IFR for the VFR guys

[philo beddoe]

Okay, then let's say that Guy B would make a great (dare I say typical) DO for a real $hitbag 135 operator.

I was thinking quality 121 operator.

It always amazes me how these huge assumptions by pilots often go unquestioned for years.

Why, just the other day some idiot was trying to tell me that pitch controlled airspeed. Time for a drug test, I say.

 

[igneousy2]

The only thing people have done here is express their opinions, but yet i'm not swayed either way. I can see the safer play bet is to assume A, but I don't see any proof in the regs.


91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has—
(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

It could be said that A above would mean that an approach clearence would not make you legal for IFR because you don't have a flight plan, however, A would also seem to invalidate most pop-up IFR clearences. Furthermore 91.169 gives ATC the option of not requiring any of the information in a flight plan.

§ 91.169 IFR flight plan: Information required.

(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing an IFR flight plan must include in it the following information:

(1) Information required under §91.153 (a) (VFR flight-plan) of this part...and an alternate if required (my para-phrase)

From what I have read of the the plain text of the regulations right now I would have to conclude that under the circumstances listed in this post (instructor "requested vectors", instructor was "cleared for ILS 2"), would sufice as an "appropriate IFR clearence" unless the "maintain VFR" is attached.

I cannot find anywhere in the regulations that state pilots must have knowledge of local transponder code practices.

I cannot find anywhere in the regulations that state that a clearence for an instrument approach does not suffice as an instrument clearence.

If I ask for vectors to an airport and I am given "cleared for the ILS 2", I am IFR as far as I'm concerned, if you tell me enter right base runway 2, I am VFR.

I am not saying I am positive...but please prove me wrong (i.e. quote some federal document) and not just state your opinion.

thanks

P.S. Pitch does control airspeed...and so does power

 

[Lead Sled]

The only thing people have done here is express their opinions, but yet i'm not swayed either way. I can see the safer play bet is to assume A, but I don't see any proof in the regs...

I agree. Personally, I think the answer is "It depends". I've seen it both ways - where you ended up on an IFR clearance and also where you didn't. Controllers (and pilots) don't always do things by the "strict letter of the law".

My recommendation? If there's ANY ambiguity as to your status make sure you verify it with ATC. If you need an IFR clearance to conduct the approach simply tell them. If you need to remain VFR, make sure they know that as well. That way, you'll have the "tapes" on your side if there's ever any question.

Lead Sled

PS...

You pull back to go higher and pull back more to go down.

 

[minitour]

The only thing people have done here is express their opinions, but yet i'm not swayed either way. I can see the safer play bet is to assume A, but I don't see any proof in the regs.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but if it is an IFR clearance to conduct an instrument approach, then what about practice approaches where the Controller doesn't specify maintain VFR...

Does that mean the Private pilot buzzin along with his/her safety pilot decides to do an instrument approach and....bam....violated....you can't accept an IFR clearance because you're not Instrument rated....

True? Maybe I misunderstand that one...

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

If you accept an instrument clearance, either knowingly or unknowingly, and you're not instrument rated and current... BAM, you're busted.

Lead Sled

 

[minitour]

If you accept an instrument clearance, either knowingly or unknowingly, and you're not instrument rated and current... BAM, you're busted.

Lead Sled

Right...so is an approach clearance an instrument clearance?

I still vote no...but compelling arguments both ways...

-mini

 

[JediNein]

Okkkaayyy.... near and dear to me, just had a chat with ATC about the following after asking for a PRACTICE VFR approach:

"Aircraft XXX, 4 miles from XXXXX, turn right heading 160, maintain VFR until established, cleared for the XXX ILS approach."

Is it IFR? Is it VFR?

Per those guys, they're military, they have to treat all practice approaches as IFR aircraft. The clearance was IFR due to the "maintain VFR until established" phrase.

Per the FAA controllers, there was no clearance limit, it's a practice approach in VFR conditions.

Later on that same flight, the military controller issued a clearance limit, heading, altitude, freq., and squawk when we really needed a IFR approach in IMC to get back home.

The FAA and Military have adjoining sectors. This can be quite fun.

Sooo.... Was it IFR? Was it VFR? What do you say at the NTSB hearing?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Lead Sled]

Like I said...

If there's ANY ambiguity as to your status make sure you verify it with ATC. If you need an IFR clearance to conduct the approach simply tell them. If you need to remain VFR, make sure they know that as well. That way, you'll have the "tapes" on your side if there's ever any question.

I think some of you guys are expecting this type of stuff to be "cut and dryed", it's not. It's called working the system. A lot of it comes down to the controller's perceptions. Like I said, if there is any ambiguity, get it cleared up - just like any other item on an instrument clearance.

Lead Sled

 

[philo beddoe]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?

One more problem is that a pilot was once violated for flying approaches on a local IFR clearance with no alternate on file, since weather conditions required one.

ATC might think I'm IFR, but that does not make it so.

 

[Lead Sled]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?

If you ask for an approach and you accept vectors, altitude assignments, etc. I think that it's reasonable for a controller to assume that you're IFR at that point. But hey, that's just me.

"Aircraft XXX, 4 miles from XXXXX, turn right heading 160, maintain VFR until established, cleared for the XXX ILS approach."

That sure sounds like you've accepted an IFR clearance to me - after you've established yourself on the approach.

Lead Sled