I Want to Throw Up...

[46Driver]

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

Some people are better equipped to be pilots - perhaps better eye to hand coordination, maybe better at snap judgements under pressure - while others have more patience and are able to have the minute attention to detail and logic that a computer programmer needs. I've flown both tail and tandem rotor helos as well as props and jet airliners - and while I'm certainly not the ace of the base, I've never crashed (my flight attendants might dispute that ) I can't say the same (not crashing) about my programming! I earned a minor in computer science (although the hot thing back then was the "new" 80286 chip) but there was no way I could do it professionally. I still see run-time error 33 system crash in my sleep. For me personally, I think flying is easier than programming.

 

[Ralph]

ok Mr acacranky...

Are you going to explain it? If there is no shortage of programmers and its pretty easy then explain to me why it will take at least 5 years to get back to the salary I had as a programmer? Its not supply and demand either so why is it that the starting salary at ACA is maybe $25,000.00 a year? At least that is the pay posted at

http://lasso.pilotjobs.com/PilotJobs/PilotJobs_Display.0.LassoApp?airline=Mg==

Is it more and I just don't know it?

Or are you an angry 14 year old home for the summer?

Do all airline guys think only losers fly in a 152 or is that just you?

 

[acaTerry]

May I direct your attention to the original post, the point I am making is clear (not in code). Thus, your reply does not make sense to me.
No, we don't think only losers fly 152's, in fact I love the things. But I DO think that someone with 700 hrs and NO advanced flying experience saying that it is easier to take a zero hour pilot and put them in advanced aircraft in just 6 months than to be a programmer is just plain ignorant. Son, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have instructed at everything from a one-plane FBO to an airlines ab-initio school. And while the certificates are issued and a 350-450 hour pilot went from school to the line, it was understood that they needed lots of time to be considered safe and experienced. They knew well what to do, but not why most of the time. Putting together a "big picture" and being able to excercise good judgement and make decisions can not be developed in 6 months for this type of flying. They may fly the plane sucessfully, but they don't KNOW what/why they are doing. They are just going through motions. The only way to make a living is to upgrade quickly, and an inexperienced "Captain" is out there with an inexperienced FO. Good thing the 6 month upgrade days are temporarily over. Sorry but it is a FACT. Like it or not. 18 years of flying, 6000+ flight time has taught me this. And in another 6000 hours, I will be looking back at myself saying "gee, how much I've learned since then. How much more there is to learn...". But you on the other hand, think in your 700 hours (BTW--you do not know how to teach yet. Don't be fooled by your certificate) that you can talk about a type of flying you know nothing about. And you do not even recognize your lack of knowledge and experience to make the statements you have. RING RING, school is in session. Try to learn something about this profession and the issues associated with it. Try to learn something about flying. You seem to be the kind of CFI who would tell his students a load of BS rather than admit you don't know something. Eventually you may be a Captain, the kind of Captain who thinks he knows so much more than his FO's. No Captain, myself included, would say that they never learned anything from an FO. So your 700 hours is indicative only of your need for humility. Before you go thrusting yourself into a position of telling airline pilots that they are a bunch of dummies and you programmers are the intelligencia, you may want to learn how to fly yourself. Much less to teach. When you are on IOE at wherever you get your dream job, remember our coversation. Then remember it again when you make Captain.

"Beware of the man who read the first page of an encyclopedia"

 

[Snakum]

Not to offend your Captainess ...

But based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.

Now up to ATP standards ... I dunno. Dat's a different animal altogether. When I get there (and am finally flying my 135 dream job) I'll post again from that perspective.

But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?

I say again ... I'll trade jobs with any working CFI right now (and my pay should eventually be restored to what I signed on for ... $55K).

Minh

 

[acaTerry]

Not to offend your Captainess ...

.based on my personal experience, and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, it was easier for me to learn to fly up to PPL/IR than to learn C++ development. I don't think this guy is trying to offend anyone, rather just stating what many of us here can attest to from experience ... GA flying is easier than PC development.

Hey Dingus,
Read my original post. I am NOT talking about GA flying. Since that simple little bit of information is not clear, I shall not wasteth my time with you on this part of it.

But regardless ... why begrudge someone doing what they love and making more than you? We all know that untill we're at Delta/AA/UAL/etc. most of us are not gonna make anything close to what we could make staying in the IT field. If you wanna live in a cube and make big bucks there are IT training schools everywhere (PFT?) and the IT job market will improve eventually. Go for it. But if you wanna continue to fly ... well I guess what I'm saying is that we all started this knowing where we'd likely be financially for many years. Why cry about what someone else makes?

