Hurray for the 1108, The RIFed are back !

[skanza]

The Unions sole responsibility is to negotiate a contract for a specific group and protect the intersets and rights of such group.
The people you claim to do the above jobs were paid to do such. Whats your point?
As far as them having more responsibility? Again-you like to feel you are important..Keep pushing that paperwork...When you make a mistake the feds just say "No" do it over.. Pilots ofetn do not get that second ,third or fourth chance. Responsibility from the top down...This board is filled with stories of how irresponsible the top down have been in everything that they have done. The bottom line is the pilot! The passenger could care less how many manuals you have written so pilots could follow them. Or the mechanic that works on them. The passenger-Mr Moneybags-cares about the pilot-being rested qualified and knowledgeable to know when not to fly tired, hungry, pissed off, or just plain old mechanical junk--CND....

I think the passengers may actually care who the mechanic is that works on thier plane. The pilot has no control over whether the mechanic used the right bolts or correct torque for that which holds the engine on the airplane. Right?

 

[brokeflyer]

Legacy pilots sucked the carriers dry right before they put all of them into bankruptcy and now consolidation. There are lots of pilots now that would have chosen smaller paychecks and stability long before the big paychecks they used to have.

I've always said, when times are good, unions are wonderful, but the true measure of a union is when times are bad.

When the ecomomy slips and the company needs some of that money back, we'll see how that nice paycheck holds up. The bigger the paycheck is during the good times, means the deeper the cuts are during bad times because the company can't afford a "good times" CBA during bad times. Let's see how the job stability and seat protection holds up.

Fracs aren't immune, it's only a matter of time before they cycle around.

can i come work for you then?....please?

 

[993_Pilot]

Help me here.. how does more pay and defined rest rules change the long list you have here? . . .

Most airlines never have more than a few years of profits before they are filing for bankruptcy again. The Non-Union 121 carriers often just plain go out of business, and their track record isn't any better, and probably worse than the unionized legacy carriers, even though their costs are less. Any business should know what its costs are, and price their product or service accordingly. When they don't, they are bound to lose their A$$. And that is exactly what the airlines do, They generally price their service less than their costs. They know what they are paying for labor, maint. overhead, etc. and they know the cost of fuel on the day they sell the ticket. They may not know exactly how many seats they will sell, but historical data allows them to forecast with pretty good accuracy. Yet they still choose to sell most seats at below cost and rely on a few premium fares to provide their margin. I would defend their right to do this in a free market economy, but when it doesn't work consistently, don't come crying to me about how it is the unions fault.

 

[brokeflyer]

dude where have you been?

its the union's fault....lol

amazing how there are a lotta airlines and fracs and 135 operators that dont have a union and they are doing so well.....the pilots are so happy to be butt fcked.....amazing....

the unions fault though.

i can't believe ive been so blind and accpepted the package my union gave me. I really wish i was making 24,000 / year to fly the G200 with no food and $hitty equipment and a GREAT 8 on 2 off schedule.....all with a stellar retirement plan that i make myself with the local bank and their savings account. Not to mention the GREAT medical i get for $500 per month.

Fckin union sucks.....

 

[Galaxy]

I think the passengers may actually care who the mechanic is that works on thier plane. The pilot has no control over whether the mechanic used the right bolts or correct torque for that which holds the engine on the airplane. Right?

True the pilot has no control over this type of issue. The mechanic and IA both have certificates on the line and the NTSB will find anything in an investigation.
Hence:
Title:Oklahoma Aircraft Mechanic and Aircraft Parts Broker Sentenced for Falsification of Records in Connection with Improper Aircraft Engine OverhaulsDate:September 28, 2007Type:InvestigationSummary:On September 28, 2007, Larry G. Good and Robert E. Parker were sentenced in U.S. District Court, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Larry Good was sentenced to serve 14 months of incarceration and 12 months probation, as well as ordered to pay $306,990 in restitution. Mr. Parker was sentenced to serve 72 months of incarceration and 36 months of probation, as well as ordered to pay $378,633 in restitution. The investigation revealed that Mr. Good, a certified aircraft mechanic, along with Mr. Parker, a self-employed aircraft parts broker, falsified entries in aircraft logbooks in connection with the overhaul of aircraft engines. They were aware the engines were not overhauled properly, contained replacement parts that were marked "not airworthy," or were simply unsafe for use on an aircraft.

So, just like a pilot these folks have something to lose as well. The pilots just pay with their lives at times. Oh yea then the family's civil lawsuits against said individuals. Yea it is worth it....
I have never-ever had a pax ask about a mechanic. They know and TRUST that I as the pilot will not put my certificate or safety on the line so they can get from A to B. It is just a long line of responsibilty...and the pilot is the LAST line of defense for safety.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

True the pilot has no control over this type of issue. The mechanic and IA both have certificates on the line and the NTSB will find anything in an investigation.
Hence:
Title:Oklahoma Aircraft Mechanic and Aircraft Parts Broker Sentenced for Falsification of Records in Connection with Improper Aircraft Engine OverhaulsDate:September 28, 2007Type:InvestigationSummary:On September 28, 2007, Larry G. Good and Robert E. Parker were sentenced in U.S. District Court, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Larry Good was sentenced to serve 14 months of incarceration and 12 months probation, as well as ordered to pay $306,990 in restitution. Mr. Parker was sentenced to serve 72 months of incarceration and 36 months of probation, as well as ordered to pay $378,633 in restitution. The investigation revealed that Mr. Good, a certified aircraft mechanic, along with Mr. Parker, a self-employed aircraft parts broker, falsified entries in aircraft logbooks in connection with the overhaul of aircraft engines. They were aware the engines were not overhauled properly, contained replacement parts that were marked "not airworthy," or were simply unsafe for use on an aircraft.

So, just like a pilot these folks have something to lose as well. The pilots just pay with their lives at times. Oh yea then the family's civil lawsuits against said individuals. Yea it is worth it....
I have never-ever had a pax ask about a mechanic. They know and TRUST that I as the pilot will not put my certificate or safety on the line so they can get from A to B. It is just a long line of responsibilty...and the pilot is the LAST line of defense for safety.

Very well said guys!

 

[993_Pilot]

...One thing I do know, is that on this board NOTHING has been said about the 128 unless it's been prompted. Lots of chest beating to show how wonderful 1108 is regarding the 70, but not a single moral or ethical statement regarding the coworkers caught up in the same mass firing unless prompted...

Well, Duhhh! We all feel bad for everyone that was RIFed, but the 1108 represents the 70 PILOTS only. Get a clue would you? It is too bad that they don't have representation, but I guess they can all individually talk to management if they want to. I for one am glad that I do have representation, and that is why I started this thread.

 

[B19 Flyer]

True the pilot has no control over this type of issue. The mechanic and IA both have certificates on the line and the NTSB will find anything in an investigation.
Hence:
Title:Oklahoma Aircraft Mechanic and Aircraft Parts Broker Sentenced for Falsification of Records in Connection with Improper Aircraft Engine OverhaulsDate:September 28, 2007Type:InvestigationSummary:On September 28, 2007, Larry G. Good and Robert E. Parker were sentenced in U.S. District Court, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Larry Good was sentenced to serve 14 months of incarceration and 12 months probation, as well as ordered to pay $306,990 in restitution. Mr. Parker was sentenced to serve 72 months of incarceration and 36 months of probation, as well as ordered to pay $378,633 in restitution. The investigation revealed that Mr. Good, a certified aircraft mechanic, along with Mr. Parker, a self-employed aircraft parts broker, falsified entries in aircraft logbooks in connection with the overhaul of aircraft engines. They were aware the engines were not overhauled properly, contained replacement parts that were marked "not airworthy," or were simply unsafe for use on an aircraft.

So, just like a pilot these folks have something to lose as well. The pilots just pay with their lives at times. Oh yea then the family's civil lawsuits against said individuals. Yea it is worth it....
I have never-ever had a pax ask about a mechanic. They know and TRUST that I as the pilot will not put my certificate or safety on the line so they can get from A to B. It is just a long line of responsibilty...and the pilot is the LAST line of defense for safety.

The pilot is the last line of defense in what he can control. He can't control the maintenance done on the airplane, the fuel put into the airplane, the reliability of the data provided for flight planning or any of the other myriad of items that are accomplished everyday that make an airplane fly. For those items, he must rely on the people around him, (those nasty non-union workers) as a result.. as I said earlier, the pilot is only the end user.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 said a CEO contract a drop in the bucket....


United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006,
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported
by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL).


That's a big UPSIDE DOWN bucket.

You failed to mention that the "bucket" is around 5.5 billion in revenue a quarter (over 20 billion a year) with a pilot CBA grabbing over 6 billion of that revenue. (more than a complete quarter of all revenue went just to the pilot group in payroll and benefits)

Unlike the massive pilot collective bargaining agreement, Tilton's compensation was spread over several years via stock options and accepted by the board and stockholders of the company. Apparently the board felt the his talents were worth the investment and paid him market value.

By comparison to the 6 billion dollar pilot CBA, Tilton's compensation was indeed, a drop in the bucket.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It has been repeatedly demonstrated that FLOPS safety department has no teeth and it is the union's safety committee that has accomplished more for safety than management. Idiot.

Your first statement in the above quote affirms that the traveling public and aviators are better off that you lost your medical and are not in command or second in command of any aircraft. Did management have anything to do with how many survived on United 232? I said it before, the profession is better off without you......good riddance.

Your statements show the complete and utter ignorance you have of the industry and your best role is obviously that of a pilot, because you would fail in any larger or more responsible role where folks like me have been successful. You clearly don't understand the big picture.

Pilots are needed to fly airplanes, but are only as good as those around them.

You have chosen 232 as an example of brilliant flying, and that is a good thing.

UAL management had a huge role in the outcome of 232, but you ignored and failed to give credit for all the behind the scenes work of UAL flight control and the preparation of Sioux City responders when faced with the impending accident.

Hospitals and doctors were notified by UAL in advance and the responders had an opportunity to be proactive. There was tremendous teamwork on that accident that saved many lives and none of it should be downplayed as you have in your post.

 

[B19 Flyer]

April 9, 2007​

RE: United Airlines CEO and executive compensation
Dear Representative:
The alarming growth in wage disparity between executives and workers in this country is in critical need
of Congressional attention. I call your attention to a gross example of this disparity that is emerging at
United Airlines, where I represent 17,000 Flight Attendants in the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA.
United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,
perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and
awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging
wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported
by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL).
The United CEO and senior executive compensation package outpaced other corporate executive
compensation by large margins. The Corporate Library, a corporate governance watchdog group,
surveyed the proxy filings of 1,000 large U.S. companies and found that overall CEO compensation in
increased at a rate of 16% in 2005 and 9.29% in 2006. By comparison, UAL Securities and Exchange
Commission filings show Tilton and his suite of senior executives received increases in compensation
equaling 40% on a year-over-year basis, as well as bonuses throughout the company’s bankruptcy.
This troubling trend continues post-bankruptcy, in addition to generous stock rewards. The Institute for
Policy Studies – United for a Fair Economy, reported in 2006 that executive wages were 411 times the
average pay of workers. At United, Mr. Tilton’s executive compensation is 1,000 times what a Flight
Attendant earns on average at the top of the pay scale, or over 2,000 the pay of a new hire.
The airline industry is expected to report record profits in 2007 after a traditionally slow first quarter.
The Air Transport Association (ATA), an airline trade group, conservatively forecast industry annual
profits to be $4 billion this year, and some analysts predict that the industry could top the record profits
of approximately $5.4 billion set in 1999. The dedication, sweat and sacrifice of all United employees
have led United Airlines on the road toward sustained profitability. Shared sacrifice must now equal
shared rewards. We are insisting that United Airlines executives uphold this premise promulgated by
them during the course of bankruptcy and share the financial rewards management currently enjoys.
The House Financial Services Committee proposed legislation (H.R. 1257) would let shareholders
register disapproval of executive pay packages without the government directly regulating pay. This
legislation is a step in the right direction and we encourage you to support it. We also believe that more
must be done to provide solutions for workers who are suffering at the hands of executive greed.
We call on Congress to act and end the disparity that exists between worker and executive
compensation.
Sincerely,
Greg Davidowitch, President​

United Master Executive Council

Now there is a reliable source of information. :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well, I hate to tell ya that those apples are causing the oranges to go bankrupt because none of them will charge the true costs to cover expenses and make a profit.
Keep in mind that both groups agreed to the CBA. You make it sound like the union just did the old grab and run.
I understand you don't like unions...but unfortunatly in this and many other industries they are a much needed protection from greedy groups that would have them working for min wage.

You can't compare large international operators using multiple fleet types to LCCs with single fleet types using small aircraft. It's apples and oranges. Legacy carriers were for the most part are profitable internationally but the wages and compensation in the CBA carry over into the domestic markets. This doesn't include the expense of operating large aircraft, CAT 3 certification, training and maintenance expense. That is why legacy carriers have given up on domestic and are concentrating on the profitable international markets. Apples and oranges.

Oh, and in the late 90's it was grab and run, times were good. When times got bad, the unions put their heads in the sand and dragged the carriers down with them.

Big picture stuff, I know.. it's hard for many pilots (not all) to comprehend.

 

[AeroBoy]

B19, this is the fractional threads. The fractional industry is NOT the same as the airline industry. Other than the fact that airlines and the frax both fly airplanes, their business models and operations are worlds apart. If you want to rant about airline unions, I suggest you post on the Majors and the LCC/Nationals threads.

Where are the moderators when you really need them?

 

[dime line]

United unions protest 'excessive' executive pay

• http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2007-03-27-united-unions-protest_N.htm#open-share-help

By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
In a rare joint protest, five unions at United Airlines issued a statement Tuesday complaining of low pay, short staffing and excessive executive compensation at the No. 2 airline.
The protest from unions representing 30,000 United employees came one day after the Chicago-based carrier reported 2006 executive compensation in a securities filing, and 14 months after it exited Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization.
United said its top five executives received $25.7 million in the form of cash, stock or exercisable stock options. Of that, CEO Glenn Tilton received $9.3 million, the filing said.
"Throughout United's bankruptcy, 'shared sacrifice' was the mantra employees heard from upper management," the unions' statement said. "Executives have failed to lead by example, as employees have watched these individuals collect millions of dollars worth of stock, pay raises and bonuses."
United's labor leaders say cost cuts made during the airline's three-year stay in bankruptcy are hurting customer service.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: United Airlines | Air Line Pilots Association | Chicago-based | International Association of Machinists | Jean Medina | CEO Glenn Tilton
Last year, United drew more complaints for every 100,000 passengers than any other airline, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.
"Many of our airports are severely understaffed in terms of gate agents, ramp workers and support staff," said Steve Derebey, Air Line Pilots Association spokesman.
The rank-and-file are still working under contracts negotiated during bankruptcy in which they took deep pay cuts.
United said Tuesday that its top executives took home less than what was reported because United's shares aren't worth what was estimated, and executives did not exercise all the options they could. United spokeswoman Jean Medina said Tilton received about half the $9.3 million reported.
Union leaders representing United's pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and other workers called on United's management to beef up profit-sharing, negotiate richer labor contracts sooner than scheduled and hire more help to relieve short staffing.
During bankruptcy, United slashed $7 billion from annual expenses. It shed 20,000 employees, 100 jetliners, $8 billion in debt and all its pension plans. After exiting bankruptcy on Feb. 1, 2006, United earned a $25 million profit for the rest of 2006.
United's largest union, the International Association of Machinists, representing customer service workers and others, was not part of Tuesday's statement and was expected to issue its own.
Medina said United has been working with the unions to address issues that concern them. United recently agreed to start paying pilots for their time when their flights are canceled, for example.
She said the airline won't move up scheduled contract talks. She noted United's executive pay plan was approved by a majority of the bankruptcy creditors committee, which included union members

 

[dime line]

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: August 11, 2008
The union representing pilots at United Airlines urged the chief executive, Glenn F. Tilton, to resign Monday, accusing him of steering the carrier down a path to poor customer service, employee morale and financial performance.
Skip to next paragraph

Charles Krupa/Associated Press
Glenn Tilton, United’s chief executive, was hired in 2002.



A spokeswoman for the airline, based in Chicago, did not immediately respond to an e-mail message seeking comment.
The pilots have stepped up criticism of United’s top executives, angry that they have not gotten additional compensation since their pay was reduced sharply during the company’s bankruptcy overhaul from 2002-6. Their pension was also terminated while the UAL Corporation, the parent of United Airlines, was under bankruptcy protection.
In a statement, the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association said United needs new leadership and it has started a Web site to draw attention to what it says have been Mr. Tilton’s failures since he took over in September 2002.
“Under Glenn Tilton’s tenure, United has gone from being the finest airline in the world, with the best route structure and safety record, to a shell of its former self,” said Steve Wallach, chairman of the pilots union’s executive committee. “He has had every opportunity to turn this company around, and tap the abilities of its first-class employees, but instead he has run it into the ground.”
The Transportation Department said last week that United had the second-worst on-time rate in June, with 59.3 percent of flights arriving at scheduled times. Over all, the nation’s airlines were on time more often in June compared with a year ago.
The United pilots union also cited a recent survey conducted by United showing that only 38 percent of United employees took pride in United, down 15 percentage points from 2006.
“This is not a personal attack on Glenn Tilton,” Mr. Wallach said. “These dismal numbers speak for themselves. They are a reflection of his inability to lead, his incompetence as a manager and his failure in virtually every category that can be measured. We have tried every conceivable way to convince him to invest in, and maximize the good will of, his employees. He has failed miserably.”
In March, United said it planned to ground as many as 20 airplanes, or 4 percent of its fleet, and further cut capacity in 2008 to soften the blow of soaring oil prices. At the time, United’s pilots criticized the plan, saying that “shrinking the airline to achieve profitability has been demonstrated to be a failed business practice.”


Any FLOPS pilot can relate to that last sentence!!!