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I Want to Throw Up...
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Salty Dog
2 bells, no stinger
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
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- 152
Part of the pay question is the ability to work in the field of your passion.
You would have to pay me more than 80 grand a year to die slowly in front of a computer, slaving away in front of a box that will drive me blind in 30 years. Of course, I would have to get at least that much to support my flying habit!
I would gladly take 30k less in a flying job because I wouldn't have to pay to feed the monkey on the side. It's priorities. MY priorities. Disparage my sentiments if you must, but that's the way I see it. And yes, part of that low rate is directly due to the lure of bigger jets and bigger bucks later on down the road. I could never afford that on the side unless I was Bill Gates.
Guess what? Although many will insist that those jobs are dwindling permanently, there's still going to be thousands of 777 pilots 20 years from now, and still only one Bill Gates. Figure the odds. I did.
You would have to pay me more than 80 grand a year to die slowly in front of a computer, slaving away in front of a box that will drive me blind in 30 years. Of course, I would have to get at least that much to support my flying habit!
I would gladly take 30k less in a flying job because I wouldn't have to pay to feed the monkey on the side. It's priorities. MY priorities. Disparage my sentiments if you must, but that's the way I see it. And yes, part of that low rate is directly due to the lure of bigger jets and bigger bucks later on down the road. I could never afford that on the side unless I was Bill Gates.
Guess what? Although many will insist that those jobs are dwindling permanently, there's still going to be thousands of 777 pilots 20 years from now, and still only one Bill Gates. Figure the odds. I did.
Salty Dog said:
Just so you're aware, the reason there is better pay for the bigger jets isn't b/c people like you will fly jets for peanuts. "If you'll fly jets for less pay, then why does the size really matter?" is what managment would say to your opinion.
Not disparaging you, but when you use logic like that, I don't think you're seeing the forrest for the trees.
-Boo!
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
... I can train most of the computer programmers I know to fly an airplane. I don't think there are too many pilots that are willing and/or able to learn how to write complex computer applications. Flying is more fun, requires less discipline to learn and is a trade that can be learned by most anyone with enough money.
Oh yeah, enlighten us more, Mr. 700 hours....
Lima Oscar Sierra Echo Romeo....
Oh yeah, enlighten us more, Mr. 700 hours....
Lima Oscar Sierra Echo Romeo....
Ralph
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2003
- Posts
- 83
Ok Mr 4500 hours 
I have ten+ years of experience managing applications development. This includes C++, Visual Basic, Perl, Cold Fusion, Java, and Object Oriented C++. Of course this included managing Unix servers (AIX, Solaris, etc...) as well as good old Microsoft products.
I spent a great deal of time teaching technology as well. In fact I worked full time as an instructor at a community college teaching programming.
Now I work as a CFI.
It is possible to take a 0 time pilot and teach them how to fly a relatively complex aircraft in six months or less. I think we can all find places that do this. In fact I would say a person with a 12th grade education and a fat wallet could definitely accomplish this.
It is impossible to take someone with little to no computer experience and have them programming at a competent level in six months. No amount of cash will fix that. Perhaps if we started with someone who is highly logical, bright and well educated we could do it. But that same guy would zip through the flying curriculum in a lot less time.
Responsibility aside, flying is a lot less complicated but a while lot more fun.
I have ten+ years of experience managing applications development. This includes C++, Visual Basic, Perl, Cold Fusion, Java, and Object Oriented C++. Of course this included managing Unix servers (AIX, Solaris, etc...) as well as good old Microsoft products.
I spent a great deal of time teaching technology as well. In fact I worked full time as an instructor at a community college teaching programming.
Now I work as a CFI.
It is possible to take a 0 time pilot and teach them how to fly a relatively complex aircraft in six months or less. I think we can all find places that do this. In fact I would say a person with a 12th grade education and a fat wallet could definitely accomplish this.
It is impossible to take someone with little to no computer experience and have them programming at a competent level in six months. No amount of cash will fix that. Perhaps if we started with someone who is highly logical, bright and well educated we could do it. But that same guy would zip through the flying curriculum in a lot less time.
