting IFR.

Requesting IFR without a filed plan is called getting a "pop-up" IFR clearance. Sometimes controllers will do this for you, sometimes they say call flight service. If ATC does this for you they are likely to ask for a bit of information from you, including verifying that you and your airplane are IFR equiped and qualified. Either way it is a completely different thing than getting ATC vectors to an approach.

The only thing I have to add is this: next time you have any doubt about your status (VFR vs IFR) query the controller and clear up any misunderstandings as necessary.

The original post stated they REQUESTED the ILS, didn't say they asked for a practice approach.

If I requested an ILS and I got an ILS I would expect to be IFR. Yes, many controllers are sloppy about this but I still believe that you are IFR unless it is made clear that you are not.

There is one controller that used to be at HNL (Class B) that as a matter of habbit use to say "NXXX turn right 180...maintain VFR", "cleared into the class B, follow such and such procedure... maintain VFR"

Some people say to clear it up if their is any ambiguity, in my mind there is no ambiguity when I request an ILS, I expect to be IFR.

I belive that my expectations are in line with many pilots out there...Lazy controllers take warning.

Later

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Oh I don't think its the controllers who need warning!

Let me ask you something. Have you ever requested an IFR clearance while flying VFR? Because when you do this ATC is very explicit about when the IFR clearance becomes effective.

If you merely request an ILS without clarifying whether its a practice approach or you need an IFR clearance it is not the controller who is being lazy and unclear.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Straight from an ATC guy.

If you want approved IFR separation from other aircraft, and backup terrain warning via MSAW, always make plain to the controller you are requesting a local IFR clearance.

 

[minitour]

The original post stated they REQUESTED the ILS, didn't say they asked for a practice approach.

If I requested an ILS and I got an ILS I would expect to be IFR. Yes, many controllers are sloppy about this but I still believe that you are IFR unless it is made clear that you are not.

There is one controller that used to be at HNL (Class B) that as a matter of habbit use to say "NXXX turn right 180...maintain VFR", "cleared into the class B, follow such and such procedure... maintain VFR"

Some people say to clear it up if their is any ambiguity, in my mind there is no ambiguity when I request an ILS, I expect to be IFR.

I belive that my expectations are in line with many pilots out there...Lazy controllers take warning.

Later

Playin' Devil's Advocate again here, but:

Using the same thoughts...if you requested a visual and got it...would you be VFR now?

-mini

 

[philo beddoe]

A visual approach is an IFR clearance.

Realize you're just making a point, but requesting and/or being assigned a visual does not change your IFR status.

You still have to cancel IFR after you land from a visual at an uncontrolled field, right? If you were VFR, you would not have to.

Hence, you are still IFR.

 

[philo beddoe]

When I say hi to a girl, I expect to get a hummer.

That's pretty cocky, man. "when I request an ILS" yada.

If'n you don't ask for IFR, you isn't IFR.

 

[minitour]

A visual approach is an IFR clearance.

Realize you're just making a point, but requesting and/or being assigned a visual does not change your IFR status.

You still have to cancel IFR after you land from a visual at an uncontrolled field, right? If you were VFR, you would not have to.

Hence, you are still IFR.

I'm gonna do it again:

So if you shoot the ILS at a pilot controlled field do you cancel IFR? You didn't file a flight plan according to the "required information" anyway...

I dunno...this seems like the issue could go either way...am I looking in the wrong section of the regs or is this just a common sense thing like....common sense tells you to verify VFR if you have a question...stuff like that...

I dunno...maybe I'm thinking WAY WAY WAY too far into this...

-mini

PS
Again, just wanna clarify that I'm not tryin to be a dousche bag...just trying to cover all of my bases before I go bust a reg somewhere with a student on board...

 

[Crizz]

One more problem is that a pilot was once violated for flying approaches on a local IFR clearance with no alternate on file, since weather conditions required one.

This is a very good example, and something people may rarely think of. If the stars were in alignment, I could definately see myself being put in these shoes. Thanks!



Good discussion otherwise, BTW.