How to be a successful CFI

[Toy Soldier]

stillaboo

You point of view is understood. You have to take these basic "ideas" and adapt them to the individual situation. IE: Depending on what you are teaching you can adjust your rate accordingly.

The point you have about feeling ripped off when you have to pay high dollar rates is taken. On the flip side, the general public expects CFI's to work for minimum wage and not charge for ground, etc. Students will "watch the clock" with a vengeance and some will even say that they are NOT paying for ground.

The CFI's time is valuable as well. Also, students need to understand that the CFI has "high" liability concerns. Once I sign your logbook for training I can be liable for "a time" if you screw up! Why would I want to give that away for free.

If you saw in my posts earlier, I mentioned that I do give discounted rates for block time paid, etc. I have a guy paying for two sons so I give him a discount - I still don't work for free though.

POINT. We CFI's are providing valuable, and sometimes expensive required training to teach students how to navigate in the national airspace system in sometimes complicated airplanes, using complicate rules and regulations, etc. Why wouldn't we be paid accordingly? After all, we are not providing a simple "lawn maintenance" service.

Take the above "ideas" and make them work for you and your student. The ideas are there to help you generate your own ideas for success. They are not GOLDEN RULES that must be followed to the letter...

My point is to NOT work for free while signing your liability (estate) away! Also, golf pros get $75 for a 1/2 hour session to hit little white balls across a field. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that there is much, if any liability there.

Above all, I am advocating that the CFI give "top dollar, professional" instruction and while NOT watching the clock either.

Good luck in your endeavers. I hope this explanation made a little sense.

 

[stlpilot]

quote:

"I'm sure you guys are all good guys who put the student's needs before your wallet, but this thread doesn't seem to reflect that from what I read. Please show me where I'm reading you wrong (though we'll have ta agree to disagree on the full fee for each student in a group ground)."


When you take a college course every student pays the $$ per credit hour for a group class. Sure the instructor does not get more $$, but it’s somewhat the same principle. If they're any good, a CFI is a highly knowledgeable, highly trained individual who has worked hard to earn the title. In my region only 10% of the initial applicants passed on their first attempt for a CFI license. Sure you will find a bum CFI here and there, Iv seen plenty of them who just use student for time and could care less about quality control. They are out there and they give the good guys a bad rap. But most CFI's are good people and many are exceptional teachers who students can learn life saving lessons from. $45 is not what I charged back when I was giving instruction but I have no objections to that amount, so long as the CFI is doing a good job. As it was said above, flight instruction is not giving golf lessons or mowing lawns, CFI's are DIRECTLY responsible for the quality control of pilots who enter the system. This is huge! Think about how many pilots are flying right over our heads, or your loved ones houses, and without the proper training they could crash right into their backyard or worse. No one thinks about that fact to often because it does not happen much, and thats a good thing. CFI's not only teach but they are mentors, leaders, and looked up to by their students. A CFI can easily turn a raw fresh student into a maniac with a 2000 lb bomb just waiting to explode. That’s a HUGE burden to take on. CFI's are not just responsible for the safety of their student but of the general public as well. We are the first, last, and one of the few defenses from keeping good pilots up in the air and keeping bad pilots down. Ask the FAA they will tell you the exact same thing. And if a student does screw up bad enough, the CFI will take the hit and possibly never fly again, that is a lot of responsibility. You better believe your gonna pay me for what I’m worth, because I’m gonna make sure John Doe student pilot is not gonna have my ratings taken away and more important Im gonna keep him alive so long as he listens to me and applies what he learns. So if Larry the lawyer from "Duwee Cheat em and How" gets $500 per hour for simply giving advice or counsel then a CFI should not feel guilty or feel like he is "whoring" by charging his/her class each $45 per hour or a set group fee for the entire class. Its highly specialized instruction and training and you should get what you pay for. Rarely have I seen a profession that the expert is so underpaid but expected to be so highly proficient.

quote:

" When I read your ideas, it chaffes me from a student perspective, honestly. Maybe I'm not in touch with reality, but out of the 16 or so instructors I've ever flown with (both part 61 and 141) I can confirm that at least 12 of them fly 121 now. Incidentally, the 4 that I'm not sure of were by far the 4 worst instructors I had (all part 61, 2 different schools), and all seemed to be more interested in churning fees than teaching me. "