Responsibility aside, flying is a lot less complicated but a while lot more fun.
bigD
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Posts
- 2,020
I disagree with this. Give me 6 solid months with anyone that truly wants to learn, and I can give him/her a pretty solid foundation in programming. At that point he/she would be ready to focus their training to whatever specific programming field they wanted to go into.
Now, if by competent you mean that they can write code in 5 different languages and perform all sorts of programming tasks, from back end internet programming to 3D games, it'll take more time. But we're just talking a foundation here, and that's no different than a 250 hour CFI that just laid the groundwork for more specific training later.
Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
While I generally agree with what you're trying to say (programming is more difficult than GA flying) I must respectfully disagree with this statement. Six months is actually PLENTY of time to become a junior-level ASP or VB (desktop) developer. You ain't gonna be able to do much with advanced tools like the myriad database connectivity protocols, but you can code competently.
I don't think, however, this would be true of Java, JSP, C/C++, at least in my personal experience.
Minh
(ASP, VB, JSP, SQL geek)
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
I have ten+ years of experience managing applications development. This includes C++, Visual Basic, Perl, Cold Fusion, Java, and Object Oriented C++. Of course this included managing Unix servers (AIX, Solaris, etc...) as well as good old Microsoft products.
...and 700 hours. So what would a low-time CFI know about a complex airliner? Nada. Tell me about ACARS, AFIS, EFIS EICAS. Lets, discuss why the auto feature on a CRJ will not bring on B pumps until flaps are lowered and which will not come on with cross-side IDG not operating.
Let's take a CRJ off at ROA with a deferred APU in icing conditions and set up the bleeds correctly so that we neither crash into a mountain or blow the passengers eardrums.
What am I talking about? Oh, sorry, I forgot you are a LOW TIME CFI talking about piloting skills and equipment he KNOWS NOTHING about. So why do you see fit to display us as a lower species than yourself?
Now I am not Mr. Computer, but I have a working knowledge of C, C++ and C#. And it was easier and followed logic better than advanced flying does. Programming requires little or no decision making, "big picture thinking" or risk of life. And if a problem arises, there is time to fix it. Piloting an advanced aircraft while defying gravity and in weather that is trying its darndest to forcefully eject you from its element is a little more demanding. Does anyone EXPECT a programmer to work for 18,000 bucks? No. But pilots are EXPECTED to do it. If we say or do anything, we get the old "supply and demand" speech from everyone who took Economics 101. Well, show me the shortage of doctors. They don't make 18,000 bucks. Show me the shortage of lawyers, they don't make 18,000 bucks.
BTW, there is no shortage of programmers, yet you guys make much better money.
Gimme a break. In the meantime, just keep dispensing those pearls of wisdom from your 152.
...and 700 hours. So what would a low-time CFI know about a complex airliner? Nada. Tell me about ACARS, AFIS, EFIS EICAS. Lets, discuss why the auto feature on a CRJ will not bring on B pumps until flaps are lowered and which will not come on with cross-side IDG not operating.
Let's take a CRJ off at ROA with a deferred APU in icing conditions and set up the bleeds correctly so that we neither crash into a mountain or blow the passengers eardrums.
What am I talking about? Oh, sorry, I forgot you are a LOW TIME CFI talking about piloting skills and equipment he KNOWS NOTHING about. So why do you see fit to display us as a lower species than yourself?
Now I am not Mr. Computer, but I have a working knowledge of C, C++ and C#. And it was easier and followed logic better than advanced flying does. Programming requires little or no decision making, "big picture thinking" or risk of life. And if a problem arises, there is time to fix it. Piloting an advanced aircraft while defying gravity and in weather that is trying its darndest to forcefully eject you from its element is a little more demanding. Does anyone EXPECT a programmer to work for 18,000 bucks? No. But pilots are EXPECTED to do it. If we say or do anything, we get the old "supply and demand" speech from everyone who took Economics 101. Well, show me the shortage of doctors. They don't make 18,000 bucks. Show me the shortage of lawyers, they don't make 18,000 bucks.
BTW, there is no shortage of programmers, yet you guys make much better money.
Gimme a break. In the meantime, just keep dispensing those pearls of wisdom from your 152.
