I Want to Throw Up...

[OneTuffGuy]

all i can say is it is good MESA only has pilots to screw the rest of use over. Imagine if they get M.D.s, D.V.M.s, D.D.S.s, or even computer programers. I guess if MESA ran the world everone would need food stamps.

 

[jetdriven]

Why are you so bitter??

Did your mommy not hold you enough as a child?? Or did you not get past the interview here??

 

[stillaboo]

another thread hijacked by 'OneTuffGuy'. It'd be alot cooler if he liked BBQ!

-Boo!

 

[smellthejeta]

It boils down to a basic lack of self worth. You do not make what you are worth you make what you can negotiate. Many people on here bitch about regional salaries and then in the next breath complain about so-called "mainline pigs" who actually fight for a decent wage instead of this 20-35 dollars/hour crap. The fact is programmers seem to understand that they are worth something and refuse to settle for sub-standard wages. There's your answer. We talk big and then settle for sh#t.

FINALLY!! Thanks for being the ONLY person to answer the darn question!

Mesa, ACA, AWAC, SKW, just about everyone did it. At ACA, the TA got signed, where's the growth? I'll tell you all where....it's at Mesa, it's at TSA...

See now? You guys new to this biz, please stop giving in to every lie and scare tactic thrown at you. It's kind of like a CA at UAL once told me (he was ex-EAL): "sometimes you have to do what you have to do. If the cookie crumbles....get another cookie out of the jar". (You can get another job). Stop the speech about paying the bills if I lose my job, etc. So you may have to actually work again for a while, but you WILL get a job flying again. I know this is a horrible thought for some of the younger pilots out there who think their summer job driving pizza was hard, but....
You guys (those who give in ) are the reason things are going Tango Uniform. Until the companies see pilots with ball$ again, it will never change.

B1900DFO is the first person to hit the point. You made money before you got to the airline biz, so stop screwing those who came up the hard way and are trying to improve it. Show your worth. Those RJ's are killing the mainline pilots, that's bad enough. But letting them kill us too b/c you'll fly for peanuts is even worse.

Dude, you probably just opened up a massive pandora's box with that last paragraph. When I was non-revving, you know how much sh*t I caught from mainline CSR's, especially from those that were displaced out of former mainline stations?

After thinking about it, reality hit home. Those jobs that were paying $20/hr were being replaced by jobs that were paying half of that, and less to start. Those with 20 years at UA were being bought out and starting over at half of the pay. They were "new-hires" with twice the experience of the more "senior" supervisor. I had met some people from the BHM station that had gone through three companies in three years -- UAL, Whisky, and finally ACA. So are you trying to say that since you got yours from somebody else (former mainline routes) that somebody can't take yours?

The post about negotiating was correct. Your problems as pilots are two-fold: You don't negotiate for yourself (a programmer does) and you are very replacable.

The problem with a collective bargaining agreement is that you personally have little say in how the agreement is worded. In fact, somebody else generally represents you in negotiations. THere is no guarantee that your negotiators are negotiating what is best for YOU. There are all kinds of little things that I could go through if you believe a one-size-fits-all contract actually makes everybody happy. You might have special skills, but if you're the only one that has them, your negotiators won't do anything to help you.

The second is that you are expendable and/or replacable. Don't believe me? What if I told you pilots should switch to a merit pay system and that better pilots should make more money? How would you set your benchmarks/baseline? Are you going to count superficial factors like how often somebody is late to work? How about trivial stuff in the cockpit, like how far off altitude or heading you got? Are you going to say that somebody who holds altitude +/- 5 feet is a better pilot that somebody who can do it +/- 10 feet? What if you have to shoot an approach to minimums at night when tstorms are rolling through? How are you going to tell the pax that the PIC is a "B" PIC and that the FO is just off of IOE, and that you hope you make it? You don't. You're all trained to a standard.

You and I both know the entire system is set up on a pass/fail basis. You take an oral, you pass or fail. You take a checkride, you pass or fail. Again, you are all trained to a standard that you either pass or fail.

Tell me you have some degree of specialization. What do you have that the others don't? Nothing. A pilot is a pilot. How many aircraft you've flown and how may types you have is irrelevant the minute you set foot in class. You call out sick, what happens? They get another pilot. Your 747 type means nothing in a CRJ. They'll furlough you with or without that type rating. They won't miss Terry, because whatever he can do, so can somebody else. My experience in computers means something -- if I don't like my current job, I quit and go find another one, most likely with a pay raise. I challenge you to do that as a pilot. Do you think the ex Midway guys got a break because they could fly a CRJ? No, except for a shorter training class. But they get paid the same as you.

