capt. megadeth
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I got canned!!!
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capt. megadeth
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blueridge71
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Alright, I will try and go in order here.
First off, as to why I was "let go".
The answer was left unclear. I was given no warning, never got written up, etc. I will first go through what was said and then I will go on to speculate as to the real reasoning.
What I was told was that it was brought to my boss's attention that there was a degredation in my performance. Specifically, that day. (To break it down, we had a team approach to instructing. Anyone instructor could work with the student on any day. So, they keep records of what the previous instructor did the lesson before so the next instructor had some place to base the student's next lesson on.) That day, I was working with a student who was at the end of getting the solo requirements met and was beginning on prepping for the checkride. Our director of operations came to me and told me to make sure I had a plan for the student because he had already called and wanted to cancel. I was sitting at the lunch table at the time and I told I already had a plan for him and we were good to go. So the student comes in and I told him to get weather and tell me whether or not we would be able to fly or not. (I already knew we were going to fly but I wanted to test his decision making.) So he got on the phone and I went out and had a smoke. Halfway through the smoke the Director of Ops takes a look out the door, at me, and then goes back inside. I finish the smoke and go back in and have a very productive lesson with the student. We even had to change our flight up a little bit to avoid some convective cells and thunderstorms. Good experience for a private student. To shorten the story, the Vice President didn't like the way I handled that situation, he felt I didn't get a plan ready when the Director of Ops specficially told me to, and he took me going out to have a smoke as unacceptable because the student was sitting there waiting for me, which as I just stated was not the case, the student was given a task that didn't require my being there at the time. Those events told the Vice President that I had a problem engaging the client and that I couldn't possilbly stay an employee there.
If you ask me that was not enough reason for me to get canned without warning. So, I can only assume that there is more behind it than I was actually let on to.
Now here's what I think.
About 4 months ago, they cleaned shop because of dwindling sales. They fired the Sales Director and Director of Operations and brought in 2 new guys to revamp the place. As of right now, the Vice President of the Company is the acting School Director while the new Sales Director and Director of Ops are in training. The new Director of Operations is the very much the best friend to the management side of the company rather than the friend of the employee side. With the dwindling sales of the company, what students we do have in daily, the instructors are heavily pushed to keep them in and training as much as possible, nothing wrong there if you ask me, but last Saturday I had a student who called on Friday to get the schedule all day Sat and Sun (8 hours a day). I was working with in on Saturday, we got through the groud portion of the lesson, filed the flight plan, took a break and started talking about home life for a bit. He goes on to tell me that his life is in shambles (23 years old, has a 5 month old daughter that he has not seen yet, wife is serving him divorce papers, he just got demoted from a supervisor's position at his company, etc.) and he didn't feel like he was all there today. What was I supposed to say? I told him that I agreed with him that he was not all there (when asked about something I just went over with him, he didn't know the answer, this happened about 5 times). We talked some more about it and he wanted to know if it was in his best interest to take some time off and stop training for a 2 weeks to get everything in order. I couldn't help but agree with him, so he went into the Sales Director's office and they started to talk about it. In the meantime, the Director of Ops came up to me and asked what was going on with the student, I told him he was going to take some time off. I was asked why, and I replied "He's got some family issues he needs to deal with right now." That answer was not enough for him and he pushed for some more info, and I told him to wait to speak to the Sales Director about it, and that it was not my place to say anything further. This didn't sit well with the Director of Ops, so he went and got on the phone with the Vice Pres because he didn't know how to handle the situation. I ended up overhearing, the conversation between the two of them and basically the Director of Ops told the Vice Pres that "an instructor precipitated the student to leave." So now, I am sending student's home, instead of keeping them there so they can spend their money. I merely agreed with the student, and I felt that if he stayed for the day and the following day his progress would have digressed even more than was already apparant. I told the Chief Instructor about what happened and he aggreed my suggestions and felt I did no wrong.
None of this was mentioned to me when I got the boot, but I really have a feeling this is why I got the boot.
Okay secondly, both my son and my wife are on public aid, we have food stamps, and we will be getting on WIC in the next few days.
