Icao Atpl

[h25b]

What's involved with obtaining an ICAO ATPL??? Just curious, thanks in advance.

 

[Dieterly]

1500 hrs, and an ATP checkride.

 

[blade230]

I must add to that. A basic FAA ATP and 1500 hours will not always suffice.

Per the ICAO, only 50% of SIC time can be credited towards the 1500. Here in the US, we don't do it that way.

Also, PIC credtiting towards the 250-500 depending on country, is rewarded differently also. Here in the US you can have two people in one airplane logging PIC. ie. instructor and commercial student. The ICAO does not respect this practice.

Cheers,

 

[slickmagneto]

Who is authorized and where?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I would also like to know more about this.

Who gives out ICAO licenses?

From reading the above, when I reach the hourly limits I can take a checkride somewhere and get it?

What is the "250-500".

I have seen a number of international jobs that look interesting, and that I would be qualified for in the future.

How much does getting this license cost?

Also, is this the one required in Canada (I think no, that they have yet another type of license that is good only in Canada?)

Thanks for any info!

Cliff
GRB

 

[blade230]

Transport Canada ATPL is ICAO recognized, as is the FAA, but T.C. awards hours the exact way the ICAO authorizes.

As for the 250-500, there are 1 or two countries, I believe, not sure, that require 500 PIC. Either way number one rule is you cannot have two people logging PIC in the aircraft at the same time, and only 50% SIC counts towards total time.

I found this out the hard way when I was becoming T.C rated, and I could not even hold a commercial with over 450 TT and 160 PIC FAA time. An inspector has to evaluate your logbook. You have to give it to them for a few weeks.

 

[B1900DFO]

As I understand it back in the day if you were a copilot you could log half your time in the right seat as PIC. Obviously that no longer applies in the US, but do you know if any other countries still accept a percentage of your right seat time as PIC?

 

[blade230]

Yes, 100 hours of the standard 250 PIC may be logged as PIC under supervision. This goes for both the JAA and Transport Canada.

 

[traveller]

I was checking into the same thing and found a good webiste at http://www.proifr.com/proifr/pro-ifr-faa-frame.htm . I emailed the owners a few times, they respond quickly.

If you already have the hours, you have to take several written exams and a checkride. Since I have been flying as FO, I am not current with PIC time (50 hours recently) so in addition to the ATPL ride, I would also need a ride to show instrument currency.

They offer weekend courses for passing the written exam. The good news, is if you have flown as an FE (50 hours in the past six month) you can get the ICAO license just for taking the transport canada medical, and letting someone exam your logbooks for awhile.

Good luck!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I'm getting more info, but am still not sure what to do.

I have my AMEL-ATP (US). Let's say I want to apply, for example, to Emirates-they require an ICAO ATPL.

Where do I go, what do I need to do, and how much will it cost?

Cliff
GRB

 

[blade230]

The FAA ATP is technically an ICAO ATPL, as long as you meet the experience criteria per the ICAO. Is your TT 1500? with only 50% SIC time counting towards that number. And do you have 250 true hours as PIC? actual PIC, as in sole manipulator of the controls with knowbody else logging PIC at the same time in the aircraft. If yes to these questions, you have an ICAO ATP(L).

Cheers,

 

[TailStall]

Right out of the A.I.P in Canada for an ICAO ATPL

Mimimum age:21
Medical Category: CAT 1
Knowledge: SAMARA 70% mim.(regulations)
SARON 70% mim. (weather)
Skill: Group 1 instument rating (multi uengine land unresricted)

Total time:1500 hrs (minimum 900 hrs in aeroplane)
PIC*: 250hrs
PIC cross country:100 hrs
PIC cross country-night: 25 hrs
Copilot cross country**: 200 hrs
IFR***: 75
Night: 100 hrs (minimum 30hrs in aeroplane)

* may include 100 hrs copilot under supervision(company approved program.)

