I need advice on steps to create a 135 operation

[philo beddoe]

To correct the above post, the ATP is only required if the the A/C is over 12,500 or is jet powered.

135 with light twins only requires a coommercial cert.

Also check out Advisory circular 120-49(?) that outlines the certification process.

You may also want to buy a copy of order 8400 from the govt printing office. Around $70. It outlines lots of things the FAA will be looking for during certification. You can also get it online, but it is hundreds of pages.

 

[mattpilot]

Philo, you sure?

135.243 Pilot in Command Qualifications.

(a) no person may serve ...yada yada yada.....
(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a pax config of 10 seats or more, OR of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds a ATP rating .. yada yada yada

If ye wants to make any money at all, it will most likely be a commuter operation (5 round trips or more per week) its defined in 119.1 .

 

[Kingairrick]

My source is my aircraft log books and the bills I pay to fly one full time.

 

[philo beddoe]

Corrected Post:

I see that you did catch the word "commuter", but the vast majority of small 135 operators are on-demand only.

Scheduled cargo may be done without complying with the commuter provisions.

The FAA is trying to get all commuter operations under 121.

 

[philo beddoe]

Also, it is hard to imagine piston-twin commuter service being viable in anything but a carribean or arctic tundra market.

 

[mattpilot]

i guess we settled that

Anyway, since you guys are here, mind if i ask a question? I've been wondering about the meaning of TurboJet in part 119/135. Does that include a TurboProp, or just the TurboJet and TurboFan (ei. prop-less engines) ?

 

[ThomasR]

135 Biz

I have worked for several 135 operations and they were all sole proprietorships. The owners all had some things in common, they were absolute workaholics; they started with one aircraft and built the business as their customer base grew; they had autocratic management styles (a detriment as the company gets larger); they seemed never satisified always striving for more; they were highly competative.

Some businesses seem to fall together while others need a great deal of advertising. If you are in an area of high demand for air services go for it but if you have to create demand you might want to reconsider. Whatever you do rest assured that once someone else sees good results from what you accomplish they will become your competition. And to keep your share of the market will keep you awake at night working insane hours during the day. Money won't seem so important because no matter how much you make you won't have time to spend it; you might have to hire somebody to do that for you.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think what this all comes down to is a great deal of work for a small likelihood of success. Normally, this would only be typical of starting a business, but what makes this different is the kind of specialized service this entails, and the many limits imposed by the FAA.

I understand that you love to fly. That's great. Why not use your smarts to allow yourself to fly on your own, in your own plane, just for yourself under part 91? In other words, why commit yourself to something where you currently have no background or experience? If, for instance, your father had run a successful operation for many years, had generated a great relationship with the feds, built a base of many repeat customers, and you had spent several years in a hands-on capacity as one of his pilots, then in that case I'd say your dream makes sense.

Lacking that scenario, you face a far greater chance of ending up at eighth and main than any of us would like to imagine. You're still in college. Why not use this golden opportunity to achieve a solid income that can give you a better basis for undertaking a chancey business venture?

 

[philo beddoe]

Matt, to answer your question:

Sometimes turboprops are grouped with jets, where a reg addresses turbine powered aircraft.

Sometimes the reg groups by prop vs jet, lumping t-props with recips.

Buncha different cases.

Each one seems to have its own quirks.

Some things that can be affected by A/C type:

CVR requirements
Flt Data Rec req's
Performance req's
Wx Radar req's
Maintenance, even
Commuter vs on-demand

This way lies madness.

 

[jshaff]

I think I am gaining a little bit of insight here. I am starting to put together a "plan-of-attack". My first item on the list of things to do is, create a business model and do a cost analysis. I know there is a need for this service in my area and as of now, there are no providers. (First of all, I need to find out why there are currently no providers.)

