I Wonder....

[gutshotdraw]

Au contraire, my fine feathered poker playing friend. We are in competition with charter all the time, as customer/owners are continually weighing the benefits of frac versus charter. Have you noticed what Clay Lacy has done to us in the last several years? I wish they would unionize.

And a number of those clients have come back to us because that d-bag couldn't help himself screwing some of those clients.

And the discussion was about Travel Management and the fact that they are the primary provider of supplemental lift to NetJets for sell-offs. The owner of TM sold his main business to Berkshire Hathaway a few years back. See the connection?

 

[doh]

Au contraire, my fine feathered poker playing friend. We are in competition with charter all the time, as customer/owners are continually weighing the benefits of frac versus charter. Have you noticed what Clay Lacy has done to us in the last several years? I wish they would unionize.

I don't know the answer to the price elasticity question, but I do know there is an end to how much you can pass on to the consumer. The question is how much you can push your pilots to increase the amount in your pocket. Unions, in the right circumstances, help define that push. TM is a poster child for pushing, and needs the definition.

 

[ghostrider64]

Since the lawsuit, I suspect you'll see those fellows rarely, if ever again....

 

[keebird]

TM's growth has been fueled, largely, by flying NetJets sell-off trips.

I'm a pro-union TMC pilot.
I just have to correct a common misunderstanding: In many threads here on FI, NetJets pilots seem to think that TMC's primary income comes from EJM scabbing. I fly on average one EJM trip a month. If TMC lost all EJM/NetJets business it would barely make a blip on TMC's bottom line.
You NetJetters are not as big and important as you think you are.

 

[keebird]

TM's growth has been fueled, largely, by flying NetJets sell-off trips.

I'm a pro-union TMC pilot.
NetJets pilots seem to think that TMC's primary income and growth comes from EJM scabbing. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I fly on average less than one EJM/NetJets trip a month. They are rare.
If TMC lost all EJM/NetJets business it would barely make a blip on TMC's bottom line.

 

[squonk]

I'm a pro-union TMC pilot.
I just have to correct a common misunderstanding: In many threads here on FI, NetJets pilots seem to think that TMC's primary income comes from EJM scabbing. I fly on average one EJM trip a month. If TMC lost all EJM/NetJets business it would barely make a blip on TMC's bottom line.
You NetJetters are not as big and important as you think you are.

It's not that we think we're that important. It's that we know how TM will be used if and when a strike happens on property.

Doesn't matter that you're flying only one trip a month. If your company is flying ten trips a day spread over x-amount of airframes, well you get the picture.

Sign the card, vote, and be welcomed to the brotherhood. Tailwinds my friend!

 

[rajflyboy]

Start giving out free RV's

That's all I gotta say about that

 

[CMI]

Do you think they will send out management pilots over the holidays? I'd love to see DEMM do a 15 day (70+ Hour) rotation with all his BULL$h!t standards he holds all the pilots to. Merry F*#king Xmas, Thanks for playing!

 

[G4dude]

And a number of those clients have come back to us because that d-bag couldn't help himself screwing some of those clients.

And the discussion was about Travel Management and the fact that they are the primary provider of supplemental lift to NetJets for sell-offs. The owner of TM sold his main business to Berkshire Hathaway a few years back. See the connection?

I see. So if they unionize, I guess they won't fly our trips if we strike. They would cost themselves money as individual pilots (if they are paid by the trip or by the hour) so they could honor our picket line. Interesting if true. Good for us, if true. I doubt they would honor the picket line, but, incredibly, I have been wrong before.

 

[G4dude]

Clay Lacy unionize? He is the poster child of an "in your face" scab. Only out for himself.

Which allows him to further expand his company and hire more pilots.

 

[realityman]

Which allows him to further expand his company and hire more pilots.

.........or just keep more money for himself while screwing over his employees.


The thought that keeping labor costs low will allow for more company expansion doesn't really have a direct correlation.

For example, let's say you have a charter company with 50 clients. Enough to keep 10 planes and 25 pilots reasonably busy and still turn a profit. Now, if the owner of the company could cut labor costs in half, how would that allow for expansion? The number of clients hasn't changed, so no need for more planes. No, he just pockets the extra money and laughs at his employees.

Would cutting his pilots' salary in half allow him to drop his prices so much that he could attract a lot of new business? Can you give an example in aviation where you've EVER seen that happen?

I remember right after 9/11 the airlines had priced many tickets so low they were practically giving them away. Naturally, they were losing money with that stupidity. The end result was almost all of the legacy carriers ended up in bankruptcy. They gutted most of their employees' contracts while in bankruptcy and wrung major concessions out of everyone, including the pilots. So, did you see ticket prices fall, or at least stay low after labor costs were reduced? Were more pilots hired? Even now, while making good profits, they aren't expanding much. They've only appeared to get bigger because of consolidation. Yes, there's hiring going on but it's mostly from attrition.

So come on G4, show me an aviation company that cut pilot costs and used that money to expand.

I don't know what aviation universe you're living in, but in this one taking away from pilots ends with richer upper management, not bigger companies.

 

[G4dude]

.........or just keep more money for himself while screwing over his employees.


The thought that keeping labor costs low will allow for more company expansion doesn't really have a direct correlation.