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Different Strokes for Different Folks.
Some people are better equipped to be pilots - perhaps better eye to hand coordination, maybe better at snap judgements under pressure - while others have more patience and are able to have the minute attention to detail and logic that a computer programmer needs. I've flown both tail and tandem rotor helos as well as props and jet airliners - and while I'm certainly not the ace of the base, I've never crashed (my flight attendants might dispute that
) I can't say the same (not crashing) about my programming! I earned a minor in computer science (although the hot thing back then was the "new" 80286 chip) but there was no way I could do it professionally. I still see run-time error 33 system crash in my sleep. For me personally, I think flying is easier than programming.
Some people are better equipped to be pilots - perhaps better eye to hand coordination, maybe better at snap judgements under pressure - while others have more patience and are able to have the minute attention to detail and logic that a computer programmer needs. I've flown both tail and tandem rotor helos as well as props and jet airliners - and while I'm certainly not the ace of the base, I've never crashed (my flight attendants might dispute that
) I can't say the same (not crashing) about my programming! I earned a minor in computer science (although the hot thing back then was the "new" 80286 chip) but there was no way I could do it professionally. I still see run-time error 33 system crash in my sleep. For me personally, I think flying is easier than programming.
Ralph
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2003
- Posts
- 83
ok Mr acacranky...
Are you going to explain it? If there is no shortage of programmers and its pretty easy then explain to me why it will take at least 5 years to get back to the salary I had as a programmer? Its not supply and demand either so why is it that the starting salary at ACA is maybe $25,000.00 a year? At least that is the pay posted at
http://lasso.pilotjobs.com/PilotJobs/PilotJobs_Display.0.LassoApp?airline=Mg==
Is it more and I just don't know it?
Or are you an angry 14 year old home for the summer?
Do all airline guys think only losers fly in a 152 or is that just you?
Are you going to explain it? If there is no shortage of programmers and its pretty easy then explain to me why it will take at least 5 years to get back to the salary I had as a programmer? Its not supply and demand either so why is it that the starting salary at ACA is maybe $25,000.00 a year? At least that is the pay posted at
http://lasso.pilotjobs.com/PilotJobs/PilotJobs_Display.0.LassoApp?airline=Mg==
Is it more and I just don't know it?
Or are you an angry 14 year old home for the summer?
Do all airline guys think only losers fly in a 152 or is that just you?
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
May I direct your attention to the original post, the point I am making is clear (not in code). Thus, your reply does not make sense to me.
No, we don't think only losers fly 152's, in fact I love the things. But I DO think that someone with 700 hrs and NO advanced flying experience saying that it is easier to take a zero hour pilot and put them in advanced aircraft in just 6 months than to be a programmer is just plain ignorant. Son, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have instructed at everything from a one-plane FBO to an airlines ab-initio school. And while the certificates are issued and a 350-450 hour pilot went from school to the line, it was understood that they needed lots of time to be considered safe and experienced. They knew well what to do, but not why most of the time. Putting together a "big picture" and being able to excercise good judgement and make decisions can not be developed in 6 months for this type of flying. They may fly the plane sucessfully, but they don't KNOW what/why they are doing. They are just going through motions. The only way to make a living is to upgrade quickly, and an inexperienced "Captain" is out there with an inexperienced FO. Good thing the 6 month upgrade days are temporarily over. Sorry but it is a FACT. Like it or not. 18 years of flying, 6000+ flight time has taught me this. And in another 6000 hours, I will be looking back at myself saying "gee, how much I've learned since then. How much more there is to learn...". But you on the other hand, think in your 700 hours (BTW--you do not know how to teach yet. Don't be fooled by your certificate) that you can talk about a type of flying you know nothing about. And you do not even recognize your lack of knowledge and experience to make the statements you have. RING RING, school is in session. Try to learn something about this profession and the issues associated with it. Try to learn something about flying. You seem to be the kind of CFI who would tell his students a load of BS rather than admit you don't know something. Eventually you may be a Captain, the kind of Captain who thinks he knows so much more than his FO's. No Captain, myself included, would say that they never learned anything from an FO. So your 700 hours is indicative only of your need for humility. Before you go thrusting yourself into a position of telling airline pilots that they are a bunch of dummies and you programmers are the intelligencia, you may want to learn how to fly yourself. Much less to teach. When you are on IOE at wherever you get your dream job, remember our coversation. Then remember it again when you make Captain.