There are tons of people in line to take your job. That means management will not have a shortage of employees, and they can put them on the line as fast as they can be trained. That lowers the bar even more, because they can hand out the jobs to the cheapest bidder.

Flame me all you want for this, but I will never go to a regional unless I already have deep pockets. Why? Because you guys screw each other in contract negotiations. You piss and moan about standing up for yourselves, but if you lose that gamble, you go junior at another airline. The only way in h*ll I would do that is if I were going to a better airline. If I'm out a job, so are many others, and the competition will be stiff. So, I can't blame a guy for wanting to hold onto the job that he has and sells out his boyz because he can't afford to gamble. I have a lot of respect for the Comair guys who struck. They weren't striking for better pay, they were striking for respect and acknowledgement that Comair is now the airline people expect to retire from. If I had the money, I would have sent money to the strike fund.

You pay $30k on top of college for your ratings. You spend 2+ years making $8/hr flight instructing. You go to training and make $200/wk. You sit reserve for 1+ years making 75 hr/mo at $21/hr. It's 4 years, and you still can't afford to pay your college loans. And then you have to go through half of that again when you get a new job? It's really tough to figure out whether or not it's worth it.

I know. You love to fly we all do. I'd do anything to fly and not pay the flying bills. I'ts not work -- it's flying. It's the greatest job in the world. Please god, don't make me do something else for a living. I'd give my left nut to keep this job. Please don't furlough me, I don't know what I'll do if I can't fly. I'll take a pay cut if I can keep this job. Excuses, excuses. Most people forget that at the end of the day, what you think is fun also pays the bills.

The number of people who voted in that TA disgust me. I'm not disgusted that it passed, but at the number of people who voted it in. It's been said that in any contract negotiation, that a 51% approval indicates that the contract was the best for both parties. How so? At 60+ percent, that means enough people were satisfied with it, that management could have negotiated for LESS. Each time management got something, they'd lose a few approvals. Do that until you reach 51%. Yes, I'm aware that it doesn't work that way, but better research on management's part would have yielded a more concessionary TA that would have passed. If I were management and I got concessions passed at 95%, I would not be happy, I would be pissed that my negotiating team didn't get more.

Oh, and btw, a lot of computer people I know fly for a hobby. I know few people who fly for a living and program for fun. I will choose the airline I work for. If I don't get the one I want, so be it, I'll take a job paying $100k+ per year (ATC) and buy my own friggin' airplane. I ain't so desperate that I'll fy for peanuts.

 

[Ralph]

EXACTLY

Pilots get mad at the guy who took the job down one more notch. The major guys probably are annoyed that the flying is being farmed out to regionals with no retirement and crappy pay. Then the guys that took the regional job get mad at the guys at mesa that took it for a little less. I bet those mesa pilots are all disgusted by the guys who pay for a seat at some airline. Thats the system. It is funny how someone like acadumbutt can get so mad at anyone who lowered the bar below the notch he took it down to. When he took that regional job for crappy pay he lowered the bar, just like the mesa guys did!

 

[acaTerry]

Smellthejeta and Ralph,
You both start off with a good point, but Ralph you digress off into stupidland again. Smellthejeta, I know you at work, you are a nice guy, but you are just close enough yet just far enough from truly knowing what is going on. I really am not trying to pick on you here, but you do not see the whole picture. You are on the ramp so you see and hear just enough of the issues to develop a 2 cents worth, but you are missing the views that line pilots alone can understand. Especially the senior ones.
Ralph, ACA had 3 jets when I came on property, so STFU about ME lowering the bar. You are an ignorant kid. I am not an angry person. But I am incensed about the way the profession is dumping quickly over the lack of self respect that the newer piots have. They'll sign anything. They have not WORKED to get here. They made all their money in another line of work (air conditioned, climate controlled jobs), so they do not care to improve this one. They have the orgasm over the uniform and airplanes and are willing to get bent over b/c they have not worked for this job a long long time. They think they love flying and being an airline pilot but what they really love is the image. Those of us who worked hard and long to get here are trying to bring things up, but are being defeated by the ever-increasing population of those who are not truly dedicated to their profession. After a few TRWs and bad winters, they'll quit...
In the process, they'll F it up for the rest of us who love it and are in it for the long haul.
Now I have to go fly. Good bye. Be safe
Terry

 

[Snakum]

They have not WORKED to get here.