If that was your true impression of those schools, I hope you left the school immediately. May I ask why you went through 16 instructors? I’m not making accusations, but that would raise flags to me. There could be a perfectly good explanation, I’m just curious as to why. Not all instructors want to fly for airlines, I personally never wanted to. I knew I was going military from day one of being a CFI and even before that. And just b/c a CFI goes to a 121 operation does not mean they were good CFI's or pilots. I may be missing your points but I’m just going off the impression you leave on your post ( humm, were have I heard that line before). Anyway we do understand the students point of view, we were there and any decent CFI knows we are all students for life. Except the CFI's probably have less money then you do, so we know what it means to have little or no money. So go easy on the hard working CFI, it’s not a cheap business nor will it ever be.

 

[stillaboo]

quote:
Its highly specialized instruction and training and you should get what you pay for.

And highly specialized training can only effectively be done one-on-one, which is why I object to full fare for all students in a group ground. My opinion.

May I ask why you went through 16 instructors? I’m not making accusations, but that would raise flags to me.

I knew this would happen, but, whatever.

My first CFI went to the airlines. My 2nd CFI churned fees. I reloacted to another area of the country. My 3rd and 4th CFI's were both part of a part 61 school, and somehow managed to convince me that I needed 4-5 'mock checkrides', 2 with each of them, and then one with the chief pilot of the school, my 5th CFI.This instruction was of very poor quality, and has generally left me with the impression that part 61 CFI's are low on knowledge and high on getting into my pockets for $, based soley on my own pwersonal experiences. I got my private and left ASAP.
From then on, I was in a 141 school where I had a CFI assigned to me for each stage of the program (4 stages, 4 CFI's, my 6th-10th). You were prohibited from having the same CFI for more than 1 stage. I also had stage checks with other CFI's to independently evaluate my progress, and flew with a couple other CFI's on occasion when my assigned CFI was unavailable (standardized program, allowing for one CFI to pick-up where the other left off, or at least fill in for a flight or two). I figure that accounts for the other 6, making a total of 16. None of the 141 instructors ever churned fees, and all are at a 121 carrier now (I believe this thread seemed to suggest that guys who teach to build time are inherently inferior instructors to 'professionals' who don't teach for time, so the fact that every single one of my instructors that I found to be of high quality now being at a 121 carrier is of relevance). Perhaps my experience speaks more to the quality of my program than the quailty of my CFI's, but I found each of them to be excellent, and the rigid sylabus and standardization seemed to help bring out the best in them. It is for this reason that I will always recommend going 141 over part 61; the quality of the instruction I personally recieved at the 141 school served to accentuate all the weaknesses of the 2 different part 61 programs I was involved with. Since then, I have found that the level of professionalism at the part 61 schools I have used to rent aircraft wasn't up to the same standards as the 141 school. Incidentally, I wasn't ever charged for ground at the part 61 schools, but was charged a fee at the 141 school (the instructor got his fee, and the students divided it up amounst themselves. This often resulted in 4-5 guys doing ground together, which worked out well for everyone. The students learned the required material, and the instructors -who generally hated teaching ground - didn't have to teach the same ground lesson 3 times a semester).

Due to my personal experience, when I read posts about how CFI's can max out their paychecks through the raising of fees and aggressive marketing, it just reminds me of my own personal expereince with part 61 CFI's. Yes, a couple bad apples probably spoiled the bunch for me, but my own personal experiences have shown me that part 61 CFI's are generally un-professional $ hungry guys who have poor knowledge of the FARs and huge egos, so when I read advice from one CFI to another on how to maximize income, it's just hard for me to remain objective.

I understand I probably had a bad experience and most CFI's are not like this, but the advice I was reading on this thread served only to remind me of the worst aspects of my training experience, and I felt that all the cheer-leading going on on this thread needed to be tempered with a view from the outside looking in at all this. Like I said, I think I was reading it the wrong way, and wanted clarification - not for me (I'm not in that phase of flying anymore), but for the others who read this thread and share a similar expeience with $ hungry CFI's.