"Beware of the man who read the first page of an encyclopedia"
No, we don't think only losers fly 152's, in fact I love the things. But I DO think that someone with 700 hrs and NO advanced flying experience saying that it is easier to take a zero hour pilot and put them in advanced aircraft in just 6 months than to be a programmer is just plain ignorant. Son, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have instructed at everything from a one-plane FBO to an airlines ab-initio school. And while the certificates are issued and a 350-450 hour pilot went from school to the line, it was understood that they needed lots of time to be considered safe and experienced. They knew well what to do, but not why most of the time. Putting together a "big picture" and being able to excercise good judgement and make decisions can not be developed in 6 months for this type of flying. They may fly the plane sucessfully, but they don't KNOW what/why they are doing. They are just going through motions. The only way to make a living is to upgrade quickly, and an inexperienced "Captain" is out there with an inexperienced FO. Good thing the 6 month upgrade days are temporarily over. Sorry but it is a FACT. Like it or not. 18 years of flying, 6000+ flight time has taught me this. And in another 6000 hours, I will be looking back at myself saying "gee, how much I've learned since then. How much more there is to learn...". But you on the other hand, think in your 700 hours (BTW--you do not know how to teach yet. Don't be fooled by your certificate) that you can talk about a type of flying you know nothing about. And you do not even recognize your lack of knowledge and experience to make the statements you have. RING RING, school is in session. Try to learn something about this profession and the issues associated with it. Try to learn something about flying. You seem to be the kind of CFI who would tell his students a load of BS rather than admit you don't know something. Eventually you may be a Captain, the kind of Captain who thinks he knows so much more than his FO's. No Captain, myself included, would say that they never learned anything from an FO. So your 700 hours is indicative only of your need for humility. Before you go thrusting yourself into a position of telling airline pilots that they are a bunch of dummies and you programmers are the intelligencia, you may want to learn how to fly yourself. Much less to teach. When you are on IOE at wherever you get your dream job, remember our coversation. Then remember it again when you make Captain.
"Beware of the man who read the first page of an encyclopedia"
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Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
Not to offend your Captainess ...
But based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.
Now up to ATP standards ... I dunno. Dat's a different animal altogether. When I get there (and am finally flying my 135 dream job) I'll post again from that perspective.
But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?
I say again ... I'll trade jobs with any working CFI right now (and my pay should eventually be restored to what I signed on for ... $55K).
Minh
But based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.
Now up to ATP standards ... I dunno. Dat's a different animal altogether. When I get there (and am finally flying my 135 dream job) I'll post again from that perspective.
But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?
I say again ... I'll trade jobs with any working CFI right now (and my pay should eventually be restored to what I signed on for ... $55K).
Minh
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acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
Not to offend your Captainess ...
.based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.
Hey Dingus,
Read my original post. I am NOT talking about GA flying. Since that simple little bit of information is not clear, I shall not wasteth my time with you on this part of it.
But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?
And another thing...
the reason to your question is not a grudge. It's about why we are we EXPECTED to settle for less. You Computer/Business types cry the loudest whenever a pilot group strikes for something better. Then you have the ball$ to join our ranks with all the money you made in PC Land and tell those of us who came up the HARD way that we should just take it up the a$$ and like it? Get lost. Better yet, stay in your cubes with the other guys who have no work ethics...
.based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.
Hey Dingus,
Read my original post. I am NOT talking about GA flying. Since that simple little bit of information is not clear, I shall not wasteth my time with you on this part of it.
But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?
And another thing...
the reason to your question is not a grudge. It's about why we are we EXPECTED to settle for less. You Computer/Business types cry the loudest whenever a pilot group strikes for something better. Then you have the ball$ to join our ranks with all the money you made in PC Land and tell those of us who came up the HARD way that we should just take it up the a$$ and like it? Get lost. Better yet, stay in your cubes with the other guys who have no work ethics...
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