OK ... now you're really talking out of your ass.

I am not jumping directly into a regional with a busload of bucks I made in a cubicle, and I doubt anyone else here is either. Some have put enough money back to be able to support a family WHILE they struggle thru ramping, CFI'ing, and 135 freight. But your statement implies that we're able to skip the 'work' of becoming a professional pilot. Far from it, dippy. We don't get to skip 'Pilot Graduate School' (CFI, freight, etc.) just because we came from another field. And most of us second-career types have families and probably aren't equipped to go the Gulfstream route, if that's what you were implying. Your post was so unbelievable ill-informed I just can't keep quiet.

You're whining ... you're making ignorant, ill-informed statements ... and you're an ass.

As I said before ... if you're not happy ... and if you have it sooooo tuff ... and if you think everyone's jumping over your head directly to the left-hand seat of a what-the-hell-ever ... maybe you really should get out of aviation. Us 'up-and-comers' are all happy to move up a slot. Better yet ... if you resign Monday that's one pilot back sooner off furlough. I have a couple friends at ACA on furlough who are mature, professional, young men and I am proud to know them. You're just a whiney child with a chip on his shoulder.

So, grab your bags Terry ... despite your blatant ignorance you probably have a college degree, so you'll find something else sooner or later if you'll check the Charlie Brown attitude at the door.

Minh

 

[pilotyip]

4 yr degree

college degree had nothing to do with being a pilot, remember you are a commodity. COMM, MEL, INST is all you need and you can fill the seat

 

[upncoming]

FINALLY!! Thanks for being the ONLY person to answer the darn question!

No, they're just the only person who gave the answer you wanted to hear. Your original question was answered long ago. Now shuttup.

Jim, if you think that only Civil Engineers who build stuff are truly engineers, well that speaks to what you don't know about engineering. The end product is the ultimate result and if you think that software isn't repeatable just because the project you work on hasn't had success, then clearly, that's just narrow-minded and silly. Engineering really refers to a PROCESS and just as those civil types have "models" that help them do their job, engineers of other disciplines (including software) have the same thing, they just use a different toolbox (so to speak). What we all have in common is that we use a PROCESS that is based on years of study and experience to affect change. It's just the material we work on that's different.

 

[smellthejeta]

Smellthejeta and Ralph,
You both start off with a good point, but Ralph you digress off into stupidland again. Smellthejeta, I know you at work, you are a nice guy, but you are just close enough yet just far enough from truly knowing what is going on. I really am not trying to pick on you here, but you do not see the whole picture. You are on the ramp so you see and hear just enough of the issues to develop a 2 cents worth, but you are missing the views that line pilots alone can understand. Especially the senior ones.

Thanks, but I don't recall ever meeting you by name. Terry, considering that I'm possibly making this industry a career, would you care to enlighten me on the issues?

I may just be a stupid ramper, but working for ACA I've seen quite a bit of the pilot side of 121. Plus I get an earful from my roommates. I think I do see a lot of the picture -- college degree, $20k in flight training (not done yet, no money), ramped on 121 and major GA ramps. Ramping at a major GA ramp, I run into a lot of furloughed airline pilots, and boy is the chit-chat enlightening.

Understand that at this point, I think management screws you over, you work long days, not much pay, scheduling screws you over, more long days, not much pay.

I see how the op runs. I see the guys on a stand-up get called from ABE to run a FRJFO to CLT, then run back to ABE. I see the guys on the RIC standup get called back so their aircraft can go to ALB while they get screwed out of some rest waiting for a new aircraft to go to RIC for the am run. I see the guys get screwed on a standup 8hr mw/ar delay, and actually make the quick turn. I see you guys sitting around that f*@#$ computer trying to get a release at 2am (hint, have it faxed over after midnight). I see scheduling and dispatch not know where their crews and planes are.

Realize that I think your job ain't that glorious, and 60+% of you think it is worth even less than it already was. I can read statistics and understand management runs an airline with op statistics in the gutter.

