IFR for the VFR guys

[minitour]

If I have not filed an IFR clearance or requested one, how can ATC "force" me to be IFR?
...
ATC might think I'm IFR, but that does not make it so.

Good point here...if you're not requesting an IFR clearance...you're just requesting to fly the approach in controlled airspace under VFR...how can they force you to be IFR?

As for ATC thinking you're IFR...does it go back to the whole PIC thing where its up to you...I don't think the feds would agree with that...if you got ramp checked and your ticket said PPASEL and no instrument rating...I'm thinking if ATC told them you were IFR you'd be screwed...

So is the only way to be safe then, to phrase it like: "XYZ Approach, Cessna 12345, request full VOR-A Approach, QWE airport, will remain VFR" ???

If you just requested the approach and they cleared you...geez...what a can of worms...

hmm...

any other ATC guys wanna check in?

-mini

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Look, the only times you will be officially IFR is when you either file IFR or request IFR. Asking for vectors for a practice approach is not requesting IFR.

Requesting IFR without a filed plan is called getting a "pop-up" IFR clearance. Sometimes controllers will do this for you, sometimes they say call flight service. If ATC does this for you they are likely to ask for a bit of information from you, including verifying that you and your airplane are IFR equiped and qualified. Either way it is a completely different thing than getting ATC vectors to an approach.

The only thing I have to add is this: next time you have any doubt about your status (VFR vs IFR) query the controller and clear up any misunderstandings as necessary.

 

[igneousy2]

Look, the only times you will be officially IFR is when you either file IFR or request IFR. Asking for vectors for a practice approach is not requesting IFR.

Requesting IFR without a filed plan is called getting a "pop-up" IFR clearance. Sometimes controllers will do this for you, sometimes they say call flight service. If ATC does this for you they are likely to ask for a bit of information from you, including verifying that you and your airplane are IFR equiped and qualified. Either way it is a completely different thing than getting ATC vectors to an approach.

The only thing I have to add is this: next time you have any doubt about your status (VFR vs IFR) query the controller and clear up any misunderstandings as necessary.

The original post stated they REQUESTED the ILS, didn't say they asked for a practice approach.

If I requested an ILS and I got an ILS I would expect to be IFR. Yes, many controllers are sloppy about this but I still believe that you are IFR unless it is made clear that you are not.

There is one controller that used to be at HNL (Class B) that as a matter of habbit use to say "NXXX turn right 180...maintain VFR", "cleared into the class B, follow such and such procedure... maintain VFR"

Some people say to clear it up if their is any ambiguity, in my mind there is no ambiguity when I request an ILS, I expect to be IFR.

I belive that my expectations are in line with many pilots out there...Lazy controllers take warning.

Later

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Oh I don't think its the controllers who need warning!

Let me ask you something. Have you ever requested an IFR clearance while flying VFR? Because when you do this ATC is very explicit about when the IFR clearance becomes effective.

If you merely request an ILS without clarifying whether its a practice approach or you need an IFR clearance it is not the controller who is being lazy and unclear.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Straight from an ATC guy.

If you want approved IFR separation from other aircraft, and backup terrain warning via MSAW, always make plain to the controller you are requesting a local IFR clearance.

 

[minitour]

The original post stated they REQUESTED the ILS, didn't say they asked for a practice approach.

If I requested an ILS and I got an ILS I would expect to be IFR. Yes, many controllers are sloppy about this but I still believe that you are IFR unless it is made clear that you are not.

There is one controller that used to be at HNL (Class B) that as a matter of habbit use to say "NXXX turn right 180...maintain VFR", "cleared into the class B, follow such and such procedure... maintain VFR"

Some people say to clear it up if their is any ambiguity, in my mind there is no ambiguity when I request an ILS, I expect to be IFR.

I belive that my expectations are in line with many pilots out there...Lazy controllers take warning.

Later

Playin' Devil's Advocate again here, but:

Using the same thoughts...if you requested a visual and got it...would you be VFR now?

-mini

 

[philo beddoe]

A visual approach is an IFR clearance.

