I’m confused I thought the PNCL TA was industry leading?

[higney85]

What's going on with the Pinnacle bonus money? Did the MEC chairman really screw up the language?

Sounds like lawsuits to follow.

The official language hasn't even been released yet.

 

[DoinTime]

This has become known as "block or better" in the industry, which we have.

"Block or better" in the industry is a contraction from "scheduled block or actual block, whichever is better". What we have is "averaged actual block or actual block, whichever is better". Scheduled block is generally higher than average actual block because the airlines like to build in a buffer so that they stay on time. A few carriers use this averaging system or something similar but its not as lucrative as systems that compare the actual schedule with actual block. Maybe next time we improve on this.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

True usually it is a couple minutes less than actual block. Occasionally it works in our favor and is actually paying over block from the start. Overall it's really not much of a difference. I would say our leg by leg guarantee is a much bigger improvement than switching to a true block or better. Now we won't have scheduling pull our middle turn on the last day just to bring us back down to trip guarantee. Good for the lineholder that doesn't have 3 hours overtime stolen from them, good for the reserve that now isn't called in to fly that turn for no reason other than to take money away from a fellow pilot.

 

[Flyprdu]

True usually it is a couple minutes less than actual block. Occasionally it works in our favor and is actually paying over block from the start. Overall it's really not much of a difference.

Before making blanket statements, I would check with the JFK pilots how trip value or better is working out for them. Their scheduled block times are usually padded with 30 minutes+.

Now we won't have scheduling pull our middle turn on the last day just to bring us back down to trip guarantee. Good for the lineholder that doesn't have 3 hours overtime stolen from them, good for the reserve that now isn't called in to fly that turn for no reason other than to take money away from a fellow pilot.

Have you seen our schedules lately? Getting back to guarantee is something that doesn't happen at 9E. They would never burn a reserve to cover "too much flying" of a line holder. Besides, all the reserves are covering open time.

Rationalize if you will, but anything that takes money out of the pockets of pilots is not a good thing.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

That was a Mesaba perspective... Much like many other sections of the contract some of the Pinnacle guys have had issues with because of the different cultures and enforcements of the contract, this is a similar situation. For my experiences at Mesaba, it's largely a wash.

 

[relief tube]

Having said it is average, I can back up my claim by saying about half the regionals still have better contracts.

way to not lower the bar. but it wasn't raised either.

The bar has been, diluted.

 

[dojetdriver]

I remember when the XJT 2004 contract came out...Neal Schwartz was on this board explaining that while XJT's payrates were not the highest in the industry, XJT pilots would have the highest W2s in the industry - even higher than Comair - due to work rules.

Part of that workrules thing was based on profit sharing. XJT was operating at a cost + 10% at the time. Profit? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I truly do wish the best for ASA and XJT. Its your turn up at bat. Go get-em.

SKW didn't do us any favors recently. Wishing for the best on the JCBA, but preparing for the worst.

 

[sinkrate]

That was a Mesaba perspective... Much like many other sections of the contract some of the Pinnacle guys have had issues with because of the different cultures and enforcements of the contract, this is a similar situation. For my experiences at Mesaba, it's largely a wash.

I wouldn't call it a 'Mesaba perspective', it is and old NWA perspective. NWA had the three most reliable hubs in the inductry, and their marketing times reflected that. As more of your business moves to NY and ATL (it will) you will discover the pain of working in a marketing system that melts down by nine most mornings.

 

[bluefly72]

The real question is can ASA and XJT match the gains from the old contract to the new that this contract did?

Are familiar with a term "catch-up effect"?

 

[CptMurf]

I wouldn't call it a 'Mesaba perspective', it is and old NWA perspective. NWA had the three most reliable hubs in the inductry, and their marketing times reflected that. As more of your business moves to NY and ATL (it will) you will discover the pain of working in a marketing system that melts down by nine most mornings.

I would call it a Mesaba perspective, XJs performance numbers would agree. We've been flying to NY and ATL for years with no difference in operations than any other city.

Hopefully, this is one of those items that is fixed with the merger.

 

[RJLoser]

Are familiar with a term "catch-up effect"?

Are you familiar with nouns?

 

[Regul8r]

Maybe next time we improve on this.

THIS should be the new ALPO motto!

 

[Flyprdu]

I would call it a Mesaba perspective, XJs performance numbers would agree. We've been flying to NY and ATL for years with no difference in operations than any other city.

Hopefully, this is one of those items that is fixed with the merger.

Swing and a miss, Murf.

It has nothing to do with "performance," as it does with what is scheduled. Delta schedules a flight 2:45 long. Pinnacle's trip value average has the flight worth 2:17. You lose :28 minutes you would otherwise have if you had true block or better.

No use complaining now. What's done is done. Maybe someday, people at our combined companies will realize that they've been shortchanging themselves with this Trip Value BS.

 

[Smarta$$]

Swing and a miss, Murf.

It has nothing to do with "performance," as it does with what is scheduled. Delta schedules a flight 2:45 long. Pinnacle's trip value average has the flight worth 2:17. You lose :28 minutes you would otherwise have if you had true block or better.

No use complaining now. What's done is done. Maybe someday, people at our combined companies will realize that they've been shortchanging themselves with this Trip Value BS.

Totally agree. This contract won't fix the fact that all our trips are blocked at 25 hours with credit at 22:20.

But you can't win an argument with stupid people. They already know they are right.

 

[CptMurf]

Not a miss at all. Reread your post.

I wouldn't call it a 'Mesaba perspective', it is and old NWA perspective. NWA had the three most reliable hubs in the inductry, and their marketing times reflected that. As more of your business moves to NY and ATL (it will) you will discover the pain of working in a marketing system that melts down by nine most mornings.

You imply that since we move more operations to NY and ATL that we "discover the pain..." My point is, we've been flying there for awhile and it has not changed our operations or performance numbers.

Mesaba's perception of pattern building is that of credits being within a minute or two of block. Obviously, 9Es system has been different, with large gaps in credit/block.

Hopefully this will change for the better with the merger.

 

[CptMurf]

But you can't win an argument with stupid people. They already know they are right.

Those who live in glass houses....

 

[Smarta$$]

Those who live in glass houses....

I don't.

 

[DoinTime]

Mesaba's perception of pattern building is that of credits being within a minute or two of block. Obviously, 9Es system has been different, with large gaps in credit/block.

Hopefully this will change for the better with the merger.

Mesaba, nor Pinnacle, get to specify what the marketing times are. DAL does that. Even if Mesaba did get to specify the market times, it wouldn't matter anymore because Mesaba doesn't really exist anymore.

 

[CptMurf]

Mesaba, nor Pinnacle, get to specify what the marketing times are. DAL does that. Even if Mesaba did get to specify the market times, it wouldn't matter anymore because Mesaba doesn't really exist anymore.

We share a holdings company, we share a contract, but Mesaba does, and will continue to exist (as a turboprop operator). Unless Phil has changed the plan and only told you, that is.

Marketing times are a totally different animal. Yes, DAL specifies them. But credit and block are set by our actions and our companies. Here's a real world scenario... MSP-AUS is blocked at 2:47, credited at 2:45, and marketed at 2:55. Marketing times take in other items and add buffers for such things as flow control. This is their tool to keep operation flowing on time from a passengers perspective.
Block is what the flight should take.
Credit is determined based off the average of how long the last 150 flights blocked (at least at XJ).
Marketing times are probably based off our average SAT times, with a buffer for oopses.
I don't know of any airline that gets paid marketing time or better, if that's what you and flypru are suggesting.

 

[Whydoitry]

If by marketing time you mean the scheduled flight time then XJT gets paid the actual flight time or scheduled flight time whichever is greater. We used to have peg times which was an average but those went away with our contract in 1998.

 

[CptMurf]

If by marketing time you mean the scheduled flight time then XJT gets paid the actual flight time or scheduled flight time whichever is greater. We used to have peg times which was an average but those went away with our contract in 1998.

Think passenger scheduled departure time to scheduled arrival time.

 

[CptMurf]

Took some digging, but I found an example...

MSP-MSN
Same aircraft Crj200
Blocked 1:14
Credit 1:06
Marketed at 1:14 (for XJ)
Marketed at 1:07 (for 9E)

I'm interested now, what's 9Es block and credit for this segment?

 

[DoinTime]

Took some digging, but I found an example...

MSP-MSN
Same aircraft Crj200
Blocked 1:14
Credit 1:06
Marketed at 1:14 (for XJ)
Marketed at 1:07 (for 9E)

I'm interested now, what's 9Es block and credit for this segment?

Marketing and what you call "scheduled" times are the same. Why would Mesaba or Pinnacle management reschedule tens of thousands of block hours when Delta has already given them a perfectly good set of times?

PCL's times are:
Market - 1: 07
Scheduled - 1: 07
Credit (with our current TVs) - 1: 04

In your example with the Mesaba times, the system of average block time being the credit for the leg shorts the pilot 8 minutes vs. the most commonly used system of getting paid the greater of scheduled time or actual block. Losing 8 minutes on this leg is equal to a 12% cut in pay. Pretty significant if you ask me. The disparity at PCL is narrower but it varies based on city pair. Looks to me like the Mesaba system is even a worse butt f*cking than what we get at Pinnacle.

:beer: Hears to hoping the Mesaba way of doing things falls by the way side.

 

[CptMurf]

Care to explain the other scenario then, they're real numbers too.

MSP-AUS
Blocked 2:47 (I guess XJ didn't like DALs' time)
Credited 2:45
Marketed 2:55

For the life of me, I don't know how getting rid of your miserable 15 minutes for free, is screwing you over.

Really, it doesn't matter... the contract is in place, it states SAT (credit) or better. These are the average times we fly from point A to B. You can see these times change monthly, for things like airport construction, or deicing. Fly the contract, fly the profiles, we all make more money.

 

[CptMurf]

Just for emphasis, here's another one...
MSP-MEM
Blocked 1:57 (if DAL published them, we certainly don't follow them)
Credit 2:01 (oh look a 4% increase)
Marketed 2:11

 

[Baronman]

Think passenger scheduled departure time to scheduled arrival time.

Yes this is what we get at XJT....Scheduled (as far as pax know) departure time to scheduled (as far as pax know) arrival time, plus any overs. Done leg by leg.

 

[CptMurf]

Yes this is what we get at XJT....Scheduled (as far as pax know) departure time to scheduled (as far as pax know) arrival time, plus any overs. Done leg by leg.

Very Nice. A lot of soft money to be made there.

Something to definately shoot for. Unfortunately, not the case for the next 5 years.

 

[Smarta$$]

Very Nice. A lot of soft money to be made there.

Something to definately shoot for. Unfortunately, not the case for the next 5 years.

I think you mean ten years.

 

[DoinTime]

For the life of me, I don't know how getting rid of your miserable 15 minutes for free, is screwing you over.

Really, it doesn't matter... the contract is in place, it states SAT (credit) or better. These are the average times we fly from point A to B. You can see these times change monthly, for things like airport construction, or deicing. Fly the contract, fly the profiles, we all make more money.

I never said or implied that it was a screw over. I was just pointing out that the system in place at Mesaba (and that would have been in place at PCL had TA 1 passed) is a less desirable system than what is in place at most carriers that truly have "block or better" and it usually comes with reduced pay. Its definitely something to shoot for next time.