If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[Browntothebone]

Why all the negative vibes Dan? Just because your life sux doesn't mean mine will. Are you ever going to tell us the true reason that you were fired from Astar? As smart on issues as you think you are, you should go to work for the DOT or something. Someone with your insight could be awarded a medal.

 

[Browntothebone]

I don't think, I KNOW, why UPS started an airline in '88...they were FORCED to by the FAA. Ask any of your old hands what and who brought them out of the Evergreen, Interstate, Orion, Rosenbalm, et al doldrums and into the UPS fold. Thank T. Allen McArtor for your brown ID badge, not UPS' "need for control"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Allen_McArtor

In the early '80's, Flying Tigers biggest commercial account was UPS. At that time, there was little concern by UPS over "control" other than to make sure the planes left and arrived on time. Had they not, I'm sure UPS would have sought another contractor.

So tell us Dan, when is UPS going to dissolve the airline and go back to contractors?

 

[AV80R]

Why do you think UPS started an airline in 88 instead of continuing to use the contractors? It is about control not money. Think of the whipsaw they could have had with the 4 different carriers if they wanted to save money.

I thought the FAA made them switch to an own airline - said they're too big to be using contractors...

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

UPS could very well use a DHL contractor aircraft to fly it's volume in parts of the world where UPS currently uses airline belly space or common carriage. UPS will continue to fly what it does internationally and will continue to expand the airline internationally. I know that you can't stand to hear good news about another airline Dan, but it's the truth. UPS browntail jets flown around the world by IPA crews aren't going to go away no matter how hard you try and rationalize it.

I'm not wishing any ill will upon the pilots of UPS. You guys beat us, fair and square. As for why that happened, there's enough blame to go around the DHL camp 3 times over. Nobody is blameless on our side.

But I do have a question for you, BTB. DHL was clearly "on the ropes" in the US. Both their market share and service ratings were slipping precipitously, losses were mounting, investors were calling for a pullout. Had UPS done nothing, you guys would have stood (along with FedEx) to carve up what was left of DHL's business in the US.

Then you guys came to their rescue. You guys breathed new life into their half-a$$ed operation. Rather than deal an easy knockout blow, your management kept your biggest international competitor alive in the U.S.

Why do you think they did that, and where is your outrage that they did so?

 

[AV80R]

You had better quit now and get in front of all the other UPS pilots that will be out of work.

I thought I asked a legitimate question, not sure why you dismissed it with your comment...

My point is - this is something new that UPS has never done before... I hope you're correct but I take nothing for granted. The person I listened to last time who believed ‘his’ airline was invincible and thought he knew all the answers is now furloughed - from United.

I know we are very different from United or any pax airline for that matter. However, money talks and 'control' is something UPS is keen on because in the past control generated profits. IF we were to start losing money in the future they'll look at any and all options available to them. That's why I worry that the DHL deal has opened a Pandora’s box...
Possible small short term gains (for us) but potentially huge long term losses...

Again, I hope you're right and that I'm wrong however neither you nor I have any say on how this will play out in the future...

 

[shooter]

Why all the negative vibes Dan? Just because your life sux doesn't mean mine will. Are you ever going to tell us the true reason that you were fired from Astar? As smart on issues as you think you are, you should go to work for the DOT or something. Someone with your insight could be awarded a medal.

Ouch, all of this time I only thought you were a POS. Leave it to you to speak up and remove all doubt. I don't think his or anyones past is any of your d@#^ business. Could it be you have skeletons in your own closet fueling your insecurities or were you just born of rectum? Either way, you're still a POS.

 

[Browntothebone]

I'm not wishing any ill will upon the pilots of UPS. You guys beat us, fair and square. As for why that happened, there's enough blame to go around the DHL camp 3 times over. Nobody is blameless on our side.

But I do have a question for you, BTB. DHL was clearly "on the ropes" in the US. Both their market share and service ratings were slipping precipitously, losses were mounting, investors were calling for a pullout. Had UPS done nothing, you guys would have stood (along with FedEx) to carve up what was left of DHL's business in the US.

Then you guys came to their rescue. You guys breathed new life into their half-a$$ed operation. Rather than deal an easy knockout blow, your management kept your biggest international competitor alive in the U.S.

