I Want to Throw Up...

[captnmayday]

well ...

I left a 80K s/w engineering job to fly for 9K in the late 90s and I am still not where I want to be in aviation; However I will not trade aviation for anything else and even if I loose my medical or my job, the office world is the last place I will look for work.

It is all about the personality ... I knew I had to fly since I was 9 but life took its path and I wasted 9 years in the S/W business (and I was good at it too). I will not repeat that but that is just because I know FLYING is Me ... If you do it for the money, image or the chicks you will be disappointed
My 2 cents

 

[Kingairrick]

An idea

Lets give acaterry an FMS that functions perfectly, except....NO SOFTWARE installed. He gets 1 year to work on the code, then he has to fly IFR using only the fms for nav through the rockies at 9500 ft.

Think he'd understand then?

I've never written code, but consider myself pretty computer literate. The software that operates my phone is amazing to me. The patience required to write such stuff is impresssive.

Bottom line is, I'd trust my life to a pilot who had only been flying for 1 year, with a couple hundred hours, in equipment he was qualified in.... I wouldn't fly with that same guy if the aircraft we were flying in required a complex software program to operate (as most do,) and I knew that the programmer who wrote the code was in the business for only 1 year.

Anyone feel the same?

 

[bigD]

Heh - I wouldn't trust my life to a complex software program, regardless of the experience of the programmers.

No complex piece of software is perfect. Ever. Hopefully this principle will keep pilots from losing their jobs to automation anytime in the near future!

 

[Ralph]

Definately, in fact I wonder how much of the cost for equipment like a garmin 430 is software realted. I would bet that most of those development costs are software realted.

And no, I would not trust any navigation or systems unit in an aircraft made by an entry level programmer. Not for a second!

 

[DAL Hopeful]

Gosh people,
get on with it. electric people with big egos who would die in a week without their computers. i wish y2k did what everyone thought it would.

 

[acaTerry]

100LL Again,
Look at the date of registartion, I am no longer at 4500 hours, but that is not the issue.

Your question...just what are you asking me? The psi for the fuel heater pump assembly, fuel pump-filter and FCU or what? This thing has 8 pumps. The two-stage engine driven pump is located on the fwd right side of the accessory section....blah blah blah (don't underestimate me). No matter, playing trivia with you is not the point. The point by asking that guy about the CRJ was to show him his arrogance. Saying that he can train a zero hour pilot to be an airline ready pilot in 6 months was nothing short of ignorant. Those questions were not to humiliate him, just to show him that as a 700 hour CFI , he had no place to make claims he knew nothing about.

Yes, the CRJ IS a dog. That's the joke CRJ = Climb Restricted Jet.

I am not saying that this job is a death defying trap, Einstein. I am saying that it has more serious and time-conscious consequences than programming does, generally speaking. Or perhaps you never got to spend thousands of hours in old rattly turboprops at altitudes where the weather is with you, not beneath you. Or perhaps from your FE panel (I make this assumption on your technical question on the 27) you forgot what it is like. Point is, pilots deserve better than they get. This post was about just that. All you tech kings, I'm sorry if I hurt your little feelings. But having some (not masterful) experience in C, C++ and C# programming I must say that I was more challenged and feel more responsibility as a pilot. Wipe your tears, it is not necessarily against you guys. It's against the jellyfish who will do nothing to improve things. Vote yes to anything. Just give me a jet, I'll be your beeyatch.
You CFI's: no looking down on you here. You guys are earning every darn penny. You are invaluable to this industy, especially in a "future safety of flight" sense. Don't feel that anyone thinks you are lowly or anything. Just please try to keep a zipper on it until you have enough knowledge and experience to give yuor 2 cents on airline issues. And I hope you all make it. But please understand that at 700 hours, as an example, you can't go broadcasting opinions as fact on things you have not experienced yet.
All in all, WILL YOU ALL QUIT CRYING? I raised a valid point: pilots deserve better than they get. If you don't think so, GTF out of the planes and open them up to someone who will make this job liveable again. If you think pilots are getting what they deserve or that there is simply no way to improve it, then you are part of the problem. Show some self respect.

 

[8HourPilot]

So if you fly the airbus, what does that make you....a programmer or a pilot?

Terry, Dude, you make a great point......