And another thing...
the reason to your question is not a grudge. It's about why we are we EXPECTED to settle for less. You Computer/Business types cry the loudest whenever a pilot group strikes for something better. Then you have the ball$ to join our ranks with all the money you made in PC Land and tell those of us who came up the HARD way that we should just take it up the a$$ and like it? Get lost. Better yet, stay in your cubes with the other guys who have no work ethics...

 

[Snakum]

You truly are a putz, aren't you. You're disatisfied with your lot in life and so you lash out at others. Does it make you feel better? Does it help your situation? If it helps, I'm happy to be the target of your immature diatribes.

If you don't wanna play anymore ... leave aviation and do something else. That way you open a space up, a charter guy moves up, a CFI moves to charter, and a CFI job will open up for me when I finish up. Everyone wins ... everyone gets what they want.

Shall I forward your resume to my employer? Can you type?

Minh

 

[JimNtexas]

And another thing...
the reason to your question is not a grudge. It's about why we are we EXPECTED to settle for less. You Computer/Business types cry the loudest whenever a pilot group strikes for something better. Then you have the ball$ to join our ranks with all the money you made in PC Land and tell those of us who came up the HARD way that we should just take it up the a$$ and like it? Get lost. Better yet, stay in your cubes with the other guys who have no work ethics...

Your Captainess, no one is telling you anything of the sort. The fact is though, that among the population of planet earth there are far fewer people who can program computers at the professional level than there are people who can fly airplanes at the professional level.

Both pilots and programmers can start in their teens, but most pilots can fly into their 60s and beyond, but it is a rare person who can program for nearly that long. Programmers burn out faster than pilots.

Pilots are limited by law and contract as to the number of hours they can fly in a month. This is a Good Thing, I certainly don't want to ride with an exhausted pilot.

No such law applies to programmers. In general Programmers work many more hours than pilots. The market rewards them for these long hours.

For these reasons and other reasons, the free market has determinded that programmers make more money early in their career than pilots. Its a fact.

You are only hurting yourself by gnashing your teeth because somebody, somewhere, is making more than you. You would do well to quit worrying about what somebody else has or doesn't have, and just concentrate on maximizing the happiness in your own life.

 

[colored_airman]

While we are all going 'round and 'round in here about everything from which regional pilot group $ucks or whatever, let me vent about something that REALLY ticks me off. THE COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS!!

Here we are flying multi-million dollar equipment with all the lives at stake, gone through countless hoops to get here and get what, $20,000 year one, $23,000 year two?

My brother in law, a 29 year old computer programmer got a job offer at (un-named) airlines for.....$79,000 TO START!!!!!!

WTFIT? They are not in shortage. Their screw-ups will not kill people. They did not work their way up at SUB-poverty level wages for YEARS to get to their job. So why do they command such astronomical wages?

THEN, to really, REALLY tick me off, he says "well 79 thousand is OK, but it's not what I'm worth". Then, he has the ball$ to say "Well, I earn my money because sometimes I have to go out on the ramp (he called it tarmac---ignorant a$$) to do something. And sometimes, I have to work on a Saturday. Pilots just sit there and fly. It's not like you have to do anything or know anything. All you do is push a couple buttons".

IGNORANT, SPOILED LITTLE *&%$##&^@(!!!!!!

Geez, and here we are getting mad at other pilot groups. Just plain unjust.

Dude if you are going to spew..........then spew in this

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[upncoming]

Re: Re: I Want to Throw Up...

Dude if you are going to spew..........then spew in this

Well said. AcaTerri, don't know why you're going off like you are, but I've stopped listening.

To get away from that and back to the meat of where this thread has gone, I'd have to agree with Ralph and disagree with bigD's first statement. As a computer engineer for 10+ years designing and managing all types of software development efforts spaning a number of fields and technology areas, and NOW an airline type (sorry Terri, I DO fly advanced equipment) I can tell you that it's far more difficult to be a computer type than it is an airline type. Essentially, both are stressful jobs with frustrating aspects. But lemme tell ya, only the geekiest of the geeks enjoys developing software. Generally, pilots love to fly. Therein is the heart of the matter and it's actually the genesis of Terri's outbursts.

Also, everyone QUIT calling it "programming", unless that's the limit of your focus. Software engineering is much, much, much more than just slinging code. Where I disagree with bigD and agree with Ralph is that while I could teach someone the linguistics of a particular language or two, I couldn't teach them the fundamentals of software design and the development cycle that are the core of any serious development effort. After 6 months about the best someone could expect to do is to be able to generate what is called "spaghetti code", which is software that isn't designed well and has no cohesion or pattern to which it adheres. You COULD hand them previous examples of well designed software and they could possibly use that to develop something, but the minute it has problems, they'd be lost in how to correct those problems. High schoolers sit down and "program", engineers develop systems, to put it simply.