Sorry for getting off topic. CFI's shouldn't be struggling to pay bills considering the responsibilities they carry, but it's a functon of supply and demand right now. There's allot of CFI's looking for work, and in that kind of environment, it's hard to raise rates.

-Boo!

 

[Toy Soldier]

It's hard for me to see where my original post lead anyone to think that I was a "money hungry" CFI. Which I am! Heck, I work for a living too! Even at my day job I am always trying to become more valuable so I can get a raise.

BUT, if you notice, out of the 35 or so ideas that I posted originally, ONLY about 3 or so say something about money. Most of them talk about being the "best, or a good" CFI.

In my humble opinion, if we strive to be the best then the compensation will follow.

Also, the ideas are there to help others find ways to make money. Believe me, that's what EVERY business or professional is out there doing.

Remember from business class in college, businesses are in business to make money - nothing short of it. However, their mainstay is to provide a valuable good or service.

I agree with you stillaboo. To take it one step further, CFI's need to be worth more than the rate that they are charging!

 

[SkyGuyEd]

Due to my personal experience, when I read posts about how CFI's can max out their paychecks through the raising of fees and aggressive marketing, it just reminds me of my own personal expereince with part 61 CFI's. Yes, a couple bad apples probably spoiled the bunch for me, but my own personal experiences have shown me that part 61 CFI's are generally un-professional $ hungry guys who have poor knowledge of the FARs and huge egos, so when I read advice from one CFI to another on how to maximize income, it's just hard for me to remain objective.

Have to strongly disagree with you here! I've done both 141 and 61; my experience was that 61 worked out much better for me. All that means is that you have to look at the instructor as an individual, not the FAR part he or she instructs under.

I also disagree with charging full fare for the entire group. Maybe a cut rate (totaling more than individual instruction), but not full fare! Doing a cut rate, everybody wins: students get group instruction for less, and the instructor takes home much more per hour. Charging full fare for each student seems to only benefit the instructor... and the students will realize this.

 

[Toy Soldier]

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Point of interest, the ideas listed in the first post are to simply help you generate your own ideas for success. Each idea has to be taken on it's own merit and adapted to fit individual situations. NOTHING written on the list is to be considered a RULE.

Also, if anyone has any "bullet ideas" to submit, then I will "update" my original post and add your items to the list.

Let's see how big the "Tips to be successful" list can become. After all, that was the intent of the original post.

Now, who has an item for #37?

 

[rubberducky]

Toysoldier,

Not raining on your parade that your a "master CFI", but is sounds like you just trying to screw people out of money based on the fact that your a "master CFI". Why not trying to build respect from you students and treat them with respect not as cash cows. Every other sentence is S@#! them for more money. You don't seem to specialize in anything (e.g) "teach tailwheel" amongst other things. Is this quality tailwheel or just "hack and slash" training? My tailwheel instructor had 6000 hours of tailwheel time in Alaska. He only charged $35/hour...

RD

"splash and GO"

 

[Toy Soldier]

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBBERDUCKY
Not raining on your parade that your a "master CFI", but is sounds like you just trying to screw people out of money based on the fact that your a "master CFI".

I charge students according to my experience, professionalism, liability and ratings.

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBBERDUCKY
Why not trying to build respect from you students and treat them with respect...

I have students that drive over an hour to train with me (at $45/hr). Even though they have schools in their backyards and could pay "CHEAPER" rates if they wanted to. When I ask them why, they say something about the quality of instruction that they "didn't" get at the "cheaper, more local" schools...

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBBERDUCKY
Every other sentence is S@#! them for more money.

Yes, I provide a professional service and expect to be paid for it. Charging for my services is not "shorting' the customers. NOT providing a "quality" product is. I also offer a free lesson to potential students so that can go and compare me to other CFI's. They ALWAYS come back at their own choice...

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBBERDUCKY
You don't seem to specialize in anything (e.g) "teach tailwheel" amongst other things.

I specialize in giving professional grade instruction. Hence, I have the "respect" that you mentioned above. I am also a highly sought after instructor...