Why do you think they did that, and where is your outrage that they did so?

They did it because for getting $1 BILLION a year from DHL, UPS has to do practically NOTHING. It's almost like getting free money from your competitor. Everyone, including UPS management knows that DHL's air arm in the US wasn't the big problem they had, it's the crappy IC delivery drivers. Guess what, DHL will still have the crappy delivery drivers. UPS will not really "help" out the competition so much as to just take money from them for basically doing nothing.
UPS has unused capacity domestically and DHL will fill that up. DHL will also pay for the worldport expansion, the new 767 and 747-400 purchases. DHL will still continue to lose business in the US because it's delivery drivers suk.

 

[AV80R]

Actually the reason ups started thier own airline because they were under pressure from faa not because they wanted control. It was actually cheaper for them with contractors then ipa.

That's exactly my point. UPS Airlines were formed simply because the FAA got fed up with having to oversee so many separate airlines all feeding one company - NOT because UPS wanted control.

I never liked "contract" flying because even though they usually bring fast gains in the short term (a la Fedex hiring when they got the postal contract) it is still a contract which can be voided at anytime. I'd rather have a slow but steady growth, and most importantly growth on our own...

Just look at Ryan (at least I think it was Ryan?) when they lost their postal contract to Fedex. They went from 2 year upgrades to furloughing their pilots... I don't see how this DHL deal is any different? It is still a contract; sort of like Air Wisconsin flying for United or Skywest feeding Delta...

IF UPS and DHL can find a way to move the packages for half the price they WILL do that... We are building this huge sorting facility in Shanghai but so is DHL, how much do you wanna bet that’s their next “cooperation” arena?

Also, for those who think UPS likes control - my buddy who flies for DHL in Germany tells me that we ain't seen nothing yet - DHL likes to control but not by forcing their pilots to wear yellow vests or by being nitpicky about 1-2 minutes push delays even though the flight actually arrived 1/2 hour early… Instead they control through constant fear of loosing your job by always negotiating with another airline "just in case."

DHL might be losing money in the US but they’re still a powerhouse in Europe and elsewhere… I for one still hope that this deal will fall through because I think it'll cost us in the long run...

 

[Browntothebone]

That's exactly my point. UPS Airlines were formed simply because the FAA got fed up with having to oversee so many separate airlines all feeding one company - NOT because UPS wanted control.

I never liked "contract" flying because even though they usually bring fast gains in the short term (a la Fedex hiring when they got the postal contract) it is still a contract which can be voided at anytime. I'd rather have a slow but steady growth, and most importantly growth on our own...

Just look at Ryan (at least I think it was Ryan?) when they lost their postal contract to Fedex. They went from 2 year upgrades to furloughing their pilots... I don't see how this DHL deal is any different? It is still a contract; sort of like Air Wisconsin flying for United or Skywest feeding Delta...

IF UPS and DHL can find a way to move the packages for half the price they WILL do that... We are building this huge sorting facility in Shanghai but so is DHL, how much do you wanna bet that’s their next “cooperation” arena?

Also, for those who think UPS likes control - my buddy who flies for DHL in Germany tells me that we ain't seen nothing yet - DHL likes to control but not by forcing their pilots to wear yellow vests or by being nitpicky about 1-2 minutes push delays even though the flight actually arrived 1/2 hour early… Instead they control through constant fear of loosing your job by always negotiating with another airline "just in case."

DHL might be losing money in the US but they’re still a powerhouse in Europe and elsewhere… I for one still hope that this deal will fall through because I think it'll cost us in the long run...

Boy are you naive about this industry. Everything UPS, FedEx and DHL carries is contract.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Either way, you're still a POS.

Hey Poodle Boy: it takes one to know one. How's life in the Dilbert cubical?

 

[shooter]

Hey Poodle Boy: it takes one to know one. How's life in the Dilbert cubical?

Naive bitter old man, tisk tisk tisk. Life is good, thanks for asking.

 

[AV8OR]

I thought I asked a legitimate question, not sure why you dismissed it with your comment...

My point is - this is something new that UPS has never done before... I hope you're correct but I take nothing for granted. The person I listened to last time who believed ‘his’ airline was invincible and thought he knew all the answers is now furloughed - from United.