 

[acaTerry]

Now THAT'S a good question!!!! I guess both. Now I want 2 paychecks!! In any case, I don't want the bus. I know practically nothing about the things, but from the guys who fly them, they're too unpredictable. But again, I really don't know enough about them to even have an opinion....

 

[climbhappy]

the danger of being misled

if you don't think so, GTF out ..............

AcaTerry,

You just told CFIs to keep a zipper on it til they gey they're type. It really sounds like you mean...until they've flown the line with a bunch of captains with bad attitutudes who spout negative crap about the rampers, this plane, scheduling, ops etc.

and if if we don't agree, open them as you put to someone who will make them liveable again. Who? the PFters

I see two things going on. The demise of Alpa and the need for companies like ACA to go it alone.

if you'll recall in the eighties when the auto industry was in the toilet, union membership declined and was nonexistent.
Pilots will finally wake up and see that Alpa does nothing for them at the regional level. Alpa is the reason the jobs were lost. the majors let it get out of hand. Profit sharing would be a much better way to insure the cyclical nature of this business doesn't let costs get out of hand.

An analyst said during US airways troubles, "Anytime you have a guy with a part time job making six fugures, you're going to have problems.

insults won't cut it. telling CFis to shutup won't cut it. they're entitled to their opinion. and suggesting that leaving the business will make it liveable again is wayout.

Please tell me why I'm wrong

 

[acaTerry]

I did not tell CFI's to keep a zipper on it until they had a type. I said that until they really know what they are talking about, that they should not make claims that they can not back. Such as being able to turn a zero hour student into a proficient airline pilot in 6 months. I know there are ab-initio schools, such as Lufthansa that do this, but they are in a whole different league than our U.S. schools. I know because I have taught at LFT and at U.S. ab-initio schools. The selection process as LFT is much more stringent than our schools, and generally speaking the German kids are better disciplined for this hardcore approach than the average U.S. student (who, by the way, usually prefers the term "customer" rather than student).
No one can argue the importance of a good CFI. But at the same time, a good CFI knows to keep their mouth closed until they KNOW what they are talking about. Opinions aside, how can a CFI make a ridiculous claim on the ability to teach something that they themself have never done? This is where I was after the 700 hour guy. Not because he had 700 hours, but because he was so arrogant in his claim to be able to train someone to a level that he himself is not able to do either. I'll bet he is a good CFI. But he needed to know that his claim was unfounded.
So you see, I have nothing against CFIs. I've given thousands of hours of dual given myself and know firsthand the things they deal with. In fact, I just reinstated this past weekend. Did I just go and do it myself? No way, I took a CFI. And I listened to him. (What is more dangerous than an airline pilot in a light plane?)

Anyway, gotta go. No malice toward CFI's, just the bigmouths who broadcast about things they don't know about.

 

[climbhappy]

acaterry... appreciate your candor

okay, so you don't hate CFIs. i was mistkaken.

I agree i am underpaid. How do we get wages up. It won't happen by condemning other pilot groups. No the real problem is ALPA, and the fact unions have little or no effect during troubled economic times. Just ask Teamsters brothers in the 80s.

So here in the 00s, ALPA is doing nothing for regional pilots. In fact they signed off on MEsa's deal. They almost cost 150 CCAir guys their job. Alpa, I guess helped get them their job back. Hurrah! so why did they sign off on JOs deal. why did they approve last weeks' 25 CRJ 700.

PLease comment on the feasibility of ACA going it alone under their own brand.

Could it fly, and if no why? thanks for your time...

 

[treetopflyer]

patience grasshopper,

soon enough the announcements will come.

 

[acaTerry]

How do we get wages up. It won't happen by condemning other pilot groups.

Absolutely. And there is too much of this going on. Worse yet, the very people who are doing this are guilty of doing the same darn thing. And by saying that pilots are not deserving of a better deal because of this or because of that is what makes it so easy to bend us over. Yet the same people who say what is in the last sentence are the same ones who blast away at another airlines pilot group. It's either put up or shut up, and nobody will put up. They'll just try and justify their reasons for accepting crap. "I signed it because______. ", or "We're not worth more, supply and demand". And in the next breath...."THANKS XYZ PILOTS! YOU $UCK!!". Sorry, can't have it both ways folks.

the real problem is ALPA, and the fact unions have little or no effect during troubled economic times.