Yes
capt megadeath, I am not going to justify my decision in having another child when I am instructing. My family is taken care of, and money in not what is going to make my family function correctly. However, thanks for your "concern"
Fourthly, I never went in and asked my boss for an advance, not once. That is not what I meant by "pick me up". If I wanted cash from them I would have asked, believe me I spent enough money there to keep there doors open for a few months there, when I was a student.
First off, as to why I was "let go".
The answer was left unclear. I was given no warning, never got written up, etc. I will first go through what was said and then I will go on to speculate as to the real reasoning.
What I was told was that it was brought to my boss's attention that there was a degredation in my performance. Specifically, that day. (To break it down, we had a team approach to instructing. Anyone instructor could work with the student on any day. So, they keep records of what the previous instructor did the lesson before so the next instructor had some place to base the student's next lesson on.) That day, I was working with a student who was at the end of getting the solo requirements met and was beginning on prepping for the checkride. Our director of operations came to me and told me to make sure I had a plan for the student because he had already called and wanted to cancel. I was sitting at the lunch table at the time and I told I already had a plan for him and we were good to go. So the student comes in and I told him to get weather and tell me whether or not we would be able to fly or not. (I already knew we were going to fly but I wanted to test his decision making.) So he got on the phone and I went out and had a smoke. Halfway through the smoke the Director of Ops takes a look out the door, at me, and then goes back inside. I finish the smoke and go back in and have a very productive lesson with the student. We even had to change our flight up a little bit to avoid some convective cells and thunderstorms. Good experience for a private student. To shorten the story, the Vice President didn't like the way I handled that situation, he felt I didn't get a plan ready when the Director of Ops specficially told me to, and he took me going out to have a smoke as unacceptable because the student was sitting there waiting for me, which as I just stated was not the case, the student was given a task that didn't require my being there at the time. Those events told the Vice President that I had a problem engaging the client and that I couldn't possilbly stay an employee there.
If you ask me that was not enough reason for me to get canned without warning. So, I can only assume that there is more behind it than I was actually let on to.
Now here's what I think.
About 4 months ago, they cleaned shop because of dwindling sales. They fired the Sales Director and Director of Operations and brought in 2 new guys to revamp the place. As of right now, the Vice President of the Company is the acting School Director while the new Sales Director and Director of Ops are in training. The new Director of Operations is the very much the best friend to the management side of the company rather than the friend of the employee side. With the dwindling sales of the company, what students we do have in daily, the instructors are heavily pushed to keep them in and training as much as possible, nothing wrong there if you ask me, but last Saturday I had a student who called on Friday to get the schedule all day Sat and Sun (8 hours a day). I was working with in on Saturday, we got through the groud portion of the lesson, filed the flight plan, took a break and started talking about home life for a bit. He goes on to tell me that his life is in shambles (23 years old, has a 5 month old daughter that he has not seen yet, wife is serving him divorce papers, he just got demoted from a supervisor's position at his company, etc.) and he didn't feel like he was all there today. What was I supposed to say? I told him that I agreed with him that he was not all there (when asked about something I just went over with him, he didn't know the answer, this happened about 5 times). We talked some more about it and he wanted to know if it was in his best interest to take some time off and stop training for a 2 weeks to get everything in order. I couldn't help but agree with him, so he went into the Sales Director's office and they started to talk about it. In the meantime, the Director of Ops came up to me and asked what was going on with the student, I told him he was going to take some time off. I was asked why, and I replied "He's got some family issues he needs to deal with right now." That answer was not enough for him and he pushed for some more info, and I told him to wait to speak to the Sales Director about it, and that it was not my place to say anything further. This didn't sit well with the Director of Ops, so he went and got on the phone with the Vice Pres because he didn't know how to handle the situation. I ended up overhearing, the conversation between the two of them and basically the Director of Ops told the Vice Pres that "an instructor precipitated the student to leave." So now, I am sending student's home, instead of keeping them there so they can spend their money. I merely agreed with the student, and I felt that if he stayed for the day and the following day his progress would have digressed even more than was already apparant. I told the Chief Instructor about what happened and he aggreed my suggestions and felt I did no wrong.
None of this was mentioned to me when I got the boot, but I really have a feeling this is why I got the boot.
Okay secondly, both my son and my wife are on public aid, we have food stamps, and we will be getting on WIC in the next few days.
Yes
capt megadeath, I am not going to justify my decision in having another child when I am instructing. My family is taken care of, and money in not what is going to make my family function correctly. However, thanks for your "concern"
Fourthly, I never went in and asked my boss for an advance, not once. That is not what I meant by "pick me up". If I wanted cash from them I would have asked, believe me I spent enough money there to keep there doors open for a few months there, when I was a student.
dmspilot00
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bart
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Iceman,
Pick up the pieces and move on. The only advice I have for you is look back and get clear on where you might have handled things to get a better result for you. The guys are jerks, nothing changes that, but you can learn from the difficult situation and come out the better for it.
Good luck with your leads.
Pick up the pieces and move on. The only advice I have for you is look back and get clear on where you might have handled things to get a better result for you. The guys are jerks, nothing changes that, but you can learn from the difficult situation and come out the better for it.
Good luck with your leads.
Av8trxx
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Catbird said:
COBRA will probably be your most EXPENSIVE option, if it is even available to you. It should be your last option, but somehow I get the feeling this guy didn't give you benefits like that anyway. For coverage on myself alone COBRA was going to cost me $300 per month! Blue Cross offered me $68/mo. Find out about insurance ASAP with that baby on the way, plus a toddler. You could get turned down by many carriers since she has a 'pre-existing condition', so start looking soon.
pilotman2105
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You seem to be handling the situation well given the circumstances. You are to be commended for that.
In regards to the comments of the company "doing you a favor" by firing you, I would agree with that if the situation is as you describe it. When management steps in and tries to tell an instructor/employee how best to do their job, it's both degrading to the employee and a horribly inefficient use of their resources. If this continues, employee moral is going to go through the floor (especially if word gets out about your termination) and customer service will soon suffer. Accordingly, I do not think that this is a place that you would want to work.
In keeping with what Resume Writer said, I would ask them if you could resign or quit rather than being terminated. It looks better. If not, chalk it up to experience and move on.
Best wishes to you. Hope those leads pan out.
In regards to the comments of the company "doing you a favor" by firing you, I would agree with that if the situation is as you describe it. When management steps in and tries to tell an instructor/employee how best to do their job, it's both degrading to the employee and a horribly inefficient use of their resources. If this continues, employee moral is going to go through the floor (especially if word gets out about your termination) and customer service will soon suffer. Accordingly, I do not think that this is a place that you would want to work.
In keeping with what Resume Writer said, I would ask them if you could resign or quit rather than being terminated. It looks better. If not, chalk it up to experience and move on.
Best wishes to you. Hope those leads pan out.
bobbysamd
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The Rest of the Story
Thanks for writing the full version. As I understand unemployment compensation law, your termination was not your fault. Therefore, you would be entitled to a full award of benefits. Once more, you understand that I am not an attorney licensed to practice law. What I know about employment law comes from experience, school and self-study. To that end, I'd suggest you pick up the book I recommended.
What happened is complete and utter, 100% pure, unadulterated bull$hit. I reiterate my earlier comment about the whole lot of those ba$tards deserving impalement through the groin.
I wish you well and will add more if I have some more ideas. All suggestions above about getting COBRA, etc., which is required by law, are excellent.
The school wouldn't happen to be the 141 outfit that was publicized recently in a Chicago newspaper, would it?
Thanks for writing the full version. As I understand unemployment compensation law, your termination was not your fault. Therefore, you would be entitled to a full award of benefits. Once more, you understand that I am not an attorney licensed to practice law. What I know about employment law comes from experience, school and self-study. To that end, I'd suggest you pick up the book I recommended.
What happened is complete and utter, 100% pure, unadulterated bull$hit. I reiterate my earlier comment about the whole lot of those ba$tards deserving impalement through the groin.
I wish you well and will add more if I have some more ideas. All suggestions above about getting COBRA, etc., which is required by law, are excellent.
The school wouldn't happen to be the 141 outfit that was publicized recently in a Chicago newspaper, would it?
FlyChicaga
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banned username 2
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bobbysamd
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The Rest of the Story
Read all about it. Once more, I stand by my comments that these people should be impaled you-know-where.FlyChicaga said:
Iceman21,
Your story is sad, but not uncommon. Your first duty is family. File for unemployment and seek employment elsewhere, aviation or not. Learn from this experience, employment is never guaranteed. Employers demand two weeks notice before your departure while reserving the right to dismiss without warning.
I don't want to seem callous, but everyone has a story. Pick yourself up, find work and get your house in order. These things have a way of working out.
This is just one of many speedbumps in your life. Don't let this speedbump distract you into the parked car your're passing.
Your story is sad, but not uncommon. Your first duty is family. File for unemployment and seek employment elsewhere, aviation or not. Learn from this experience, employment is never guaranteed. Employers demand two weeks notice before your departure while reserving the right to dismiss without warning.
I don't want to seem callous, but everyone has a story. Pick yourself up, find work and get your house in order. These things have a way of working out.
This is just one of many speedbumps in your life. Don't let this speedbump distract you into the parked car your're passing.
Jump Pilot
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Jump Pilot
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jsoceanlord
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Perhaps to you. I was eligible for that for much of my flying career, as well as welfare...and was frequently technically below the poverty level.
It's a relative, thing, however. I can distinctly recall noting the irony while spraying in Kansas as a kid that the doctor and the attorney in town lived in a like manner; barely making it, while farmers who did nothing but show a crop every few years and scam off PIK were buying a new Combine every year so sit out on rust row and depreciate, had the latest stereo or even television in their air conditioned enclosed cabs on their farm equipment, and drove new cars. The rest of us were trying to see if the rusted chassy would really make 300,000 miles, or not.
(it will)
It's a relative, thing, however. I can distinctly recall noting the irony while spraying in Kansas as a kid that the doctor and the attorney in town lived in a like manner; barely making it, while farmers who did nothing but show a crop every few years and scam off PIK were buying a new Combine every year so sit out on rust row and depreciate, had the latest stereo or even television in their air conditioned enclosed cabs on their farm equipment, and drove new cars. The rest of us were trying to see if the rusted chassy would really make 300,000 miles, or not.
(it will)
Airpiraterob
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would appear to me after reading that linked thread (thank you bobby) and reading this thread that AF up there in chicago is run by itself....lending its operations to be specific to the management team (wallet rapists) presently installed by the AF home office.
they have an interesting approach to teaching however reading the description to how their management communicatres, it would seem to me that their communication it literally 3rd or 4th hand by the time it gets to the big decision maker. ever do that team building exercise where you whisper something in someones ear and then by the time it gets back around the circle its completely something else thatn what you said before?
all that big cheese boss guy (or the head cheese?) hears is the interpretation of events from one guy who game him his interpretation of events from another guy who already had his interpretation of the events....etc..
what im most shocked about is that the bossman who fired you, didn't ask you PERSONALLY about the interaction of you and your student. all he knows is what his lackeys #2 and #3 told him. he had and has no intention of talking with the instructors about the happenings....he trusts the management first then the CFI's lastly. that embarassing in itself for any company. AF is not microsoft. it HAS to have a personal level of interaction somewhere between its boss and employees....not with the middlemen of free thinking biased and edited reporting skills. (geraldo rivera style)
advice to help: ask if you can put in a letter of resignation. now is the time to rebuild any bridge that may have caught fire and not completely burned down. a non-descript and vague letter of resignation is the way to go and therefore they cant tell anyone you were fired. you resigned! and they cant say why cause your letter says nothing about why. but you can tell your next employer any reason you want to. any bad mouthing from them about your leaving in regards to your resignation will hurt your hiring somewhere else and is cause for a lawsuit and some $$ for your kids college. when i speak of being hired...i mean anywhere. were talking non-aviation specific even. this works for EVERY place.
now speaking of lawsuits. if this really is complete bull-puckey:
you could pull a case for unlawful termination if you really believe a fault is at hand. if you go that route, get statements taken from your student that you were with that afternoon, as well as any students that you work with. even that one that left early before flying that whole blocked out saturday. and build a background showing that you have absolutely all levels of professional ability and talent. and then show how the companies organization lends itself to being completely unaware of whats going on with its workforce teaching out on "the line", as well as its unwillingness to let students acutally learn from spending its money......they get not the product theyve been buying from teh company cause of the companies actions....not yours....(that is what it looks like to me)
(3rd grade afterschool: "Now you know. and knowing is half the battle!")
they have an interesting approach to teaching however reading the description to how their management communicatres, it would seem to me that their communication it literally 3rd or 4th hand by the time it gets to the big decision maker. ever do that team building exercise where you whisper something in someones ear and then by the time it gets back around the circle its completely something else thatn what you said before?
all that big cheese boss guy (or the head cheese?) hears is the interpretation of events from one guy who game him his interpretation of events from another guy who already had his interpretation of the events....etc..
what im most shocked about is that the bossman who fired you, didn't ask you PERSONALLY about the interaction of you and your student. all he knows is what his lackeys #2 and #3 told him. he had and has no intention of talking with the instructors about the happenings....he trusts the management first then the CFI's lastly. that embarassing in itself for any company. AF is not microsoft. it HAS to have a personal level of interaction somewhere between its boss and employees....not with the middlemen of free thinking biased and edited reporting skills. (geraldo rivera style)
advice to help: ask if you can put in a letter of resignation. now is the time to rebuild any bridge that may have caught fire and not completely burned down. a non-descript and vague letter of resignation is the way to go and therefore they cant tell anyone you were fired. you resigned! and they cant say why cause your letter says nothing about why. but you can tell your next employer any reason you want to. any bad mouthing from them about your leaving in regards to your resignation will hurt your hiring somewhere else and is cause for a lawsuit and some $$ for your kids college. when i speak of being hired...i mean anywhere. were talking non-aviation specific even. this works for EVERY place.
now speaking of lawsuits. if this really is complete bull-puckey:
you could pull a case for unlawful termination if you really believe a fault is at hand. if you go that route, get statements taken from your student that you were with that afternoon, as well as any students that you work with. even that one that left early before flying that whole blocked out saturday. and build a background showing that you have absolutely all levels of professional ability and talent. and then show how the companies organization lends itself to being completely unaware of whats going on with its workforce teaching out on "the line", as well as its unwillingness to let students acutally learn from spending its money......they get not the product theyve been buying from teh company cause of the companies actions....not yours....(that is what it looks like to me)
(3rd grade afterschool: "Now you know. and knowing is half the battle!")
Last edited:
Sounds like the Director of Ops had it in for you and in a situation like that it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. You made the mistake of getting on the bad side of the Director of Operations, gave him ammunition to use against you, and then made the tactical error of assuming that the big boss would stick up for you over his own D.O. That is bad office politics, you might win a few battles but in the end you make an enemy who has influence over your job. It might not be fair but that's the way it is at a lot of places, you might feel you did nothing wrong and maybe technically you didn't but perception is reality and sending your student off to do something while you "go have a smoke" sends all the wrong signals. Some places are stricter than others but the bottom line is you smoke on your own time, period. I've been in your situation before, (not fired but close to it) and I get the feeling from your post you're a lot like I was. Right now all your defense mechanisms are kicking in and it's a natural knee jerk reaction to be angry with them and hold yourself completely blameless, but in a few years after the initial sting of getting fired goes away and you've had some time to reflect you might feel differently about it.
P.S. No flight instructing job on this earth is worth suing over unless you can prove they sexually harrassed or somehow discriminated against you.
P.S. No flight instructing job on this earth is worth suing over unless you can prove they sexually harrassed or somehow discriminated against you.
Gulfstream 200
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Weasil
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AF Again!
Hey Iceman,
Sorry to hear your tale. MattFish is right, it's not the first time they've let someone go with a pregnant wife.
Remember the Director of Ops at PWK, not only had he not done anything wrong, they let him go right before Christmas as I recall and the reason was because he told them he was thinking about looking for a job closer to where his wife's family lived when they had the baby.
He was trying to do the right thing by the company and so they let him go straight away. He was a hardworking guy trying to do the right thing by his company and his family, same as you.
Well lesson learned right. No matter how much money you spent there, loyalty does not exist.
PM me and let me know how the job hunt goes.
Hey Iceman,
Sorry to hear your tale. MattFish is right, it's not the first time they've let someone go with a pregnant wife.
Remember the Director of Ops at PWK, not only had he not done anything wrong, they let him go right before Christmas as I recall and the reason was because he told them he was thinking about looking for a job closer to where his wife's family lived when they had the baby.
He was trying to do the right thing by the company and so they let him go straight away. He was a hardworking guy trying to do the right thing by his company and his family, same as you.
Well lesson learned right. No matter how much money you spent there, loyalty does not exist.
PM me and let me know how the job hunt goes.
Iceman21 said:
Don't you mean taken care of with our taxes now? WIC!
Money is not everything, I agree with that one.
But it does effect ones attitude when the bill collectors begin to call. If you think that does not affect your family then you are WRONG!
If a person can prevent further hardship at dire times then why wouldn't that person be smart enough to wear a jimmy hat?
I am poor, I have bills, I LOOOVE ramen noodles and I am smart enough to realize I would not want to bring a child into this mix.
WEAR A JIMMY HAT!!!!
If others would wear one then we could redirect the taxes paying for WIC and give it to the teachers (or some other good) of this world.
WIC just perpetuates sexual stupidity.
TXPILOT
chperplt
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I happen to think WIC is a great program. I am happy to have my tax dollars going to a good program. Food is a necessity and should be given to those who do not have.
Welfare is actually what perpetuates sexual stupidity and should go away. Why on earth should I work to pay for some lazy dumbass who by way of additional children, earns additional benefit.
It would be one thing if that benefit came via temp housing or a utility bill or two, but to send someone a check on a monthly basis to do whatever they want with does nothing to solve their problem.
Resume Writer
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There are actually many programs that the Department of Economic Security runs, including the Welfare to Work Program, which gives employers incentive for hiring these individuals.
Unfortunately what happens is people abuse the system - many of whom have never paid into the system. I know a woman (ex friend now) who is perfectly capable of working but has learned to work the sytem because she is LAZY! I think in the entire time that I have known her, she has worked about 3 weeks over the course of 7 years!!
It makes me angry that I am working to pay for her laziness and having more children. I have no problem with people getting the assistance if they run on hard times, but continually sucking off the system makes me upset.
I have worked with women in a program called The Fresh Start Foundation here in Phoenix, in addition to the Women Off Welfare program. These individuals are truly trying to make a difference in the lives of the their children and themselves. I have no problem giving my time to help them because they want to help themselves. I applaud them for trying to change their circumstances. It is the other people that I have a problem with.
Kathy
Unfortunately what happens is people abuse the system - many of whom have never paid into the system. I know a woman (ex friend now) who is perfectly capable of working but has learned to work the sytem because she is LAZY! I think in the entire time that I have known her, she has worked about 3 weeks over the course of 7 years!!
It makes me angry that I am working to pay for her laziness and having more children. I have no problem with people getting the assistance if they run on hard times, but continually sucking off the system makes me upset.I have worked with women in a program called The Fresh Start Foundation here in Phoenix, in addition to the Women Off Welfare program. These individuals are truly trying to make a difference in the lives of the their children and themselves. I have no problem giving my time to help them because they want to help themselves. I applaud them for trying to change their circumstances. It is the other people that I have a problem with.
Kathy
D
deez_nutz2000
Sorry to hear about this dude....
What do you expect from a school that has a 98% pass rate of students who have more violoations in the DPA FSDO than anyone else. That is seriously one jakked up company..and from what has been heard around PWK may not be in the Chicago area much longer. Have you tried any of the schools at PWK?
What do you expect from a school that has a 98% pass rate of students who have more violoations in the DPA FSDO than anyone else. That is seriously one jakked up company..and from what has been heard around PWK may not be in the Chicago area much longer. Have you tried any of the schools at PWK?
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