If i stay the civ route, I have more $$$ to spend on training, crap pay as a CFI, crap pay in training (that is, if it doesn't go PFT again) and crap pay on rsv. Terry, I make what a First year FO makes. You think I have the $$$ to continue my training? My parents don't contribute one red cent to my flying bills and my college degree. In the process, I've learned a heck of a lot. Undestand that I became hooked on aviation half way through a school that has no aviation undergraduate degree programs away from aerospace engineering. I think I understand a heck of a lot more about life and airline life than a 600 hr wonder out of Riddle whose parents bankrolled their education. I'm not selling my soul (more debt) to go work in an industry who will turn around and put you on the street in a heartbeat. Tell me to get a better paying job (tried, economy sucks) and then you'll tell me I'm ruining the industry by lining my pockets.

So, I don't understand all the issues. I think you can explain to me then why I should bust my #@$ to become a regional airline pilot and then become scheduling's b*tch?

If I'm desperate enough to go fly for an unstable regional (NOT pointing at ACA at the moment) I think I'm desperate enough to find a higher paying job and just buy my own airplane.

They'll sign anything. They have not WORKED to get here. They made all their money in another line of work (air conditioned, climate controlled jobs), so they do not care to improve this one. They have the orgasm over the uniform and airplanes and are willing to get bent over b/c they have not worked for this job a long long time. They think they love flying and being an airline pilot but what they really love is the image. Those of us who worked hard and long to get here are trying to bring things up, but are being defeated by the ever-increasing population of those who are not truly dedicated to their profession. After a few TRWs and bad winters, they'll quit...
In the process, they'll F it up for the rest of us who love it and are in it for the long haul.
Now I have to go fly. Good bye. Be safe
Terry

While I get your point, I think you mean they line their pockets so they can afford to pay for their ratings, they can afford to be a CFI, they can afford to be a 1st year FO on reserve. They still have to build the hours and pass class just like you did.

Oh, and btw, my credit sucks because of the way I paid my flying bills and went to school. I don't wish my situation on my own worst enemy, and highly suggest that those with deep pockets use them to their advantage. In fact, I am strongly looking at aviation options that will allow me to afford to fly (be it as a career or on the side) and skip the whole regional mess.

 

[acaTerry]

JetA,
I'm not in any way trying to come across to you with a "stupid ramper" outlook. In my dealings with you I've always gathered that you are a conscientious and proactive worker (if you are the guy I strongly suspect you are). You are right up there with Lt. Dan. The insinuation I was making is that a ramper can not speculate on pilot issues any more than a pilot can speculate on ramp issues. How many times do you get a pilot going nuts over a GPU? Or the bags not loaded by X time? Or that the RF100 is not handed to them yet? Does the pilot know everything that is affecting the ramp? Of course not. That was the point I was making. I don't look down on you guys. Anyone who does needs to spend some time out there themselves.

Holy cow, this thread has grown beyond anything I expected. There are a lot of people with a lot of pent up anger here. Reiterating my point is that it's about what a pilot is worth. By the majority of replies, I am groosly disappointed in the poor self-image carried by pilots today. Perhaps we have a new breed of pilot coming up. One that cares not about their profession or their own level of performance. One that will do anything to be the first kid on their block to fly a jet, even if it is for peanuts and a total lack of professional respect by management.

To these kinds of pilots....you need to remember something: You are playing with peoples lives. Keep letting work conditions and pay slip and you are eventually going to hurt someone. As long as FO's keep working 2 jobs to pay bills (which leads them to being inadequately rested), the risk for tragedy increases. A pilot carries the ability to destroy an airline by a screwup. Not everyone has money saved up from previous jobs. Be hard and demand a living can be made. Or keep making the "other guy" work a second job so he can perform at 30% performance and kill someone. Just pray to God it isn't someone you love on the other guys plane. If you don't respect yourself, do it alone. Don't drag everyone else down with you. That's it for me in this thread. As they said in the "Stewart Saves His Family" movie...take what you like and leave th rest.

 

[CLCAP]

Pilots - like autoworkers or any other profession are just numbers to management (easily replaceble numbers). You can claim all you want about your skill, responsibility for lives etc - you're still just a number that can be replaced at a moments notice since there are countless people with "enough" skill and wilingness to do your job for next to nothing.

I for one can't blame management - their objective is to show profits (seems like - lately - they are not too good at that) and one aspect is keeping cost low = having the lowest salary a certain workgroup (yes pilots too) will accept and work for. Unfortunately that number - as far as pilots are concerned is quite low.

The ONLY reason salaries at major carriers are good are the unions past negotiations....has NOTHING to do with the "quality" or "skill" of their workforce. I bet most airline execs would LOVE to transfer all their heavy jets to ther commuters and have them flown for next to nothing - and the only thing standing in their way are the unions.