Again, you are correct! ALPO needs to have a schism. A "big" ALPA that deals with majors and a "less big" one that deals with regionals. A mediation division of nonpartials can settle disputes within. Either way, ALPA gets it's 2% so it is funded. Hey, maybe 3.5% for regionals to close the gap in monetary difference.
And, how about a public information campaign in TV commercials to correct the ignorance that breeds by the news. The public is GROSSLY misinformed about airline pilots. ALPA has the money to do this. Why not do it? Think of how public perceptions would change during strikes if the public knew that the "overpaid" jet FO is making less than $20,000. And that he is in training for 2 or 3 months making zero dollars and zero cents. Fewer people would be bitching at you about your "extravegant" pay and more people would be more sympathetic during strikes.
But I don't think ole Duane is too concerned withthat right now. In the meantime, we continue to be our own worst enemy.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's the problem - Flying, in my OPINION is an art as well as a job.

I am one of those 'Aviation Geeks' who spend far more than the normal amount of time honing my craft. I am unable to view it in simple economic terms.

If you want my entirely ridiculous opinion, those of us who dedicate this much energy to a profession might even 'deserve'
(I HATE that word) more pay than the loudest complainers. How 'bout them apples?

The point is that you can talk until you are blue in the face about what others 'should' be doing to keep the bar up. Economic forces are against us. I have accepted this reality, and therefore have made some peace with it. If I want to fly, I will have to compete for jobs.

On the college degree issue: Coming up with a weed-out that is somewhat arbitrary like this WILL remove a lot of people from the game, but not ccording to ability.

What if pilot A has a 4-year history degree, and pilot B has a 2-year aviation degree. Does the aviation focus trump the other pilot's intimate knowledge of medieval architecture?

I have a two-year degree. I could not afford any more. Period. It took years to pay off the 2-year plus flight training.

Should I be excluded on the basis of this?

We ALL KNOW that coasting through college is entirely possible, especially in some disciplines. This makes it again a rich man's job.

Many of us have put in way more effort than your average 'rich brat'.

Are you really ready to throw me and others like me out of the profession for our lack of finances?

Here's a novel idea:

Let's make ALL checkrides - General Av., 135, airline etc.,
really demanding. Brain-draining interview orals. Sim rides from he11. NOW we have weed-out that we can all live with.
So long rich kids - ratings you can buy. Skill comes from the inside.

Well, I'm off to the art studio now (the airport).


ACATerry: My point still is that challenging someone over aircraft specific knowledge is not really valid. He could take a two-week systems course and answer those questions, with nothing more than average effort. besides, I've seem new-hires with better systems knowledge than some line captains. Motivation and effort being the main reason.

I'm still not buying the rank-pulling attempt. I've got enough experience to know what the job entails.

If you want to illustrate someone's lack of knowledge over general issues, try these:

1. How many miles can you be past the 10-mile outbound limit on a PT before you are in trouble?

2. What is a Final Approach Point and where is it found?

3. You are flying an approach to a mountainous airport in the dead of winter. You should be especially concerned about obstacle clearance at: Why?
a. at MDA
b. on the procedure turn

The bigger question: Does knowing this crap even matter? I wish it did. Your CRJ fuel-pump question - is not knowing it gonna get ya in an accident? Probably not.


The airlines have proven that barely competent 600hr pilots can be hired and succesfully upgraded one year later with no change in accident rates. (Bust rates are probably higher on the checkride.)

As much as I hate to admit it, the era of the 'Glorified Bus Driver' is upon us.

To paraphrase:
The profession is dead. Long live the profession.

 

[acaTerry]

The airlines have proven that barely competent 600hr pilots can be hired and succesfully upgraded one year later with no change in accident rates. (Bust rates are probably higher on the checkride.)

Just sat through an FAA safety seminar (Runway Safety) recently. According to NTSB data, the accident rate HAS risen. Remember, what defines an accident and an incident is not limited to the type of injury. While fatals have been steady or even decreasing, the accident/incident rate has risen.

As much as I hate to admit it, the era of the 'Glorified Bus Driver' is upon us.

Perhaps its already here....

