How to be a successful CFI

[acaTerry]

I think "leave it out here". This is good stuff and will only better things overall.
About the guy saying not to befreind your students, something he forgot is that you will also find yourself giving free instruction "by accident" in the situations he described. Good advice.

 

[bobbysamd]

More on being a flight instructor

Don’t become best friends with your students. You will have students who are the nicest people in the world but you must maintain a professional boundary . . .

That is superior advice. It is called maintaining an arm's length relationship. You must keep your distance or you will lose your objectivity. If you lose your objectivity (and authority) your ability to teach your students will be, at best, impaired.

This doesn't mean that you cannot go to lunch with your students, but you must avoid overt socializing (shall I say "fraternizing"?) with them. You have to view the instructor-student relationship in the same terms as a doctor-patient relationship or an attorney-client relationship. In other words, your students are your customers and clients and not your buds.

Never get complacent and remember, we are all lifetime students. If you feel you will never have anything more to learn, then its time to get out of the business.

That goes without saying. And, another reason why the learning you will gain as a flight instructor will truly blow your mind.

Preach PTS guidelines to your students like its the bible A good book read was “Eye of the Examiner” by Howard Freid, he gives a DE perspective of a check ride, and takes a lot of the unknowns out for you and your students.

To a very large degree, you have to think like an examiner. That is not to say that you should train your students to pass a specific examiner's check ride; you should always be training your students to be safe pilots. The PTS is the test. No surprises. Even if you disagree about how the PTS says something should be done, or the examiner or your student disagrees, as long as something is executed per the PTS the examiner has to pass your student.

Where can I find that book?

Know one likes a know it all or someone who appears to have no life outside being a CFI. Drink a beer with your fellow CFI after a hard day and talk about something other then work.

We had a particular instructor at Riddle who was especially anal. His desk was buried in a corner. He always talked about how he got up at 3:30 every day to start work at 5, leaving at 9 or 10 p.m. (he also habitually blew the 8 hours in 24-hour rule). The guy was friendly, but unbelievably intense. He needed a life. So do you.

Enjoy the experience. You'll be surprised at the stories about instructing that you share later in your career.

 

[Toy Soldier]

CFII tech tip

Here is a tech-tip for the part-time CFI's out there:

1. Use an instrument syllabus.

2. Introduce your students to each other over coffee or tea one day so that they can be safety pilot resources for each other.

3. Schedule your "required 15 hours" with them as often as possible. However, let the students fly with each other "in the mean time" while "practicing" the lessons in sequence.

"In other words, you might do lessons 1 through
3, then the students might fly together for
lessons 4 through 5, then you again at lesson 6, etc."

This way the students are still following a syllabus and structured training instead of "wandering" around the skies while trying to "log the other required 25 hours" with a safety pilot. They will also not be hindered because we can't fly with them this week.

This scenerio assumes that YOU won't be giving the student all of the required 40 hours of instrument training.

I have 4 private students rolling into 6 instrument students that are working it out this way. It also helps that the 6 students have 3 airplanes (non-flight school) between them to share!

HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT IT:

1. When training a group of instrument students, schedule regular ground school with the group as a whole. Charge the full "hour rate" to each student.

2. Sell the GLEIM syllabus kits to your students.

3. Find students with their own planes so you can charge the $45/hr and not split it with the FBO.

 

[Whirlwind]

3.) Don’t become best friends with your students.

What about dating your CFI?

That obvious danger zone set aside, I became friends with one of my former CFIs and slowing becoming friends with my current one. The key is to switch the instructor/student mode on and off, and to be willing to accept instruction one minute and be friends the next. Not everyone can do it however.

Drink a beer with your fellow CFI after a hard day and talk about something other then work.

What about drinking a beer with your CFI after a hard day of flying?

Fly Safe!

 

[stillaboo]

Re: CFII tech tip

HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT IT:
1. When training a group of instrument students, schedule regular ground school with the group as a whole. Charge the full "hour rate" to each student.

You may be making $, but you are cheating your students out of it too. You are worth $45 for 1 hour of instruction in the plane or on the ground, but when you are instructing me you are instruting me, not getting paid by me to answer questions others have for you. I pay a full rate for your full attention. I say this is double-dipping.

When I read your ideas, it chaffes me from a student perspective, honestly. Maybe I'm not in touch with reality, but out of the 16 or so instructors I've ever flown with (both part 61 and 141) I can confirm that at least 12 of them fly 121 now. Incidentally, the 4 that I'm not sure of were by far the 4 worst instuctors I had (all part 61, 2 different schools), and all seemed to be more interested in churning fees than teaching me.

This thread gives me the impression that all instuctors who want to fly for the majors whore themselves out to students, and a higher standard is to be found, that of the instructor who's always looking to make another $ through any means necessary- both assumtions are wrong (well, I know the first one is, though it's being perpetuated by CFI's in this thread!)

I'm sure you guys are all good guys who put the student's needs before your wallet, but this thread doesn't seem to reflect that from what I read. Please show me where I'm reading you wrong (though we'll have ta agree to disagree on the full fee for each student in a group ground).

-Boo!