I have decided that a single pilot operation is the way to go. I have no intentions of starting big. I have to learn to crawl... as they say. So, considering I want to start a single pilot operation with an IFR certificate, two small planes (say... caravans), how much start up money will I need? I know there is no way of knowing exactly how much I will need, but at this point I don't even know a ballpark figure.

And a second question: how much time does each of the phases take? ie preapplication, formal application, Document Compliance, Demonstration and Inspection, and Certification
I would like to get a rough estimate. Are we talking several years? I expect this to be the case.

-jshaff

 

[mattpilot]

i have a feeling someone will stomp on me again, but anyhow :

- Since your doing a single pilot operation, you have no need for 2 planes. Afterall, you can't fly both planes at the same time, and everytime a plane is not flying, your "loosing" money - or so they say . Also, you only need a backup plane when your doing tightly spaced scheduled service, which i doubt you will be able to do with the 'hour regulations' for one pilot. If you do get maintence problems that can't be fixed once the next flight is due, you can also always 'contract out' the work, or "outsource it" as it is known to another pilot on the field. I'm sure someone else can elaborate on the complications of this.

- Cost of plane - I'm assuming you will lease/purchase a plane and figure in the monthly payment into the operating cost ? Seems like the smart thing to do unless you have an extra million The Smaller 8 seat caravan 675 (9 actually, since you can let one person seat on co-pilot seat since its a small plane), costs 1650000 USD NEW. That is, if you want it new. Usually, when buying a plane you pay down 10-20% and got the rest on a lease. I'm gonna assume your not gonna have a problem finding a used caravan for 1mil in good conditions, so say 150k startup cost right there.

- as for time to certification - i've been told a minimum of 6 months after applying but i'm sure the guys on this forum have first hand experience and know better.


Now i got a question - what region are you planning on doing something? Is it Bush or regular? You trying to do scheduled or on-demand?

 

[jshaff]

mattpilot- Thanks for the info. What is the difference between a Single pilot operation and a Single PIC operation? Is there a big difference regulatory wise?

I do not know what will fit the situation best, (on-demand or scheduled) and I am sending out surveys to different companies right now to find out what they desire. I will try to accomidate my customers as best I can. I plan on offering my services to local corporations.

-jshaff

 

[mattpilot]

local corps. as in Cargo or pax?


I guess what you could do is go to Travel agencys and tell them your planning on doing this route and ask if there is any demand. Then you could work out something with them where they would hire you to fly a group back and forth. This would be an "on-demand" operation. A scheduled operation is where you publish your routes and times a significant time before you do it. Like Delta/AA/United etc... You can book a flight in advance. Then, if you make more than 5 round trips a week, you become a commuter operation. <- this adds another layer of regulations.

By the brief description you gave, i'm guessing you're gonna do On-demand stuff. Those corps. are gonna basically ask you to fly a certain route at a certain time, correct? With this type of operation your gonna have the least problems/regulations.


Difference between Single Pilot operation and a single PIC operation? Big difference. Once you got more than one pilot in your roster, you will need additional staff, like Director of Operations, Chief Pilot & Maintence director. One person can fulfill multiple roles, but i guess he will then demand a nice salary too . Now a Single PIC operation is where only one pilot is on the plane. Basically, you can't have more than 10 seats, the airplane type-certification can't require more than 1 pilot, or you can't operate single pilot in IFR conditions, UNLESS you got an approved auto-pilot for IFR conditions, then you may operate under IFR single pilot. I do believe the caravan has a very good auto-pilot.

 

[mattpilot]

just found this gem on ANN:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=1d8aacc9-b87b-482c-8b61-9fb298b9ca61&#d

90G's.. pay 20% down and its yours.... Of course it can only hold 4 pax + 1 in co-pilot seat and it isn't as 'roomy' as a caravan, but it makes for a good starter aircraft.