**or additional 100 hrs aeroplane crosscountry PIC

***max 25 hrs in simulator and 35 hrs in helicopter

Yes you can only log half of you total time flying as a copilot towards your ATPL requirements.


Hope this helps alittle

 

[blade230]

You also need the INRAT in Canada for the ATPL, but this you would get as part of your instrument group 1 ticket. T.C. does not grant IFR tickets on the basis of a current one in another country. You must take the knowledge exam, and take the check ride.

 

[slickmagneto]

Say Again????

I'm not getting the real response I'm looking for.
I don't have a Canadian license to convert and i don't want to convert my US to Canadian.
Some of the adds that I have read want an ICAO or JAA license but MAY accept a FAA ATP.
So, with that said, back to my question.

Who is authorized to issue it, where do you go to get it, and how much does it cost????

 

[blade230]

I don't think you are understanding. There is no actual certificate that says ICAO on it. The ICAO is the FAA, JAA, T.C., CAA and so on agreeing on certain regulations. Your FAA ATP is an ICAO ATPL if you meet the above criteria. You cannot get an ICAO certificate. You cannot buy one. You can meet the requirements agreed upon in the ICAO, and hold (any country that is included in the ICAO) an ATP(L). The US FAA in part of the ICAO. If you have 1500 TT inclusive of only 50%SIC, and have 250 PIC, actuall PIC as defined above, then you DO hold an ICAO ATPL.

Cheers,

 

[slickmagneto]

Blade 230

I gotcha now!
Thanks.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I'm catching on, also.

I need some more info on the flight time requirements.

I have about 2300 TT.

About 600 is PIC, the rest is student or SIC, so that puts me at about 1450 total time.

About 1000 of my TT is helo, and most of my PIC is helo. I probably have about 70 fixed-wing PIC.

Are there Fixed-Wing time requirements?

Cliff
GRB

 

[countbat]

ATPCiff let me put it in a simplier way. Whem Emirates said they are looking for ICAO ATP license the meaning was: Any ATP from a country member of ICAO is good enough for them. So someone from Slovenia is as good candidate as someone from USA or Canada or Etc.
Maybe you are confused with the new European license called JAA ATPL !? That's a total different dish and a little more complicated to explain.

 

[Dieterly]

I explained it all in my first post. Of course then someone wanted to complicate it more, anyway, FAA ATP is the same thing as ICAO ATPL.

 

[blade230]

Dieterly, you are both right, and wrong. Yes the FAA ATP is recognized as ICAO, but you are forgetting, which is even included in the FAA regs regarding certification of airman, is that the FAA ATP can be issued in the US even though it does not meet the requirements per the ICAO. Specifically, other than the USA, only 50% SIC shall be credited towards TT. And also per the ICAO, any one aircraft cannot have two pilots logging PIC. In this country that rule does not apply.


Cheers,

 

[iaflyer]

I think that the posters question has been answered, but I though I'd add a link to ICAO's website, answering the question about ICAO Licenses.

ICAO Link

iaflyer

 

[Bumz_Rush]

You can hold a JAA and FAA Licence, and any other issuing state, and do not have to surrender anything. At one time I was holding an FAA ATP, a CAA ATPL, (replaced by a JAA ATP) and a Swiss ATPL. as wellas validations, for Ireland, Russia, and Bermuda. I am sure there are guys with many more licences and validations.

 

[80/20]

An ICAO ATPL is, as suggested in postings above, not a license issued by a specific state.
Two questions should be asked:
(1) What is an ICAO APTL?
(2) What might a foreign airline mean when they require an ICAO ATPL?