I'm not debating with you the validity of technical question duels. I was trying to make a point to the guy about his claim of ability to make someone airline proficient in 6 months. How can someone who knows nothing about this biz make such a claim? So I challenged him and he had no response. Just what I expected. The point was not to embarrass him, but t opoint out to him that his head was a little too big. (Imagine that--a pilot with a big head )

What if pilot A has a 4-year history degree, and pilot B has a 2-year aviation degree. Does the aviation focus trump the other pilot's intimate knowledge of medieval architecture?

I don't care if the guy with a 2 year degree has it in Phy Ed. The fact is that having a college degree does not make you any smarter than anyone else. I have a 4 year degree and I am no smarter than the average Joe. But all the airlines get from this is that you did something that took a long time and finished it. Believe me, some real rocks have got masters degrees. Look around on this board full of college educated individuals: can't even tell the difference between "their" and "there". How are we supposed to convince the public that we are professionals with a skill and that we are in a "high thinking" job when we spell at a 5th-grade level?
Point is, the college degree has failed here. Today, college is not much more than sitting through 2 years of core curriculum on politcal correctness classes and Partying 101, 102, 205 and 225. Then in the last 2 years you get some specialty for your major. Your 2 year degree in aviation should count more, but to some airlines it doesn't. Is it fair? No, not really. But it does do some weeding. Couldn't afford more? They will not be so sympathetic. I did 8 years in the USMC as a grunt to get through college. There is a way to finish, somehow. I'm not trying to sound hard here, but having come up from a dirt poor beginning and having made it, I believe that anyone can do it. But they have to WANT it bad enough to make it happen, even if it takes a long time and a lot of sacrafice. And then because they will have worked so hard to obtain it, they will PROTECT it from those who waltzed in from an easy ride and are willing to let it fall apart.

You and I seem to be of the same breed. The guys who were looking at planes as soon as we could hold our heads up. So you know how it is to want to fly. It looks like you've had some trouble getting where you are and you got to it. So perhaps you can understand the point of this whole thread alittle better now. It's not a pilot-vs. programmer issue. It's about the programmer "types" in the pilot ranks who come into this biz with less of a struggle and are willing to let it fall apart by agreeing to everything. "Just let me fly my jet, I'll do anything to anyone". This is why it's falling apart. Earning = Deserving. There are fewer and fewer people who have "earned" this job. But there are plenty who "paid" for it. Eevryone "paid" for it. Paying is a monetary issue. EVERYONE paid. Not so many have EARNED it.

Military guys earned it. Some flew, some slugged through mud. But either way, they put their lives on hold spending moths or even years away from home to save up enough to get here.
Box haulers flew alone at night in IFR through mountains and such with no one to count on but themselves. They earned it.
Flight Instructors spent many hundreds if not thousands of hours in beat up old Cessnas and Pipers cramped up with sweaty, smelly students who can ruin your career. 12 hour and longer days cleaning toilets between flights, washing planes, humping hose. They earned it.
Big name flight school graduates? Depends. Did they study and train hard or did they pull the customer card all the way through? Did daddy pay for it all or did they get a job to pull their end of the log? Did they instruct long enough after training to feel a hard want for the airline job or did they "expect" placement?
Now we have the guy who went straight out of college into a high paying (greater than $30,000) job. They were there a few years, made a lot of money. Next step--here is a big sum of money. Make me an airline pilot. Now.
So they get to the airlines, they have all the ratings. But they neither
a)got any REAL experience (this is not a product of flight hours BTW) nor
b) WORKED, STRUGGLED enough to demand a good end to it.
So what we have are pilots who feel they are not worth enough to demand better. In other words, they don't deserve it.
This is what this thread is all about. I don't see how anyone can disagree about this.

 

[Ralph]

So how long would you need to fly at Frontier before you make 38K a year?

ACAIknoweverythingIamaflyinggodbeholdmeinallofmygloryandbowyourworthlesscfiheadbeforemethatImighthavemercyonyouandalsoIhavenosenseofhumorsodonteventry

here is an interesting job for you, perhaps you can fix those contracts!

http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob...,1862,1863&lid=&fn=&q=atlantic+coast+airlines

US-CO-Denver-Database Administrator/Developer II :.