For example, let's say you have a charter company with 50 clients. Enough to keep 10 planes and 25 pilots reasonably busy and still turn a profit. Now, if the owner of the company could cut labor costs in half, how would that allow for expansion? The number of clients hasn't changed, so no need for more planes. No, he just pockets the extra money and laughs at his employees.

Would cutting his pilots' salary in half allow him to drop his prices so much that he could attract a lot of new business? Can you give an example in aviation where you've EVER seen that happen?

I remember right after 9/11 the airlines had priced many tickets so low they were practically giving them away. Naturally, they were losing money with that stupidity. The end result was almost all of the legacy carriers ended up in bankruptcy. They gutted most of their employees' contracts while in bankruptcy and wrung major concessions out of everyone, including the pilots. So, did you see ticket prices fall, or at least stay low after labor costs were reduced? Were more pilots hired? Even now, while making good profits, they aren't expanding much. They've only appeared to get bigger because of consolidation. Yes, there's hiring going on but it's mostly from attrition.

So come on G4, show me an aviation company that cut pilot costs and used that money to expand.

I don't know what aviation universe you're living in, but in this one taking away from pilots ends with richer upper management, not bigger companies.

When aviation companies cut expenses and still provide a good product, they expand by offering lower prices, generating higher volume, creating the requirement for more planes and pilots. Salaries of pilots are set by the tension between pilots' desire to make maximum money and management's desire to pay minimum dollars for pilots. If the pilots are not happy, they can go elsewhere, especially in today's marketplace dealing with the shortage of aviators.

 

[G4dude]

.........or just keep more money for himself while screwing over his employees.


The thought that keeping labor costs low will allow for more company expansion doesn't really have a direct correlation.

For example, let's say you have a charter company with 50 clients. Enough to keep 10 planes and 25 pilots reasonably busy and still turn a profit. Now, if the owner of the company could cut labor costs in half, how would that allow for expansion? The number of clients hasn't changed, so no need for more planes. No, he just pockets the extra money and laughs at his employees.

Would cutting his pilots' salary in half allow him to drop his prices so much that he could attract a lot of new business? Can you give an example in aviation where you've EVER seen that happen?

I remember right after 9/11 the airlines had priced many tickets so low they were practically giving them away. Naturally, they were losing money with that stupidity. The end result was almost all of the legacy carriers ended up in bankruptcy. They gutted most of their employees' contracts while in bankruptcy and wrung major concessions out of everyone, including the pilots. So, did you see ticket prices fall, or at least stay low after labor costs were reduced? Were more pilots hired? Even now, while making good profits, they aren't expanding much. They've only appeared to get bigger because of consolidation. Yes, there's hiring going on but it's mostly from attrition.

So come on G4, show me an aviation company that cut pilot costs and used that money to expand.

I don't know what aviation universe you're living in, but in this one taking away from pilots ends with richer upper management, not bigger companies.

An example: Delta paid pilots an exorbitant amount a few years ago, an "industry leading contract." What a laugh. You know who benefitted? Valuejet/Airtrans. They expanded because their main competitor was overpriced due to bloated overhead brought on by, you guessed it, that wonderful "industry leading contract!"

 

[CMI]

I think we all know who G4D0uche is blowing under the table in VNY!

 

[realityman]

An example: Delta paid pilots an exorbitant amount a few years ago, an "industry leading contract." What a laugh. You know who benefitted? Valuejet/Airtrans. They expanded because their main competitor was overpriced due to bloated overhead brought on by, you guessed it, that wonderful "industry leading contract!"

Are you sure you're not in management? Because the line "It's labor costs that are ruining this company." is their standard line.

Airtran's business model was very different from Delta's. Two types at the most. Same way Southwest was able to keep costs down. This "expensive pilot" argument has been debunked repeatedly, and I'm out of time. Gotta go.

 

[ghostrider64]

G4 point is all fine and good, yet he avoids one major fact....Netjets is swimming in profits and has done so for years, even the down ones. They don't expand due to lower costs, they expend when demand for private planes increases.

BTW G4 haven't you heard, Netjets is no longer cutting prices (I confirmed this recently by speaking directly to a senior regional sales manager), they are actually increasing prices because everything they have to sell, is pretty much SOLD! Oh but that flies in the face that they have to cut costs(pilot pay and benefits) in order to increase sales...

You're either a management idiot/plant, or you've absolutely no idea what the hell is really going on.

 

[Hawkered]

G4 point is all fine and good, yet he avoids one major fact....Netjets is swimming in profits and has done so for years, even the down ones. They don't expand due to lower costs, they expend when demand for private planes increases.

BTW G4 haven't you heard, Netjets is no longer cutting prices (I confirmed this recently by speaking directly to a senior regional sales manager), they are actually increasing prices because everything they have to sell, is pretty much SOLD! Oh but that flies in the face that they have to cut costs(pilot pay and benefits) in order to increase sales...

You're either a management idiot/plant, or you've absolutely no idea what the hell is really going on.

Or both. Your final paragraph suggests the two are mutually exclusive, we've found out recently they're not.

 

[windshear73]

We won! 120 yes, and 57 no of 192 eligible voters. TMC Jets is now an organized pilot group!

 

[windshear73]

http://teamster.org/news/2014/12/travel-management-company-pilots-vote-join-teamsters

 

[CRAWDADDY]

When was the last time anyone heard from Publishers?