Okay, enough. We're out in an hour, so I'm gonna fire 'er up Terri. This means an APU and other pieces of "advanced" equipment.

 

[bigD]

upncoming - you make a very good point, and I agree that a programmer with only 6 months' worth of experience isn't going to be a full fledged "software developer". But I think that's the point. I can't create a "software developer" in 6 months, but I can teach a guy to write code. Just like how one can go from 0 time to CFI in 6 months, but still have no idea how to be an airline pilot. There's a huge amount left to learn.

I guess I'm just trying to dispel some myth that only geeks can be programmers. It takes time and experience to get good, but just about anyone can do it. I think the problem is that most people don't WANT to!

 

[JimNtexas]

"Also, everyone QUIT calling it "programming", "

We should take this to /. , but I don't consider software to be an engineering disipline.

Guys who design bridges are engineers, they have a good body of math models that tell them how to design to satisify their customer.

Nobody knows enough about software to really produce repeatable results. If you think drawing boxes on the whiteboard is engineering, that's fine. I respectfully disagree.

BTW, as exhibit one for my case and to make this post aviation related: F-22 software. The F-22 is a wonder-weapon from an airframe and engine design POV, but it has about the same software reliablity as Windows ME. The F-22 software system freezes about once every 90 minutes. This after 20 years of programming.

 

[135fr8r]

Everyone who is involved in a professional career has done hours and hours of hard work and study to get where they are. It matters not what field you are in. If it is something one desires to do, he/she will do well. It doesn`t take a genious to become a pilot, programmer, lawyer, doctor, etc... It takes a desire to accomplish a goal.

You can argue about this, that, and everything else, but it doesn`t mean it will ever be resolved. You could find the right dumbass, and he could argue that a stop sign is the color blue. Knowing the sign isn`t really blue, he could still argue until he is red in the face.

Give it up, some of you sound like a bunch of high school kids arguing over who has the biggest dick.

As far as the pay at the regionals is concerned, I do agree it sucks. That`s why I suffered a little and chose 135 freight. Had no life, but I never ate ramen noodles and pb&j`s.

 

[acaTerry]

If you don't wanna play anymore ... leave aviation and do something else.

Spoken like a true quitter. I love aviation, but I hate the injustice the pilots endure because of the up-and-coming richies who don't care to take a hard line with the companies and make thing things better. Sounds just like the caliber of a PC king. If it's hard, quit. Now that is what I call a work ethic! Geez

The fact is though, that among the population of planet earth there are far fewer people who can program computers at the professional level than there are people who can fly airplanes at the professional level.

Bull Freakin Loney!! Look at ALPA's represenation, Mr. I'm So Important, there are that many programmers (no, I will not call you an engineer) in the Western states alone.

In general Programmers work many more hours than pilots.

Oh you must be exhausted coming home nearly every night, off on holidays. Let me see, average line for a pilot....310 hours time away. But don't worry, that $1.60 an hour per diem makes up for that. Duty (actual work) time for an 84 hour month....207 hours.
Don't forget, the lines are typically built to about 77 hours or so, so the 84 hour line comes from giving up a few days off to get enough hours to pay the bills. Of this 310 hours away from home, 207 hours at work, we get paid....84 hours of pay. We don't get a salary. We get $200/week in training, we get no bonus or overtime pay. We get to pay for our own medical...get the picture? Oh, looking at your profile, you wouldn't know.


You are only hurting yourself by gnashing your teeth because somebody, somewhere, is making more than you. You would do well to quit worrying about what somebody else has or doesn't have, and just concentrate on maximizing the happiness in your own life.

I am not worried about someone making more than me. I am sore about the very people who are doing it go and make it impossible for any of us to make it better by
a) going beserk when pilots strike or refuse to sign a TA and/or
b) making all the money at computing/programming then coming to the airlines with deep pockets and signing everything the company throws at them, thus keeping pilots paid like they are. I will not even get into working conditions. Ask any reserve pilot about that. Do not be fooled by the "14 hour max duty period for rerserve pilots" ruling. The companies have found several ways to turn that into whatever they need. Example: you are on rest until 0600 tomorrow. You get a call at 0605, scheduling has changed your rest period. Now you are on rest until 1500. At 1500, you are on duty for 14 hours. How do you fall asleep after a full nights sleep? Now you get called to work flying parts up and down the East Coast until 0300, put on rest until 1100, and go back to work for a 12-14 hour day (they CAN keep you longer if they want) and call that safe? Much less, worth $18,000-$22,000 a year? Maybe when you get there you will see what we mean...

AcaTerri,

Cute, I'm going to cry...