Countries that have signed the agreements to follow the Convention on International Civil Aviation may claim that their licenses are issued in accordance with ICAO standards. The ICAO standards for licensing are given in Annex 1 "Personnel Licensing" which is available for sale at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/sales.htm

ICAO require that each nation must publish their standards as a manual in a set format. This manual is called AIP (Aeronautical Information Publication). The FAA publishes AIP USA. This is just a reformatted version of the AIM with some additional information. One section of the AIP is called DIF (differences) and it lists any national deviations from the ICAO standards. This is where the problems starts for us (from the USA) because the FAA has a lot of differences from the ICAO standards. For starters the FAA calls it an ATP (Airline Transport Pilot Certificate) while ICAO and most other countries will call it ATPL (Airline Transport Pilot License). There are many other differences and the end result is that it is very time consuming to convert from FAA to many other countries. It is my experience that, at least in some cases, foreign airlines will not accept a FAA ATP when they require an ICAO ATPL. In other cases they will accept FAA certificates.

 

[boscenter]

If an employer specifically requires a JAA ATPL, "frozen," how does one go about converting FAA licenses as such? I've been told it's a difficult process, but I have been unable to find any details. Would this entail travelling to Europe, or could this be done in the U.S.?

 

[80/20]

___________________________
boscenter asked:
how does one go about converting FAA to JAA?
___________________________

Short answer:
You must take written tests and a check-ride. Alt least some of this may be done in the US, possible all of it, depending on the school. Schools like FlightSafety might possibly be able to do all of it in the US. (JAA frozen APTL = ATP written)


Long answer:
Unlike the FAA, the JAA will let you take the ATP written tests without having the required hours, and give a "frozen" ATPL. Some airlines will hire you with a JAA commercial and instrument rating (JAA-CPL/IR), and a frozen ATPL.

You can take a JAA license from scratch with groundschool, written tests, flight training and practical flight tests. A better option is to do a conversion where you will receive credits from previous flight time, training and certificates from other countries such as the USA. You do not have to give up your FAA certificates to get a JAA license. (Can have both.)

JAA makes the JARs (Joint Aviation Requirements) but each country have their own National European Authorities (NAAs), which runs independent national systems based on the JARs. A license given by any JAA memberstate have similar layout and are considered a JAA license.

A FAA pilot certificate can be converted to a JAA license. This is described in JAR-FCL-1 (The equivalence of FAR PART 61&141)

JAR-FCL states in part that: (Simplified with my personal explaining comments added):
The holder of an ATPL (such as an FAA ATP) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 may be exempted from the requirements to undergo approved training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations (written tests) and the skill test (checkride).

This means that you don’t have to follow the entire course; you "just" to take the tests.

The skill test for the instrument rating (or ATPL) is to be taken in any JAA Member State at the discretion of the European Authority that approves the training. A FTO (European flight school) providing approved training for the instrument rating (or ATPL) outside JAA Member States will need to make arrangements for the approved course to include acclimatisation flying in the JAA Member State of the approving Authority (NAA) [or in the airspace of any JAA Member State at the discretion of the approving Authority] prior to any student taking the skill test (checkride).

The part about taking the checkride in "JAA airspace" and the approval at the discretion is handled differently by various countries. As an example, the Swiss appears to have delegated a high level of approval to a program that I believe is conducted at FlightSafety in Florida. Suggest you contact them for specific details.

The hardest part is the written tests. Both United States and European pilots have comparable safety records and the end product remains essentially the same. But training philosophies differ significantly. Large differences exist in the JAA ATPL groundschool. JAA require at least 650 hours of ATP groundschool in classroom or distance learning followed by more than ten theoretical written test. Unlike the FAA, the JAA does not publish the written tests. You can not just study exam questions in a test prep book. You need to know the text books in detail. The ATPL syllabus can be compared to a university level program.

You can download JAR-FCL from the JAA website at:
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/42/20/422078/422078.pdf
this is a 1.73mb pdf file and the ATPL written tests are listed on pdf page 149 (Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.470 Theoretical knowledge examination subjects / sections and length of examinations – ATPL)
A more detailed explanation of the theoretical ATPL syllabus is found at:
http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl/jar-fcl_atpla_frame.html

A FAA-JAA harmonization committee are trying to simplify conversions but have not been able to agree yet. More information about this at:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regjaafaa.html

 

[boscenter]

Very informative... thanks!