If you tell us what kind of operation your planning on doing - what payload requirements (pax or cargo & weight), then we could help you find a good aircraft. Finding the right aircraft for your operation is key to success. This aircraft's operating cost is about half of a caravan, but it also goes 1/3 slower. Tell us as much as you want to share about your plan and tell us what kind of people you want to cater too. All helps in picking the right aircraft. Geographic region would also help.


Btw, small clarification from above post: when i said 'scheduled service' don't confuse it with 121 operations. As long as you don't fly a jet or don't have an aircraft with more than 9 pax seats, you can do scheduled operations under 135. Again, it would help if we knew what you were planning on doing.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/acsales/specs76seneca.html / http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/acsales/76seneca.html

Cheap Seneca, but in a little rougher condition than the cessna posted above. I have been eyeing it for my multi training when I get that far.

 

[mattpilot]

just noticed in the link that I posted that this aircraft has no Auto-pilot. So you couldn't use it for Single Pilot IFR operations. This is stuff you would have to look out for when choosing a plane.

Oh, and another thing to consider is the look of an aircraft - as a passenger i wouldn't be to fond of the burgundy color as an interior hehe

 

[philo beddoe]

Matt - I hope you weren't referring to me as jumping on you.
Didn;t intend to, I just love a good debate.

To clarify the single pilot / single pic issue:


Single pilot operator: One pilot only is authorized to do ANY operations. No SIC's are alowed, and no other PIC's. I am 90% sure that you can't have a backup plane on the certificate either.


Single PIC: This allows only one PIC, but up to three SIC's. This is primarily geared toward large turboprop or jet aircraft that require a crew of two. In this instance, no management personnel are required either. It is pretty much like the sinle pilot, except for the three SIC's. The certification process is streamlined, and many hoops can be bypassed.

Basic 135: This certificate allows up to five pilots (including the chief) and five aircraft. There may be PIC's and SIC's. This is the first certification level that requires management personnel; Dir. of Operations, Chief Pilot, Dir. of Maint.
However, you may combine two of the positions, i.e. Do and CP are the same guy, or DO and DM, etc.

Full 135: You may not combine management personnel here. This is essentially an unlimited certificate. As many airplanes and pilots as your POI will approve.

When you get really big, the FAA may require you to have assistant chief pilots, or chiefs for a particular fleet of aircraft. I believe that some airlines work it that way.


I don't think that the single PIC cert will do much for you, unless you are planning on a big airplane.

Continued on next post...

 

[philo beddoe]

As to the timetable? It will depend on a few things.


1) Your level of preparation and knowledge. As the FAA might say, they are not your editorial staff. If you continue to submit partially complete paperwork, you are going to get pushed to the back burner. Definitely be studied up.

2) FAA workload. Existing certificate holders take priority. If your FSDO is understaffed, expect it to take a while.

3) Your ability to get things done. How fast can you read an advisory circular and modify your manual? How fast can you write policy? Do you understand the intent of the FARs well enough to effectively write SOP without constant checking with the FAA?

Previous 135 or 121 experience is very valuable here, since you understand the operational aspects involved.

Bottom line, if you go in prepared and knowledgeable, you will get done relatively soon.

Go in poorly prepared, it could take years.


To do a single pilot operator with a simple aircraft could take as little as 6 months. Consider hiring a consultant to help you. It costs some bucks, but you will be done MUCH sooner.

The downside of consultants? The FAA will want to make sure that you are not trying to buy your way to certification. They may dig extra deep to make sure you understand your own books, since you did not personally develop them.

Continued...

 

[philo beddoe]

Suggested steps:


1) Get a single pilot operation going right away. You will not need a training program, or a general operations manual.

2) While you rake in the millions, develop your manuals. Find qualified people to staff the positions.

3) Apply to upgrade your operation to Basic 135. Pass go, collect $200.

Congratulations, you are ready to take on Jetblue.

 

[JAFI]

Try these web sites for info on how to set up a 135 operation


http://www.alaska.faa.gov/jnufsdo/





http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/atl/n135toc.htm

JAFI