Hypothetic situation

[UA-RESURRECTED]

You're enroute VFR to a non-towered field that has say 2 runways oriented in different directions. Upon approaching the field, you are unable to raise a unicom operator despite several call-ups. There is also no known traffic in the pattern as requests for traffic to advise go unanswered. This field has no ATIS or any type of weather-reporting equipment. You overfly the field for a "wind check", but for whatever reason, you're unable to get a clear view of the sock, T, whatever...

If the runways are fairly long, is it EVER acceptable to simply land with complete disregard for the current wind conditions?

 

[ackattacker]

Fly a circle at a constant rate of turn. Where you end up tells you which way the wind is blowing.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Rock your wings and look for light gun signals.

 

[epic!]

check the closest airport that has ATIS

 

[sqwkvfr]

You're enroute VFR to a non-towered field that has say 2 runways oriented in different directions. Upon approaching the field, you are unable to raise a unicom operator despite several call-ups. There is also no known traffic in the pattern as requests for traffic to advise go unanswered. This field has no ATIS or any type of weather-reporting equipment. You overfly the field for a "wind check", but for whatever reason, you're unable to get a clear view of the sock, T, whatever...

If the runways are fairly long, is it EVER acceptable to simply land with complete disregard for the current wind conditions?

Sure.

Provided you own the aircraft, only you are on board to get hurt in the event that something goes wrong and there is no one on the ground that you might injure.

You know, you've been trolling on this board for a very long time now...are you about finished?

(...standing by for the normal "I have a serious question and all you wanna do is pick on me!!!" response from this dude.)

 

[ackattacker]

You're enroute VFR to a non-towered field that has say 2 runways oriented in different directions. Upon approaching the field, you are unable to raise a unicom operator despite several call-ups. There is also no known traffic in the pattern as requests for traffic to advise go unanswered. This field has no ATIS or any type of weather-reporting equipment. You overfly the field for a "wind check", but for whatever reason, you're unable to get a clear view of the sock, T, whatever...

If the runways are fairly long, is it EVER acceptable to simply land with complete disregard for the current wind conditions?

If you want a serious answer to your question, the answer is "no". You should have at least some idea of what the wind situation is. Otherwise you are behaving recklessly, and possibly exceeding a limitation of your aircraft. Part of basic piloting is remaining aware of the general weather situation. Before you left you should have received wind forecasts and reports. Enroute you should have been keeping an eye on your groundspeed and wind correction. There are literally dozens of ways to determine the basic speed and direction of the wind.

 

[UA-RESURRECTED]

True, there would be no excuse for doing it. Trees, smoke, water, crab angles, nearby reporting stations, yeah there's probably a dozen ways to obtain wind information in the air. My question was basically inquiring on just how serous the dangers of doing this would be. If you're landing a 150 on a 10,000' runway, I can't help but think that nothing worse than a go-around would result, not that that justifies attempting....

I NEVER had any doubt that it was a bad idea.

 

[ackattacker]

If you land with a strong tailwind you risk tire failure, and if something does go wrong you are going to crash with a much higher forward energy.

 

[Waldom]

The attitude reflected in your hypothetical reflects an unhealthy reliance on communication radio and a lack of basic airmanship fundamentals. This is not meant as a disparageing remark toward you, but I am concerned about the quality of your flight instructor.

I gather that you are working on solo cross-country work now. Your instructor should long ago have taught you to "read" the surface wind by being aware of smoke from ground fires, power plants and industrial smoke stacks. You should also be able to deduce the direction and even the approximate velocity of the wind by looking at the surfaces of ponds, lakes, and rivers. When the surface wind is over 10 knots, it can often be seen by studying the movements of row crops or, in a dry or desert area, by blowing dust. This stuff should have been covered from your first hour of instruction.

Control tower and Unicom advisories, ATIS and ASOS/AWOS broadcasts are great things, but remember that they are simply observations of recent history. A lot can change in 10 minutes. You should always be looking for evidence of wind direction and velocity especially as you fly a landing pattern....on every approach and every landing on every type of airport, controlled or not.

Sorry this turned into a lecture, but as long as I am at it, let me throw in a caution regarding unicom advisory frequencies. Monitoring them for reported traffic while approaching the airport and making position reports as you enter and fly the pattern is a very good practice. Don't assume, however, that because you hear no other traffic for that airport that there is none. Lots of pilots either do not have a radio installed in their airplane, have turned it off or tuned the wrong frequency if it is installed, or simply missed your calls even if they are on the proper frequency. Keep you eyes open and your head on a swivel.

And one last note. Even if the wind is blowing straight down one runway, don't assume that it is the only one in use. Someone may be intentionally practicing crosswind landings on another one. Or they might be flying an airplane that requires the longest runway on the field regardless of the wind direction. There is also the possibility of a pilot out there that wasn't able to obtain a landing advisory, does not know how to deduce surface wind, and is just winging it and hoping for the best.

 

[UA-RESURRECTED]

Great info, thanks.

 

[charter dog]

Back to the basics of yesteryear!

With no apparrent indicators of surface wind conditions such as airport wind indicators, dust, smoke, wind shadows on water surfaces, flags or the like, circling overhead will at least give an idea of the general wind direction and velocity at your circling altitude of perhaps 1,500' AGL. Keep in mind that terrain contours can cause the wind to be quite different at the surface. If none of these things provide any definitive indications of significance, it may be because there is little or no wind!

At this point, you might consider an approach to the most suitable looking runway. Consider length, width, gradient and obstructions. If during that approach, the groundspeed seems excessive, a large crab angle is required or if it seems unusually difficult to descend at a normal angle without building excessive airspeed, climb to pattern altitude, select a different landing direction and repeat as necessary. You should have a pretty good idea what's going on while still a couple hundred feet above the runway. During your flyby, if required, you may catch sight of the missing visual cues that were not visible at altitude.

Unless the need to get on the ground is urgent, there is plenty of time and no hurry. With a little practice, reading surface wind signs from the air becomes second nature and the initial landing direction selected will be correct most of the time. When it is not, the visual cues and indications during the approach should alert you to the discrepancy. We're always ready to go around if some measure of the progress of the approach isn't right, right?

So yes, it is perfectly acceptable to land at a place where the determination of wind direction and velocity is left to your own powers of observation and judgement. In reality, we do this every time we land, whether reports are provided or not.

Be careful, but be sure to enjoy the adventure!

Edited to add that Waldom posted his fine comments while I was composing mine. Apologies for any repitition!

Best,

 

[avbug]

If the runways are fairly long, is it EVER acceptable to simply land with complete disregard for the current wind conditions?

Of course. I do it all the time. Adequate runway, pick one, land. If the wind is strong, you'll already be aware of that. You can see trees, grass, water on a pond, blowing dust, the movement of shadows of clouds, the drift of your airplane, etc. If you can't tell from those things, there's not enough wind down there to worry about. If your in mountainous terrian, often landing uphill is preferable, even with a tailwind. Taking off downhill is often preferable even with a tailwind. Landing with the shorter taxi route may be preferable...you don't necessarily need to land into the wind. You may even wish to practice crosswind landings. Not a big deal.

There is also no known traffic in the pattern as requests for traffic to advise go unanswered.

Look for traffic with your eyes, not with your radio. No need to ask other traffic to report. You report, and if other traffic has something to say, they will. Never assume that other traffic reporting it's position is accurate; that could be a fatal assumption. Look. Your radio cannot spot traffic for you.

Likewise, when picking a landing runway, look. Are you feeling excessively fast on final, but your indicated airspeed is good? Perhaps it's just a high density altitude. Perhaps your airspeed indication is wrong. But perhaps you have a tailwind. You can always go around and try something else if you don't feel comfortable.

You are under no obligation to land directly into the wind, legally or otherwise. You choose what you feel is best. Wind is only one concern. You may elect to land downwind because the go-around path offers more options, whereas landing into the wind might place you in jeopardy in the event you have to go around or have a problem. It may be a one-way airstrip. In this case, you have several choices, it's your discretion. Make a choice and go with it.

 

[UA-RESURRECTED]

Avbug that is great info, thanks. Sorry I was a smart-ass in the 2-stroke thread...

 

[Iceman07]

In a similar vein...

A few weeks ago, I was up one evening in my C-170, and it was a beutiful evening, all stations (HFD, BDL, etc.) Were either calling Light and Variable or Calm. I decided to fly over to Willimantic (IJD) and do a couple of landings. I get there, and sure enough, no other traffic (not even on the ground), no unicom, and the windsock is hanging straight down, any smoke in the area is rising straight up, and there is no movement in any trees. I happen to have the AFG with me, but there is no mention of a prefered runway.

RNY 36/18 is 2797 ft. 27/9 is 4278 ft.

I'm in an airplane that can land pretty short, so what to do, what to do?

Well, I called out my intentions and landed on 9. Why? Don't know. Just threw a coin.

What would you have done?

 

[2dumb2drive]

RNY 36/18 is 2797 ft. 27/9 is 4278 ft.

I'm in an airplane that can land pretty short, so what to do, what to do?

Well, I called out my intentions and landed on 9. Why? Don't know. Just threw a coin.

What would you have done?

Good grief what did you do in those 2500 hrs, i hope this isnt puzzling for anyone else here. fly the freakin airplane! you could have done five touch and goes with a tailwind and still hand room to land a 170 on a runway that long.

 

[Iceman07]

Good grief what did you do in those 2500 hrs, i hope this isnt puzzling for anyone else here. fly the freakin airplane! you could have done five touch and goes with a tailwind and still hand room to land a 170 on a runway that long.

Man-O-Man, you pro's are an arogant lot, now, aren't you?

In answer to your question, though, about half of those 2500 hours were spent sweating on the right side of my face. The other half were wasted.

 

[A Squared]

Man-O-Man, you pro's are an arogant lot, now, aren't you?

Well, perhaps the tone of the previous poster was unwarranted, however I think most are going to understand the sentiment. Having to chose between 4 possible runway choices, all of which offer ample distance, with no wind and no unusual traffic considerations is not what could be considered a noteworthy moment in aeronautical decision making.

I too, am a bit puzzled why a pilot who claims 2500 hours would present this as something worthy of discussion. I suspect others are scratching thier heads also.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I can just see it now....Great Moments in the History of Aeronautical Decision Making......Marion Blakey presents - YOU make the call....

 

[Iceman07]

Yup, I was just being stoopid

Well, perhaps the tone of the previous poster was unwarranted, however I think most are going to understand the sentiment. Having to chose between 4 possible runway choices, all of which offer ample distance, with no wind and no unusual traffic considerations is not what could be considered a noteworthy moment in aeronautical decision making.

I too, am a bit puzzled why a pilot who claims 2500 hours would present this as something worthy of discussion. I suspect others are scratching thier heads also.

I know that there are not that many student pilots on the board, but think about it, if you had a student on a solo X-C, what would you expect him to do?

I do find it interesting that there are certain things that we do that we don't bat an eye at, but for the average student pilot, when given a choice of four runways, I bet some of them would be completely flustered by the decision.

 

[Iceman07]

This reminds me of a FAA safety seminar I attended a few weeks ago, the topic was "Emercency Landings". The presenter said, at one point, that in case of an emergency landing, don't choose a Golf-course. Put it into the trees instead. His logic was that there might be golfers on the fairway, and you don't want to put them into danger. "What?" says I. I got a choice of landing on a few hundred yards of smooth grass or plow into a bunch of trees, and you want me to choose the trees? I think not. This guy was a high-time pro (just like you guys) There was no question in his mind. There is no question in my mind.