Status: Full Time, Employee Salary: from USD 38,397.00 per year Reference Code: 5060
Shift: First Shift (Day)
Job Location: Denver 80249

RESPONSIBILITIES:
The Database Administrator will be responsible for the overall maintenance, administration and health of Frontier’s mission critical Microsoft SQL Servers and Databases. This includes security policies, backups, importing/exporting data to other systems, reporting and client support.

· Administer Microsoft SQL Server (day-to-day maintenance and troubleshooting) meeting database uptime goals

· Create databases, triggers, queries and reports

· Keep SQL Servers current with appropriate service packs and hot fixes.

· Develop, implement and maintain policies and procedures to ensure data security and integrity

· Insure adequate backup/restore and disaster recovery procedures are in place

· Provide reports and query tools to end users

· Serve as backup for Oracle DBA

· Resolves distributed data issues: performance, capacity, replication


ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS:

Microsoft SQL Server day-to-day maintenance (50%)
End user support. (20%)
Documentation. (10%)
Backups (10%)
Oracle Support (10%)


QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS:

· Bachelor’s degree or equivalent work experience
· 3-5 years SQL Server Administrator
· Microsoft certification required
· Oracle experience required
· Experience with .NET helpful

Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities:
Expertise with relational databases
Expertise with Structured Query Language (SQL)
Expertise with database report tools such as Crystal, VB and Access.


WORKING CONDITIONS:
· Equipment- Servers, PC’s and Printers
· Work Environment – Mostly in Corporate headquarters.
· Physical Effort – Light physical effort required by handling objects up to 20 pounds occasionally and/or up to 10 pounds frequently.

HOW TO APPLY:

Qualified candidates need to e-mail their cover letter, resumem, and salary requirements to [email protected] Reference Job Code 5060

Frontier Airlines, Inc. FAX: (720) 374-8002
Frontier Center One Email: [email protected]
Attn: Human Resources
Denver, CO 80249

 

[100LL... Again!]

OK ACATerry, maybe I'm a sucker for flattery, but ya won me over on that one.

I guess the only difference between us is that I'm further along the curve of complete, abject resignation.

Fatalistic Existentialism and Aviation - a match made in heaven.

I know I am in the minority, but I cannot help repeating that a toughening of standards would fix a lot of this situation.

What if I fail to make the grade? Well, then at least his way I deserve to be riding the couch. Knowing that I was a washout can be tougher on the ego, but I think over the long run, easier to make your peace with it.

And and ATP to be a 121 FO PERIOD. Betcha less than 1% of the rich kids can ab-initio their way that far, as opposed to 400-500 hours.

Bring on the standards!


[/rant off]

 

[acaTerry]

ACAIknoweverythingIamaflyinggodbeholdmeinallofmygl oryandbowyourworthlesscfiheadbeforemethatImighthav emercyonyouandalsoIhavenosenseofhumorsodonteventry

I'm glad you see it my way Ralph. 'Bout time you recognize that.

The rest of your post........Blue Ridge is standing by for the point.....


Bring on the standards

I'm with you. Raise the bar to get there, and you'll attract the right kind of people. The ones who will protect what they worked so hard to get.

OK everybody. I need 2 more replies to make 100. Don't let me down.

 

[100LL... Again!]

It appears we have a consensus. raising standard will improve the situation noticeably.

I think an ATP for FO's is reasonable. I am NOT saying lower time pilots could not do the job. Many have proven to be excellent.

Here is my reasoning.

1) It prevents rich kids from buying their way to a 500hr job. VERY few can buy their way to 1500 hrs. Not enought to be a threat to pilot pay as a whole (by diluting the pool).

2) It gives newer pilots the time to develop their skills and become a more well-rounded aviator, through whatever means they choose. If you know you can't get a quickie airline job at 500 hours, you may as well settle in and spend the energy on building REAL experience, rather then the hollow shell of experience that is gained by building hours as rapidly as possible.

Gotta go - continued later

 

[JimNtexas]

So how long would you need to fly at Frontier before you make 38K a year?
...
here is an interesting job for you, perhaps you can fix those contracts!

http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob...+coast+airlines

US-CO-Denver-Database Administrator/Developer II :.

Ralph, my first reaction to that post was that 38K was insultingly low for a person with the desired qualifications. On reflection, I realized that the low pay may well be offset by the possiblity of working in an "airline" work enviroment, rather than than the more demanding standards of the software industry.