Anyways....I am still waiting for someone to answer intelligently my question.......what makes my 29 year old brother-in-law worth $79,000 to peck at a computer in a risk-free, climate controlled environment, work 5 days a week for 8 (worst case 10) hours a day, and have weekends and holidays off while a pilot at that same airline gets less than half that amount?

 

[B1900DFO]

Are you seriously still asking that question? It seems obvious to me. The reason is that there are thousands of pilots that will give absolutely anything to one day fly a big jet and hopefully make a decent wage. It boils down to a basic lack of self worth. You do not make what you are worth you make what you can negotiate. Many people on here bitch about regional salaries and then in the next breath complain about so-called "mainline pigs" who actually fight for a decent wage instead of this 20-35 dollars/hour crap. The fact is programmers seem to understand that they are worth something and refuse to settle for sub-standard wages. There's your answer. We talk big and then settle for sh#t.

 

[bigD]

Anyways....I am still waiting for someone to answer intelligently my question.......what makes my 29 year old brother-in-law worth $79,000 to peck at a computer in a risk-free, climate controlled environment, work 5 days a week for 8 (worst case 10) hours a day, and have weekends and holidays off while a pilot at that same airline gets less than half that amount?

I thought we HAD answered that intelligently. There aren't any programmers willing to work that particular position for less money. Do you really think the airline would have hired your brother-in-law if some other programmer had offerred to do the same job for $60K?

Now look at all the pilots out there. How many of them are willing to work at your airline for less than $79K?

There's your answer. It has nothing to do with who's job is harder, or more dangerous, or whatever else.

 

[pilotyip]

stated before

Like it or not, pilots are a commodity, they are interchangeable they do the same thing. I am not disparaging the pilot group but that is an irrefutable fact of life. Other employees bring to their prospective employers a unique skill to do something for the company that not everyone can do like a pilot. And as stated before this person sits across from the interviewer and says it will cost you X dollars for me to work for you, that is my going price. Pilots in a 121 union environment are paid according to the contract take it or leave it. Being a pilot is too much fun and too easy to learn and it has been that way since 1945

 

[LearLove]

Pilotyip's right - it will be that way and has been since the Wright Bros built the second plane and started paying people to fly it.

 

[Ralph]

I think we've been had by flame bait, dohhhhhhhhh

But since we are posting flame bait.

I just finished up training at Gulf Stream Academy. My dad paid for my training using the money he made working at Eastern during the strike.

I'd like to apply to the airline with the most growth potential, so I'm thinking Mesa. Do you guys think it would help if I put on my resume that I'd pay an hourly rate to fly the planes there? Has anyone else tried just offering to pay to work? Of course I'll just live with my parents so it doesn;t really matter if I ever get paid, just so long as I get the uniform and get to sit in a jet.

 

[Snakum]

what makes my 29 year old brother-in-law worth $79,000 to peck at a computer in a risk-free, climate controlled environment, work 5 days a week for 8 (worst case 10) hours a day, and have weekends and holidays off while a pilot at that same airline gets less than half that amount?

Uhhhh ... because that's what the market will bear?

You're kinda' slow on the uptake aren't you?

And Ralph ... ROFL!

Minh "Deep Pockets" Thong

 

[acaTerry]

It boils down to a basic lack of self worth. You do not make what you are worth you make what you can negotiate. Many people on here bitch about regional salaries and then in the next breath complain about so-called "mainline pigs" who actually fight for a decent wage instead of this 20-35 dollars/hour crap. The fact is programmers seem to understand that they are worth something and refuse to settle for sub-standard wages. There's your answer. We talk big and then settle for sh#t.

FINALLY!! Thanks for being the ONLY person to answer the darn question!

Mesa, ACA, AWAC, SKW, just about everyone did it. At ACA, the TA got signed, where's the growth? I'll tell you all where....it's at Mesa, it's at TSA...

See now? You guys new to this biz, please stop giving in to every lie and scare tactic thrown at you. It's kind of like a CA at UAL once told me (he was ex-EAL): "sometimes you have to do what you have to do. If the cookie crumbles....get another cookie out of the jar". (You can get another job). Stop the speech about paying the bills if I lose my job, etc. So you may have to actually work again for a while, but you WILL get a job flying again. I know this is a horrible thought for some of the younger pilots out there who think their summer job driving pizza was hard, but....
You guys (those who give in ) are the reason things are going Tango Uniform. Until the companies see pilots with ball$ again, it will never change.

B1900DFO is the first person to hit the point. You made money before you got to the airline biz, so stop screwing those who came up the hard way and are trying to improve it. Show your worth. Those RJ's are killing the mainline pilots, that's bad enough. But letting them kill us too b/c you'll fly for peanuts is even worse.