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBBERDUCKY
Is this quality tailwheel or just "hack and slash" training? My tailwheel instructor had 6000 hours of tailwheel time in Alaska. He only charged $35/hour...

Rates vary anywhere from $25/hr to $65/hr in my area. I charge the median. A brand-spanking new CFI gets an average of 25/hr. Why shouldn't I get a raise for having significantly more experience than a "newly minted" CFI? Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, my rates went to $35 after I got my Master CFI and then to $45/hr after getting my ATP. I simply used those milestones to gauge my "pay raises".

Footnote, I have GIVEN away over 400 hours of multi-engine dual during the past two years trying to help out junior CFI's, student pilots of mine, fellow pilots, etc. I simply take them with me to "work" and give them dual during the ride. I believe in sharing my blessings with others. Therefore, I share my twin-engine time...

Like my original post said, "How to be a successful CFI". I am a successful CFI. I wouldn't be if I "shorted" my customers...

 

[BoDEAN]

bump

bump

 

[BoDEAN]

Two questions for the poster


6. Read the book "The Savy CFI".

7. Use Landings.com to target your students.


Can you give me the low down on this book? You say its worth buying/reading?

How do you use Landings.com to target your students?

 

[80/20]

BE SINCERE

An instructor certainly needs to prepare well, have good knowledge and possess strong delivery skills to do an effective job. However, as some of you have pointed out, something more is needed. To be effective, an instructor must be sincere. As long as you are obviously trying to do a good job and truly care about your students then they will be amazingly tolerant of weaknesses in both preparation and delivery. But give them a chance to suspect your sincerity and you lose effectiveness. Once lost, effectiveness is almost impossible to regain. What is sincerity? Sincerity may be defined as being open, honest and straightforward. A sincere instructor is confident enough to admit weaknesses, does not try to cover up his or her own mistakes and honestly says 'I am not sure about that, let me find out' - rather than giving a cover-up answer. Sincerity toward your students is reflected in your eye contact, enthusiasm and concern about each student as an individual. Sincerity toward the subject is judged by whether or not you seem involved and interested in the subject or topic of the lesson. You should also be sincere towards yourself. With sincerity toward yourself, I mean that you should care about your own performance. You should be concerned about how well you are doing your job and ask questions like 'am I doing the best job possible?' . Lack of sincerity in any of these areas will hinder effective learning.

 

[BoDEAN]

bump

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[100LL... Again!]

I charge somewhat on the ability to pay - yeah, kinda Marxist I suppose, but I'm a sucker for some struggling kid who's doing everything they can to make it.

I let the rich aircraft owners pay me for the full time, of course.

I'd call myself Robin Hood, but I'm stealin' from me...

I've charged over $50/hr on occasion, an with little complaint.

However, it is not necessary to have "the best possible instruction" in every instance. (I'll get flamed on this of course, even though I've been a CFI and trained pilots under 135 and 121.) Sometimes 'pretty good' is good enough.

I probably could get that 'master CFI with my current pass rate, but I never liked titles.

I would rather be remembered by of few of my proteges who really appreciated the knowledge I passed on.

I say thanks when people tell me that I'm a good instructor, but I often interpret that phrase as "Wow, I had fun flying today - thanks for coming along."

 

[Toy Soldier]

Gizbug

The book has a lot of great info/ideas in it. I read it twice. Yes, I say buy it.

As far as Landings.com goes, I do the following searches in the databases:

1. I search for private pilots and try to sell them on their instrument ticket. (local pilots)

2. I find pilots with airplanes and then try to sell them on their instrument ticket, flight reviews. (local pilots)

3. I search for twin owners.

4. Landings lets you search for pilots by town, city, etc...

5. Find instrument rated pilots in your area offer to do their IPC.

6. Etc...

It has a wealth of information in the datat bases.

Good luck!

 

[Toy Soldier]

100LL... Again!

Good morning!

Just in case you are interested, here is the link to the Master CFI program. It doesn't have anything to do with pass rates, however. It is a program that requires two years of certain activities to complete, must be completed every two years, and must have a portfolio reviewed by a board.

The link will take you to the requirements section.


http://www.nafinet.org/mastercfi/index.html

Blue skies..