 

[Toy Soldier]

stillaboo

You point of view is understood. You have to take these basic "ideas" and adapt them to the individual situation. IE: Depending on what you are teaching you can adjust your rate accordingly.

The point you have about feeling ripped off when you have to pay high dollar rates is taken. On the flip side, the general public expects CFI's to work for minimum wage and not charge for ground, etc. Students will "watch the clock" with a vengeance and some will even say that they are NOT paying for ground.

The CFI's time is valuable as well. Also, students need to understand that the CFI has "high" liability concerns. Once I sign your logbook for training I can be liable for "a time" if you screw up! Why would I want to give that away for free.

If you saw in my posts earlier, I mentioned that I do give discounted rates for block time paid, etc. I have a guy paying for two sons so I give him a discount - I still don't work for free though.

POINT. We CFI's are providing valuable, and sometimes expensive required training to teach students how to navigate in the national airspace system in sometimes complicated airplanes, using complicate rules and regulations, etc. Why wouldn't we be paid accordingly? After all, we are not providing a simple "lawn maintenance" service.

Take the above "ideas" and make them work for you and your student. The ideas are there to help you generate your own ideas for success. They are not GOLDEN RULES that must be followed to the letter...

My point is to NOT work for free while signing your liability (estate) away! Also, golf pros get $75 for a 1/2 hour session to hit little white balls across a field. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that there is much, if any liability there.

Above all, I am advocating that the CFI give "top dollar, professional" instruction and while NOT watching the clock either.

Good luck in your endeavers. I hope this explanation made a little sense.

 

[stlpilot]

quote:

"I'm sure you guys are all good guys who put the student's needs before your wallet, but this thread doesn't seem to reflect that from what I read. Please show me where I'm reading you wrong (though we'll have ta agree to disagree on the full fee for each student in a group ground)."


When you take a college course every student pays the $$ per credit hour for a group class. Sure the instructor does not get more $$, but it’s somewhat the same principle. If they're any good, a CFI is a highly knowledgeable, highly trained individual who has worked hard to earn the title. In my region only 10% of the initial applicants passed on their first attempt for a CFI license. Sure you will find a bum CFI here and there, Iv seen plenty of them who just use student for time and could care less about quality control. They are out there and they give the good guys a bad rap. But most CFI's are good people and many are exceptional teachers who students can learn life saving lessons from. $45 is not what I charged back when I was giving instruction but I have no objections to that amount, so long as the CFI is doing a good job. As it was said above, flight instruction is not giving golf lessons or mowing lawns, CFI's are DIRECTLY responsible for the quality control of pilots who enter the system. This is huge! Think about how many pilots are flying right over our heads, or your loved ones houses, and without the proper training they could crash right into their backyard or worse. No one thinks about that fact to often because it does not happen much, and thats a good thing. CFI's not only teach but they are mentors, leaders, and looked up to by their students. A CFI can easily turn a raw fresh student into a maniac with a 2000 lb bomb just waiting to explode. That’s a HUGE burden to take on. CFI's are not just responsible for the safety of their student but of the general public as well. We are the first, last, and one of the few defenses from keeping good pilots up in the air and keeping bad pilots down. Ask the FAA they will tell you the exact same thing. And if a student does screw up bad enough, the CFI will take the hit and possibly never fly again, that is a lot of responsibility. You better believe your gonna pay me for what I’m worth, because I’m gonna make sure John Doe student pilot is not gonna have my ratings taken away and more important Im gonna keep him alive so long as he listens to me and applies what he learns. So if Larry the lawyer from "Duwee Cheat em and How" gets $500 per hour for simply giving advice or counsel then a CFI should not feel guilty or feel like he is "whoring" by charging his/her class each $45 per hour or a set group fee for the entire class. Its highly specialized instruction and training and you should get what you pay for. Rarely have I seen a profession that the expert is so underpaid but expected to be so highly proficient.

quote:

" When I read your ideas, it chaffes me from a student perspective, honestly. Maybe I'm not in touch with reality, but out of the 16 or so instructors I've ever flown with (both part 61 and 141) I can confirm that at least 12 of them fly 121 now. Incidentally, the 4 that I'm not sure of were by far the 4 worst instructors I had (all part 61, 2 different schools), and all seemed to be more interested in churning fees than teaching me. "

If that was your true impression of those schools, I hope you left the school immediately. May I ask why you went through 16 instructors? I’m not making accusations, but that would raise flags to me. There could be a perfectly good explanation, I’m just curious as to why. Not all instructors want to fly for airlines, I personally never wanted to. I knew I was going military from day one of being a CFI and even before that. And just b/c a CFI goes to a 121 operation does not mean they were good CFI's or pilots. I may be missing your points but I’m just going off the impression you leave on your post ( humm, were have I heard that line before). Anyway we do understand the students point of view, we were there and any decent CFI knows we are all students for life. Except the CFI's probably have less money then you do, so we know what it means to have little or no money. So go easy on the hard working CFI, it’s not a cheap business nor will it ever be.

 

[stillaboo]

quote:
Its highly specialized instruction and training and you should get what you pay for.