Realize you're just making a point, but requesting and/or being assigned a visual does not change your IFR status.

You still have to cancel IFR after you land from a visual at an uncontrolled field, right? If you were VFR, you would not have to.

Hence, you are still IFR.

 

[philo beddoe]

When I say hi to a girl, I expect to get a hummer.

That's pretty cocky, man. "when I request an ILS" yada.

If'n you don't ask for IFR, you isn't IFR.

 

[minitour]

A visual approach is an IFR clearance.

Realize you're just making a point, but requesting and/or being assigned a visual does not change your IFR status.

You still have to cancel IFR after you land from a visual at an uncontrolled field, right? If you were VFR, you would not have to.

Hence, you are still IFR.

I'm gonna do it again:

So if you shoot the ILS at a pilot controlled field do you cancel IFR? You didn't file a flight plan according to the "required information" anyway...

I dunno...this seems like the issue could go either way...am I looking in the wrong section of the regs or is this just a common sense thing like....common sense tells you to verify VFR if you have a question...stuff like that...

I dunno...maybe I'm thinking WAY WAY WAY too far into this...

-mini

PS
Again, just wanna clarify that I'm not tryin to be a dousche bag...just trying to cover all of my bases before I go bust a reg somewhere with a student on board...

 

[Crizz]

One more problem is that a pilot was once violated for flying approaches on a local IFR clearance with no alternate on file, since weather conditions required one.

This is a very good example, and something people may rarely think of. If the stars were in alignment, I could definately see myself being put in these shoes. Thanks!



Good discussion otherwise, BTW.

 

[Lead Sled]

I'm gonna do it again:

So if you shoot the ILS at a pilot controlled field do you cancel IFR? You didn't file a flight plan according to the "required information" anyway...

I dunno...maybe I'm thinking WAY WAY WAY too far into this...

You never have to "cancel" IFR at a controlled field - the tower does it for you after you've landed. In the same way you never have to "open" an IFR flight plan when you depart from an airport with an operating control tower. I've been doing this for a long time and the only way you're going to avoid ambiguity on issues such as this (yes, there are others too) is to clarify with the controllers what you need to do to stay legal. Period. If you can't legally accept an IFR clearance, then I would make dang sure that you use wording such as "Request a VFR practice approach" or "Request a XXX approach in VFR conditions" or words to that effect. Out west, there have been plenty of times when we've departed VFR to a destination 20 minutes (say, 125 to 150 miles) away. It was always a simple matter when we contacted the tower to simply let them know that we would need the approach to get in that morning and ask for either the ILS or GPS approach. It was no big deal, they didn't ask for any additional information - they simply asked us to climb or descend to an appropriate IFR altitude and started with the vectors.

As to your other question...

Yeh, I think that you might be getting a head of yourself. Relax and enjoy the process. Concentrate on what's being presented at the time. It will all come together in time.

Lead Sled

 

[Sctt@NJA]

What is a pilot controlled field?

 

[minitour]

What is a pilot controlled field?

Pilot Controlled = Uncontrolled

I never tell anyone if I'm flying into an uncontrolled field...always call it Pilot Controlled...I made that mistake once and the look on their face was...fear...shock...

I just don't want it to add to the whole "GA unsafe against terrorism" stuff out there. At least if they hear pilot controlled they think someone controlls the airport...

Gotta remember...I was in sales...so I try to make the situation come out how I want it...

-mini

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I hear you. I believe "non-towered" field is the pc non-fear inducing term

 

[Lead Sled]

Pilot Controlled = Uncontrolled

Oops, I misread your post. Yes, you do have to cancel (let them know you're on the ground safely) after an IFR approach at a "pilot-controlled" airport.

Lead Sled

 

[philo beddoe]

Perhaps we could refer to them as "Operationally unencumbered fields"?


Or tell the passengers that the control tower was removed because too many pilots were crashing into it.

 

[minitour]

Perhaps we could refer to them as "Operationally unencumbered fields"?


Or tell the passengers that the control tower was removed because too many pilots were crashing into it.

LMAO hah...thats great stuff...

Not sure if that serves the purpose though...the whole crash thing...