How would you respond

[bulfinch]

Here is a true story...

I am a flight instructor at a southern California school that also does a bit of charter work. Recently we put a brand new CJ2 on the company’s charter certificate.

Facts:
1. The jet is privately owned.
2. The jet came with it's own very experienced pilot.
3. The owner lets the pilot manage the AC.
4. Our 135 certificate requires an SIC.

So the pilot asked me, a lowly instructor if I would like the job as SIC. He’s indicated that he should like to give the job to someone who is up and coming.. a foot in the door. He would train me in house (yes we would create the syllabus) I would get the experience on dead legs with him. And .. bonus... he was not only an instructor with Flight Safety but a Cessna flight sales demo dude. In other words he KNOWS the plane and can tech it.

So here is my dilemma. Today I was told (by the owners of the school, against the pilots wishes) I am forbidden, yes… forbidden, to accept any more flights on the Jet. Reason given: It's unfair to other instructors and flights should be rotated amongst instructors so everything is fair.

So who is SIC since we need one.

A family friend of the owners is tapped for the position. (again against the expressed desires of the pilot) and by the way this family friend is a furloughed Delta pilot. You know he'll love a job as SIC on a CJ.

Now, I know you don’t have every last little detail but dang, if I don’t feel screwed and at the least I'm hoping someone will send me a violin.

Who here has been violated like this. Should I martyr myself and give a months notice (to finish up the students I can and transfer those I can't) or should I just shut my pie hole, be thankful to have a job instructing, grab a six pack and be done with it...? I'm so pissed I can't think straight.

 

[Timebuilder]

Well, the day that you are no longer useful to the school would be your last day, right? They wouldn't keep you on for another month while you look for a new job, would they?

Take the SIC job, let someone else finish your students (just like what would happen if you were let go) and move on in your career.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

sounds hokey anyways...

yes the owners buddy will be flying the plane, no matter what the "Captain" wants....or what you want. Most single plane, owner run operations work like that.

I would keep your CFI gig and keep looking for something better...better to have ONE job these days then NONE. You see, you would do a flight or two then the owner would say "Hire my buddys kid" and BAMM...you're out of work.

oh yeah, and I would go get that 6 pack too...err...make it a 12 pack....

Dont sweat it, Citations are for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**s anyways.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Here is a true story...
Facts:
1. The jet is privately owned.
2. The jet came with it's own very experienced pilot.
3. The owner lets the pilot manage the AC.
4. Our 135 certificate requires an SIC.

So the pilot asked me, a lowly instructor if I would like the job as SIC.

So here is my dilemma. Today I was told (by the owners of the school, against the pilots wishes) I am forbidden, yes… forbidden, to accept any more flights on the Jet.

So who is SIC since we need one.

A family friend of the owners is tapped for the position. (again against the expressed desires of the pilot) and by the way this family friend is a furloughed Delta pilot. You know he'll love a job as SIC on a CJ.

Who here has been violated like this. Should I martyr myself and give a months notice (to finish up the students I can and transfer those I can't) or should I just shut my pie hole, be thankful to have a job instructing, grab a six pack and be done with it...? I'm so pissed I can't think straight.

The Owner of the aircraft will probably have the final say in all this, so you must convince him you're the best choice. I doubt he or the PIC wants to spend all the time and money necessary to qualify all the Instructors as SIC, so he would be wise to choose one candidate.

Since the pilot manages the aircraft for the owner, you must convince him. Take him to lunch and let him know your desire for the position full time. He'll have to convince the owner that you're a better choice than the furloughee (don't assume the furloughed pilot would object to the position. Many are doing anything they can to make ends meet, even selling used cars.)

Don't waste energy getting upset with the Flight School owners. One of the other Instructors might've complained, and management is merely responding as our society has conditioned them - if someone has a good deal, everyone must have it. You probably didn't say anything to make them jealous, but look to see if there was something you did that they might have misunderstood.

If you're offered the job, ask the owner/PIC if he wants you to continue instructing part time for a given time. Then go to the flight school with your decision.

I wish you success!

 

[p.b.]

Will the SIC job pay your bills? If you are only flying the jet 6 days a month, it may be difficult to survive without a CFI gig.

If you can afford it I'd take the SIC job!

 

[501261]

If you're happy instructing at the school, I would simply pretend the jet never came around and keep instructing. No sense in burning any bridges for what is in my opinion a pretty crappy SIC job.

I know it’s hard to think straight when you have jet fever, but really from the outside looking in I'd be wary of this jet job.

Seems to me like the owner is going to try and micromanage this airplane- that's a good way to way to get rid of pilots because they will quit as soon as they get a better offer. When the captain quits where does that leave you?

Also, seems like the owner is either a cheapskate or doesn't have enough money to own the airplane, that's why he put it on a 135 certificate.

Since the CJ can be flown single pilot, and yours is probably flown single pilot on 91 legs, why do you think this owner is going to pay you a respectable salary.

This whole deal looks like something that will come back and haunt you down the road. Say you quit the flight school on bad terms; you get a good 3 months (90 hours of jet time) in, when all of a sudden Captain and Delta-guy come at odds about the best place to take the airplane for an inspection. Captain quits, Delta-guy takes over, but refuses to carry the owner’s bags, because he got his recall letter. A month later the owner decides the airplane business if too much of a headache with all the bills and pilot egos, so he simply sells the CJ, leaving you out on the street. "Citation-Owner LLC" is erased from all the books and you now have no references for future employers (or the FAA) that you were ever an SIC for "Citation-Owner LLC". The only aviation reference you have is the flight school and when a prospective employer calls them and asks the final and always asked question "Would you re-hire bullfinch if given an opportunity?" If the answer comes back no, I know that's cost quite a few people a job.

Have a few, get a good nights sleep, then wake up with that positive attitude that put you in this situation in the first place and don’t create any issues. Whatever happens happens. With only 700 hours you should plan on instructing for another year before even contemplating these desperation moves.

 

[English]

Ditto what 501261 wrote.

Besides, as far as I know, all the FSDOs in SoCal treat the CJ as a single pilot airplane for 135 purposes. Especially the CJ2. Does this CJ2 have a CVR in it? SIC time in a CJ will get you nowhere unless they type you...if they need the aircraft on 135 they are likely too cheap to type you.

Besides, what the owner wants, the owner gets. The Delta friend will probably get the gig. Doesn't matter what the pilot managing the plane wants.

 

[bulfinch]

Thanks all I knew I would find clear(er) advice here.

After reading the posts I think 501261 is absolutely right on the money. I'm being way too short sighted about this. I would do much better to keep my reputation, paycheck and career in good order than sacrifice it on what most likely will become a hugely volatile situation in exchange for a bit of CJ time.

And I guess I should update my profile, I have 1700TT now so I 'm not completely making an early leap.

Thanks

 

[DAL737FO]

Some things I find absolutely amazing about this thread is the fact that the other guy is a Delta furloughee seems to hold him in contempt. Do you guys believe that people are just born Delta, or any other, pilots? Give me a break. So YOUR flight school forbids you to fly the freaking airplane and a furloughee gets to fly it in the interim and it's the furloughee's fault. Grow up my friend. Make a decision and stick to it.

Former DAL737FO
was never handed anything

 

[501261]

DAL737FO,

I certainly apologize for making seem like I hold the "Delta-guy" in contempt. Nothing could be further from the truth; I know we're all just trying to get by. I wish the specific guy in the example nothing but the best.

This situation is simply a pet peeve of mine since I have gone through it, where the owner is micromanaging his flight department. Unfortunately this situation is rather prevalent in small operations.

Just look at this specific example the owner is getting advice from the captain, flight school owner, "delta-guy", probably a broker, etc. Personally, if this was my operation, I'd tell the flight school to F off, and put who ever I want in the right seat. If the flight school didn't like that, I've got news for them there are too many charter companies that would be happy to place a CJ on there certificate. I'd also have a long sit down with the owner and explain to him that you hired me to run your flight department, if you are unhappy with my performance please feel free to ask other people for there advise, but by asking there advise I would have to believe that you are unhappy with my performance and will start looking for other opportunities.

I've been in a situation where the owner hired a family friend for an SIC (nice low-time guy, actually was a good hire, but that's not the point), and constantly asked other people for there opinions. I left there after 6 months; the owner to this day still calls up and asks for my advice my response to him "Sir, I believe your chief pilot can best answer that question."

Unfortunately for this poor captain, anybody and everybody is a pilot and has an opinion on the best way to run his flight department.

 

[avbug]

It doesn't appear you have a choice in the matter. It's not your airplane, and it doesn't belong to the pilot who is flying it right now, either. You don't work for that pilot, and he doesn't have the option of hiring you. You work for the company that holds the 135 certificate, ergo you do whatever they tell you to do. The pilot flying the airplane will also be employed under that certificate, and he will fly with whomever he is told to fly.

Therefore, you have no say, and neither does he. He may have some influence, but from your comments this appears to not be the case.

While it's a big juicy carrot dangling before you, remember that at this stage you're in the infancy of your career. The chances of a position coming up for you are typically very slim, and like most of us in the industry, you have a long way to go. Be content with having a job. You'll see a dozen more opportunities like this come and go, perhaps many more than that. It's just the way things go.

 

[cherokee]

Take the job if you can convinve the chief pilot to give you the position. SIC jet is SIC jet, just because a plane is capable of being operated single pilot doesn't mean it has to be. Get the job, offer your sevices to the flight school part time and get the best of both worlds if possible...

 

[bulfinch]

Again, thank you all for responding.

In retrospect I should not have mentioned the Delta name, he could have been from any company and he is just trying to get by like myself and all of us. At the time I wrote this I definitely had a slant against him (although I have never met him) for a perceived slight against my forward progress. I still have not met him and most likely never will. The comment was unprofessional and out of line.

My best guess is that this jet will be at another organization within two months. Between the owner of the school and the pilot/ manager of the airplane I believe there is just way too much animosity for a constructive resolution.

My decision is to step away form the whole affair... let everyone cool down and if the aircraft is still with us in a few weeks (meaning I was wrong about the previous paragraph) try to get all the party’s to reach a comfortable arrangement with me in the right seat. If that doesn't happen then no big deal, I still have a job instructing and given enough time, I will find something else. Hopefully out of VNY.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'd wouldn't think twice about it....take the citation gig. It will do more for your career in the long run than anything you're doing now.

 

[731convert]

I was in a similar situation about 8 years ago. Flight instructing and flying a citation. I did both for at least 6 months. Flying that jet was a lot more fun than insrtucting in a BE-76. So I quit the instructing and stuck with the Citation. I then got a worthless 30hrs as a radio operator. With worthless in house training I had I wasn't qualified to do anything but instruct. Made me so bitter I almost quit aviation. Went on to 135 piston freight and really learned to fly before I got back in a jet.

You will have to do what you want to do. To heck with all of our slanted ideas about what you should do. The decision you make could make a large impact on your career. What ever you decide needs to be 100% yours.

Good luck!!

 

[400A]

cj 2

Co-pilots ARE required for turbo-jet far 135 operations,, how ever in corporate it is the GOLDEN RULE...

HE WITH THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES!

If the owner wants the other pilot he will have him.. He could be planning on replacing the PIC.

Keep instructing, and always have a good attitude aroud the owner and BOTH pilots. The owner may become more comfortable with you,, it sounds like a mess though. If you dont handle this just right you could burn 2 bridges.

Best of luck.

 

[English]

400A,

No no no they aren't!!! (Rant over)

Co-pilots are NOT required in the CJ2 for 135 ops.

There is an authorization for the use of autopilot in lieu of an SIC in the ops specs of many a CJ operator.

Without a CVR, our FSDO will not allow us to have SICs in our CJ2 (more than six seats with a belted potty...)

 

[400A]

English

My bad, I looked it up and see they have changed that reg. That is the way we used to do it in the King Air. It used to be a Turbojet blanket, but I see they have changed it to the way the aircraft is type certificated.

Based on the new o2 regs, do you have to hang the mask at FL250, as we do if there is only one on the flight deck?

Thanks for the heads up, I had not payed attention to that one since we have to have 2 pilots.

Has anyone gotten the waiver on a Premier?