And highly specialized training can only effectively be done one-on-one, which is why I object to full fare for all students in a group ground. My opinion.

May I ask why you went through 16 instructors? I’m not making accusations, but that would raise flags to me.

I knew this would happen, but, whatever.

My first CFI went to the airlines. My 2nd CFI churned fees. I reloacted to another area of the country. My 3rd and 4th CFI's were both part of a part 61 school, and somehow managed to convince me that I needed 4-5 'mock checkrides', 2 with each of them, and then one with the chief pilot of the school, my 5th CFI.This instruction was of very poor quality, and has generally left me with the impression that part 61 CFI's are low on knowledge and high on getting into my pockets for $, based soley on my own pwersonal experiences. I got my private and left ASAP.
From then on, I was in a 141 school where I had a CFI assigned to me for each stage of the program (4 stages, 4 CFI's, my 6th-10th). You were prohibited from having the same CFI for more than 1 stage. I also had stage checks with other CFI's to independently evaluate my progress, and flew with a couple other CFI's on occasion when my assigned CFI was unavailable (standardized program, allowing for one CFI to pick-up where the other left off, or at least fill in for a flight or two). I figure that accounts for the other 6, making a total of 16. None of the 141 instructors ever churned fees, and all are at a 121 carrier now (I believe this thread seemed to suggest that guys who teach to build time are inherently inferior instructors to 'professionals' who don't teach for time, so the fact that every single one of my instructors that I found to be of high quality now being at a 121 carrier is of relevance). Perhaps my experience speaks more to the quality of my program than the quailty of my CFI's, but I found each of them to be excellent, and the rigid sylabus and standardization seemed to help bring out the best in them. It is for this reason that I will always recommend going 141 over part 61; the quality of the instruction I personally recieved at the 141 school served to accentuate all the weaknesses of the 2 different part 61 programs I was involved with. Since then, I have found that the level of professionalism at the part 61 schools I have used to rent aircraft wasn't up to the same standards as the 141 school. Incidentally, I wasn't ever charged for ground at the part 61 schools, but was charged a fee at the 141 school (the instructor got his fee, and the students divided it up amounst themselves. This often resulted in 4-5 guys doing ground together, which worked out well for everyone. The students learned the required material, and the instructors -who generally hated teaching ground - didn't have to teach the same ground lesson 3 times a semester).

Due to my personal experience, when I read posts about how CFI's can max out their paychecks through the raising of fees and aggressive marketing, it just reminds me of my own personal expereince with part 61 CFI's. Yes, a couple bad apples probably spoiled the bunch for me, but my own personal experiences have shown me that part 61 CFI's are generally un-professional $ hungry guys who have poor knowledge of the FARs and huge egos, so when I read advice from one CFI to another on how to maximize income, it's just hard for me to remain objective.

I understand I probably had a bad experience and most CFI's are not like this, but the advice I was reading on this thread served only to remind me of the worst aspects of my training experience, and I felt that all the cheer-leading going on on this thread needed to be tempered with a view from the outside looking in at all this. Like I said, I think I was reading it the wrong way, and wanted clarification - not for me (I'm not in that phase of flying anymore), but for the others who read this thread and share a similar expeience with $ hungry CFI's.

Sorry for getting off topic. CFI's shouldn't be struggling to pay bills considering the responsibilities they carry, but it's a functon of supply and demand right now. There's allot of CFI's looking for work, and in that kind of environment, it's hard to raise rates.

-Boo!

 

[Toy Soldier]

It's hard for me to see where my original post lead anyone to think that I was a "money hungry" CFI. Which I am! Heck, I work for a living too! Even at my day job I am always trying to become more valuable so I can get a raise.

BUT, if you notice, out of the 35 or so ideas that I posted originally, ONLY about 3 or so say something about money. Most of them talk about being the "best, or a good" CFI.

In my humble opinion, if we strive to be the best then the compensation will follow.

Also, the ideas are there to help others find ways to make money. Believe me, that's what EVERY business or professional is out there doing.

Remember from business class in college, businesses are in business to make money - nothing short of it. However, their mainstay is to provide a valuable good or service.

I agree with you stillaboo. To take it one step further, CFI's need to be worth more than the rate that they are charging!

 

[SkyGuyEd]

Due to my personal experience, when I read posts about how CFI's can max out their paychecks through the raising of fees and aggressive marketing, it just reminds me of my own personal expereince with part 61 CFI's. Yes, a couple bad apples probably spoiled the bunch for me, but my own personal experiences have shown me that part 61 CFI's are generally un-professional $ hungry guys who have poor knowledge of the FARs and huge egos, so when I read advice from one CFI to another on how to maximize income, it's just hard for me to remain objective.

Have to strongly disagree with you here! I've done both 141 and 61; my experience was that 61 worked out much better for me. All that means is that you have to look at the instructor as an individual, not the FAR part he or she instructs under.

I also disagree with charging full fare for the entire group. Maybe a cut rate (totaling more than individual instruction), but not full fare! Doing a cut rate, everybody wins: students get group instruction for less, and the instructor takes home much more per hour. Charging full fare for each student seems to only benefit the instructor... and the students will realize this.