I know we are very different from United or any pax airline for that matter. However, money talks and 'control' is something UPS is keen on because in the past control generated profits. IF we were to start losing money in the future they'll look at any and all options available to them. That's why I worry that the DHL deal has opened a Pandora’s box...
Possible small short term gains (for us) but potentially huge long term losses...

Again, I hope you're right and that I'm wrong however neither you nor I have any say on how this will play out in the future...

Smart thinking my man. I'll just add this little tidbit:
When I was a new hire at DHL Airways, FedEx and UPS were iniating one of their many attempts to shut us down, and I remember some of the new hires in my class kind of laughing a little arrogantly and saying something to the affect that DHL was so huge and powerful that they could/would steamroll any opposition by FedEx and UPS. And I remember thinking at the time, that if someone feels the need to "steamroll" their way, then there is a decent chance they wouldn't get their way based simply on the merits of their argument. My other thought was that while I was glad to be part of this "steamroller" crew, I knew that, folks who "steamroll"their way through obstacles, usually only care about one thing....getting their way, and that while we might be glad to be employed by a steamroller regarding FedEx and UPS, we'd better be careful of trusting that too much, less one day, when WE became the problem, DHL would push US off in front of the steamroller and pound US into tiny bits. We at AStar may not have realized it at the time, but, we asked to dance with the devil.....now we're payin the price. Hope the good folks at UPS don't meet the same fate.

 

[brownie]

Smart thinking my man. I'll just add this little tidbit:
When I was a new hire at DHL Airways, FedEx and UPS were iniating one of their many attempts to shut us down, and I remember some of the new hires in my class kind of laughing a little arrogantly and saying something to the affect that DHL was so huge and powerful that they could/would steamroll any opposition by FedEx and UPS. And I remember thinking at the time, that if someone feels the need to "steamroll" their way, then there is a decent chance they wouldn't get their way based simply on the merits of their argument. My other thought was that while I was glad to be part of this "steamroller" crew, I knew that, folks who "steamroll"their way through obstacles, usually only care about one thing....getting their way, and that while we might be glad to be employed by a steamroller regarding FedEx and UPS, we'd better be careful of trusting that too much, less one day, when WE became the problem, DHL would push US off in front of the steamroller and pound US into tiny bits. We at AStar may not have realized it at the time, but, we asked to dance with the devil.....now we're payin the price. Hope the good folks at UPS don't meet the same fate.

My friend, we have been dancing with devil and been dancing for 20 yrs since 1988.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Why all the negative vibes Dan? Just because your life sux doesn't mean mine will. Are you ever going to tell us the true reason that you were fired from Astar?

No, because I don't think anybody's personal matters have any place being discussed on an internet message board, especially by anonymous contributors, and especially while grievances are pending. I believe that those who do, for whatever reason, are doing so with the unintended consequence of showing their a$$ to the professional community and to the world-at-large. So I don't do it, period.

Besides, if we're going to air dirty laundry, let's start with the really good stuff. I'll just sit back with a bottle of Jack and some kiddie-porn, light up a big cigar (a Cuban cigar!) and start dry-firing my 9mm. Care to join me?

Why all the negative vibes Dan?

You know, I was about to ask you the same thing. For a guy who's supposedly "Brown to the bone" you sure seem awfully wrapped up in this DHL thing. If I were a UPS pilot posting to this topic, I'd probably just say "Sorry fellows about your loss...best wishes finding other jobs...there but for fortune go we all, etc etc." and go back to my own business. That's what most UPS pilots have been saying. But you...you seem to be getting some real yuks out of this thing. The the only guys I know who find pleasure in their fellow pilots misfortunes are a few Astar guys, and one can only guess at what demonic creatures crawled up their a$$es and laid eggs. At least they now have some reason to be pi$$y...what's yours?

Just because your life sux doesn't mean mine will

Something about the tone and content of your recent posts tells me that yours already does.

Are you sure you're "brown" to the bone?

Let's see...yellow+red=?????

 

[erichartmann]

I get it already, you are pissed at this pissed at that you wanted it to go this way and not that. Look around yourself next time you are at the hub and try to understand this is not about you but everyone you see.

Ahh!, but it IS all about me. It always has been. Once we meet my needs we'll think about yours for just a moment (and probably disregard them!)imp: