Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
Re: Reply to Freight Dog
You seem to think that it is impossible to fire a unionized worker. Boy, are you wrong... once again, shows how little you know about the unions and how they work.
I simply implied that if management had something similar to seniority system, they would have the same interest in well-being of their airline as employees do. After all, they can punch out with nice golden parachute, yet we can't.
Required reading my friend.... Flying the Line I and II.
TXCAP4228 said:1) So if an airline is failing to make money and it is the management's fault, are you saying that every single pilot has done everything possible to make the airline run as efficiently as possible? Come one. How many times have I readon this board when pilots exhort their union brothers to do something to make it hard on management. Sure, Wilbur.
You bet it is management's fault. Who runs the company? Who makes the decisions to fly that type of aircraft between that pair of cities? Who makes investment decisions in the company?
Bear in mind that the company HAS to agree to a contract before it becomes binding. What you see on pilot forums is rantings and ravings, and if you ever get to ride in the cockpit jumpseat of an airline, you'll hear the same thing. Bear in mind that most major airline pilots are either former military pilots or former regional airline pilots. We are not your uneducated crowd, although we can act like a bunch of crybabies, but we're not out to strangle the goose by demanding unreasonable.
2) As for records losses, when the economy turns down ALL INDUSTRIES take losses. I will agree that some airlines are using an outdated business model, but some airlines have managed to continue making money in spite of the economy of the last three years - and some have never laid off a pilot.
Yes, they do. With the statement that "some airlines are using an outdated business model" you just countered your own argument. Whose fault is that? Sure, SWA has continued to make money because of THEIR MANAGEMENT who designed their business model, and their employees who are unionized none the same. Let's hope they pay their employees what they're worth as well. Their flight attendants are way below industry standard and even if SWA paid them the industry standard, they would still continue to be profitable.
3) On forcing wage cuts, I will concede to you that the most recent example at American Airlines was pretty slimy but I don't think that it is appropriate to say that its the rule.
It's not a rule, it's criminal. On top of that, it wasn't only at American. Look at NWA, Delta, UAL, USAirways, Hawaiian... do some research, you'll be surprised at what you find out.
Overall the unions have done more harm than good. I can see how they begin, but once they exist they exist for the benefit of the already arrived and the most senior. I guess SWA's outstanding safety record is due to ALPA? Oh... wait a minute... ALPA doesn't represent them.... nevermind.
You're a pilot, right? Do you like how the taxiway and runway signs are laid out? What do you think about the latest improvements to LAHSO operations which will ultimately reduce airspace congestion? How about TCAS requirements for passenger airliners? Ahh... nevermind, those were some things that ALPA made happen that are enjoyed industry-wide. By the way, SWA pilots have an in-house union SWAPA which works closely with other pilot unions. Your arguments and lack of knowledge about ALPA, pilot unions, improvements in the national airspace system clearly shows your inexperience.
The businesses, the FAA, and passengers mandates will increase safety. My point is that you would be hard pressed to convince me that increases in safety have been due to unions and nothing else - thousands of things have lead to an increase in safety that run the gammut from regulatory to the insistance of the paying customers.
Do you know what people care about? I'm sure you do... you love those $99 fares, dontcha? Well guess what... you get a $99 product. Your average Joe has no clue what TCAS is, nor does he know the ergonomics of current aircraft designs, nor does he care to know what LAHSO means, nor does he care about airspace congestions, nor does he care about separation requirements and little things like that. On the other hand, the management wants to make $$$$. Obviously, you've never worked as a pilot, and you don't know how many operators without unions push their people to break regs in order to turn a buck. Ask some Part 135 pilots, ask some non-union freight dogs flying B727's about passengers and customers demanding safety. They don't give a rat's about any of that, they just want to get from point A to point B.
1) Pilot unions prevent you from being able to leave one job and walk into another based on qualification. Why? Because that may displace someone who has already been given a protected status that has nothing to do with their ability to fly an airplane, but instead has everything to do with "I was here first". I love the quote from Fate is the Hunter - this is close to verbatum: Seniority protects the weak, who are everywhere, and in the greatest numbers. If I had a copy of it at my desk I would give you the quote exactly.
Based on qualifications huh? How's this one strike you? You are a paying passenger, and your flight is captained by one of the girls on B190Captain's avatars with 1500 hours and bare legal minimums in the operations simply because she showed some skin to the chief pilot. Oh, and she's only been here for a month. The FO on the flight is this 6 year veteran flying that same equipment for the same company. Once again, shows your inexperience in how our industry works - from time building days to major airline cockpits.
2) Why should an airline not be allowed to choose the equipment that it puts on a certain route? If it makes money and satisfies the customers, why shouldn't they be able to do it? Do you see that your question proves my point??????? If a company sees benefit in using certain equipment, and its more profitable and satisfies the paying customers, what the hell is a union doing trying to dictate something else? You are proving my point that unions dictate terms to airlines (and for that matter all companies which are unionized) that are necessarily less profitable than other alternatives.
The airlines ARE the ones who decide what equipment is flown on certain routes. I presume you are talking about RJDC argument here, and let's hope the thread doesn't get hijacked, BUT... there is absolutely nothing preventing management on what kind of aircraft gets put on a route. The only restriction is WHO FLIES that aircraft. In Delta's case, 57 70-seaters can be flown by Connection pilots, if Delta wants to replace their entire narrowbody fleet with 70 seat CRJ's, that's their prerogative, but they'll have to be flown by Delta mainline pilots. It's called JOB PROTECTION.
To say that having seniority gives you a vested interest in the company flies (forgive the pun) in the face of reality. I am personally not in a union job, and am employed at will by my company. If, some day, they decide to fire me it is their perogative to do so. Now... do you suppose that makes me produce in a way that insures that I will not ever find myself in that position? Of course it does. The union job is extremely protected and lends itslef to the opposite effect.
Yes, you have a vested interest in the well-being of your airline. Unlike the management and their golden parachutes once they destroy an airline, we are "stuck" with our airline due to seniority. You make it sound that unionized employees are out to destroy the airline that employs them. Yet, you don't seem to understand the concept of seniority and how it correlates at employees' interests in the well-being of their airline. Once again, shows inexperience on your part...
Then you go on to say that if managements had a seniority system there would be no rape and pillage of major airlines..... you have completely lost me here. If management had a seniorty sytstem then Carty would have had a UNION CONTRACT that prevented the company from being able to fire him.
So what in the world are you talking about here? You've lost me. Maybe I don't have enough hours after all.....
I have thought about reading Flying the Line but I just haven't gotten around to it.
Back to you.
You seem to think that it is impossible to fire a unionized worker. Boy, are you wrong... once again, shows how little you know about the unions and how they work.
I simply implied that if management had something similar to seniority system, they would have the same interest in well-being of their airline as employees do. After all, they can punch out with nice golden parachute, yet we can't.
Required reading my friend.... Flying the Line I and II.