Your original question can very easily be answered by pretending that you're a CEO for a commuter - and your main goal is to make the most profit you can - what would YOU do?

--You never get paid what you're worth - always what you negotiate.--

 

[100LL... Again!]

ACA Terry-

I for one don't get all bent out of shape about playing intellectual second-fiddle to a keyboard-pounder. After all I'm just a bus driver.

Don't take this too personal, but you REALLY slammed that "poor, uniformed" CFI, so I'm going to let you pick on someone your own size. This may sting a little, but fair is fair. He was only voicing an opinion, you opened up with both barrels.


Your scathing request for information about aircraft specific questions is invalid. These same questions could not be answered reliably by anyone who has not been through systems school for that aircraft. Even a 20,000 hr Whale Captain. You and I both know this,so I'm gonna push the snow-job button here.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me the psi for the center pumps on a 727? Why is the pressure different than the wing tank pumps. Don't know? Pity.


"Piloting an advanced aircraft while defying gravity and in weather that is trying its darndest to forcefully eject you from its element is a little more demanding."

Please, SPARE us. At 4500 hours, you are hardly the salty old dog you make yourself out to be. Yeah, we get our thunderstorm and ice seasons, but most flights are boringly routine. If in your experience, however, each flight is as absolutely pregnant with adventure and peril as you portray, I am envious of your swashbuckling lifestyle. Defying gravity - how uttery poetic.
"ACA 1232, cleared to defy gravity, runway 30"


"Tell me about ACARS, AFIS, EFIS EICAS"

B.S. Alarm goes off again. This comes across as "You'll understand when you are older." ACARS? Child's play - simpler than any PDA. EFIS/EICAS? Come, now. Mastering a programming language makes operating these boxes seem like a Fischer-Price toy. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The complexity of rules involved in programming DWARFS the operating rules for these boxes.


"Let's take a CRJ off at ROA with a deferred APU in icing conditions and set up the bleeds correctly so that we neither crash into a mountain.."

I had no idea that thing was such a dog!


THE TRUTH - It takes lots of brainpower to be a good programmer. Mostly it takes judgement to be a good pilot.

Pilots are very impressed with themselves, which is good, because few others are.

Oh, and the shortage of doctors and lawyers? If pilots had to meet the academic challenges presented to doctors and lawyers, there WOULD be a pilot shortage. A really big shortage. And we would all be paid what we are 'worth'. (Those of us who made the cut, such as Mr. ACA and perhaps myself.)

The standards are pretty low, really. Anyone who says otherwise is denying reality.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Wow - I should have kept reading. The later posts were even better.

ACATerry - Regardless of your knowledge or skill, you are coming off like an incredibly insecure playground bully.

Know what? I've busted my b-lls to get ahead in this business, and never made much, but I'd almost take a 10% pay cut just to piss of the whiners.

If I gotta work for $25K for a few more years, so be it, I'm gonna fly.

This is where someone will vilify me for 'taking the bar down a notch'.

Here's a REALLY radical thought. If I want the job badly enough to work for so little, maybe I deserve it more than someone who is in it for the money. Go program computers and buy yourself a Cessna if you don't like it. If that don't get me flamed, nothing will.

 

[smellthejeta]

Here's a REALLY radical thought. If I want the job badly enough to work for so little, maybe I deserve it more than someone who is in it for the money. Go program computers and buy yourself a Cessna if you don't like it. If that don't get me flamed, nothing will.

Looking at ACATerry's registration date and assuming 1000 flying hours per year, I think he's closer to 6,000 hours than the 4500 in his profile.

100LL, the attitude I don't understand is that some pilots seem to wear the "I fly a jet for peanuts" badge with pride. Mind you, I've sunk $20k into this crap already and have a few hours under my belt and am looking at careers in this industry, so it's not like I have no place from which to voice my viewpoint..

I got school loans and cc bills to pay. Why would I want to be a pilot when I'm looking forward to paying all those bills on $25/yer for the first few years? I PITY the people who think that flying jets for $25k/yr is the greatest thing in the world.

I don't think these jobs are a matter of "deserving" them. If all that I have to look forward to is crap pay, why shouldn't I be a programmer and buy a C172?

In fact, I may very well be an ATC guy, make $130k/yr, be home on a fixed basis and by an SR22. If one feels they deserve a job flying because they'll do it for $25/yr, so be it for them being shortsighted. I truly wish they'd have some self-respect.