How much are you hoping for?

[pilotyip]

I have nothing against what the NJ piltos are asking for, I have just said, I would be happy making a $100K/yr. As a pilot who has spend many times "between jobs", I would be worried about upsetting the apple cart.

 

[Diesel]

It's that worry about upsetting the apple cart that keeps pay low. Too bad i don't care about upsetting the apple cart either pay or shut the place down. I'm the one driving it.

 

[G4dude]

I would submit that the free market does not care what we believe adequate pay is. The market is utterly rational, and is affected by miriads of factors, uncluding number of pilots willing to work for whatever pay, availability of other jobs, quality of life in these jobs, state of the ecomomy, supply of owners, price and quantity of competion, and many other factors. Once again, the market does not care what we think our pay ought to be. If unions push pay too high through coercion, the company goes out of business. Look at the Legacy carriers.

 

[pilotyip]

G4dude, that is right you can not turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. Is a $90K flying airplanes better than a $35K job in the plumbing dept at Home Depot? I have a lot ex Navy friends who did the EAL, Braniff, etc. Went from $100K per year to $35K driving a bread truck route.

 

[miles otoole]

I would submit that the free market does not care what we believe adequate pay is. The market is utterly rational, and is affected by miriads of factors, uncluding number of pilots willing to work for whatever pay, availability of other jobs, quality of life in these jobs, state of the ecomomy, supply of owners, price and quantity of competion, and many other factors. Once again, the market does not care what we think our pay ought to be. If unions push pay too high through coercion, the company goes out of business. Look at the Legacy carriers.

I personally very much agree with the first 80% of your post. In today's world, it's the supply of qualified labor combined with competition which will significantly squeeze labor rates.
I don't necessarily agree with the fact that high labor rates forced the legacy carriers into the financial shape they are currently in, however.

 

[Checks]

While I agree that 100K is a sweet salary, 28K is just foolish. Then again, those guys, like the regional guys knew that going in. Notice I dont work at either because of the lousy pay. Maybe if more pilots decided not to work for those wages the wages might actually increase. Just a thought.

 

[brokea$$pilot]

i dont think military pilots earn much higher than the regional airline pilots but ofcourse your not in the military to make a bundle of money right? the only benefit i see is that you DO have a real pension flying in the military vs. a regional. over 30 years i think you would still do better financially at one of the better regionals. $25-115,000yr

 

[G4dude]

While I agree that 100K is a sweet salary, 28K is just foolish. Then again, those guys, like the regional guys knew that going in. Notice I dont work at either because of the lousy pay. Maybe if more pilots decided not to work for those wages the wages might actually increase. Just a thought.

I agree with the thrust of your comments. However, 28K is not foolish if someone is willing to work for that amount. The marketplace is not emotional, just ruthlessly rational. If nobody wants to fly for 28K, pay will go up. Period. G4dude has spoken.
Just remember, my opinions are subject to frequent ridicule, and rightfully so, but they belong to me!

 

[buttercup]

I agree with the thrust of your comments. However, 28K is not foolish if someone is willing to work for that amount. The marketplace is not emotional, just ruthlessly rational. If nobody wants to fly for 28K, pay will go up. Period. G4dude has spoken.
Just remember, my opinions are subject to frequent ridicule, and rightfully so, but they belong to me!

If you people think 100k is a good salary I feel sorry for you.. I made 100k in the past two months. Some of you self-worthless freaks need a dose of reality

 

[El Chupacabra]

If you people think 100k is a good salary I feel sorry for you.. I made 100k in the past two months. Some of you self-worthless freaks need a dose of reality

Yeah but how long do you think that card-counting in Atlantic City is going to fly?

 

[El Chupacabra]

deleted

 

[buttercup]

Yeah but how long do you think that card-counting in Atlantic City is going to fly?

Nah.. The stock market is a beatiful thing.. Ask Diesel I'm even making him some $$ too. 75% in one month!! God Bless America

 

[Diesel]

hey as214 you might want to give rattler some financial advice. He's been in this buisness 27years and he's still flying an emb110. Now that's just sad

 

[buttercup]

hey as214 you might want to give rattler some financial advice. He's been in this buisness 27years and he's still flying an emb110. Now that's just sad

Id fly a 172 if it paid 200 k a year

 

[Diesel]

yeah but with what airnow pays it's more like 35k a year.

You watching HEAT on Action. Now that's some money.

 

[Ivan]

Military pilots make an ass load more than the regionals. I left active duty 4 mos ago and now fly for a major. I took about a 40% pay cut. My bro is still on AD and makes about 2G more a month than me. The majors catch up very fast and then pass 'em, but a military Maj or LtC makes between 80K and 110K/ yr with the ACP (aviator continuation pay, aka "pilot bonus"), but that just got cut a little bit.

 

[igneousy2]

And military guys don't need to pay rent. They get a pension after 20 years, and if they come out early they are in the reserves, and when the industry tanks, they just volunteer to go back to active duty. Then they come back when it's all over like they never left.

 

[CatYaaak]

This is true. You must stop trying to tell NJA pilots that they are not worth what they are asking. We will determine what that is.

As someone who has always said you guys have gone to work for too little and that's counterproductive, and hope you'll get higher salaries, I'll have to agree with G4dude that it's the utterly rational marketplace that has the final say on whether what you believe you are worth is viable in your current position. Regardless of what you believe, the fractional scheme is a business model, and all business models in any industry are are in turn only viable depending on other outside, changing factors beyond your control and some that are. The fractional scheme serves a niche in the market, and as a for-profit business the costs of providing the service determines to a large degree how large or small that niche becomes. Keep in mine that NJA isn't the only player in that niche either.

It doesn't really matter what drives the costs up, but labor costs are indeed one of them. Unlike the airlines which need to staff heavily to make an aircraft fly even on a known, set schedule, pilot wages represent a healthy proportion of the labor costs in the fractional scheme due to the nature of what they sell; private on-demand air travel to any destination 24//7/365 while remaining within legality limits of duty times, etc. This means pilot coverage which translates into appx. 4.5 pilots per aircraft. Unlike the airlines, other personnel requirements such as ground handlers, huge numbers of F/As, baggage service, etc. etc. aren't needed to get the job done to the customer's satisfaction.

In comparison to your situation where you can sit at home drawing salary while 3.5 of your peers are getting paid to man the same switch, corporate flight departments where higher salaries exist are considered well-staffed with 3 pilots per aircraft, many have only 2, and a few (which I don't condone) hire one full-time and rely on contract workers. The need for support staff is streamlined, since although the scope of operations is far-flung, it's an internal, linear exercize focusing on a few aircraft, not broad-based like NJA's which must provide service to any of many thousands of customers who are contractually guaranteed they can just pick up the phone on a whim and an aircraft will be there in x amount of hours. Most importantly, a corporate flight department is not a for-profit operation; the flying in itself does not generate direct revenue. Unlike them, if NJA or any fractional doesn't develop new repeat customers, it will cease to exist.

Given these realities, and focusing on the final point regarding customers, it's they who will decide whether the model is viable by their willingness to sign the contract of "ownership". Because fractional serves a niche customers (and most are well-aware of what that niche is), if their needs fall much outside what makes economic sense (let alone other considerations they may find important), they'll charter aircraft instead, or simply operate their own private flight department. If they choose the latter because their useage falls above the high-end of the fractional niche, they can pay much higher salaries to their own pilots and still come out ahead on the ledger sheet because of lessened staffing requirements. That's where a lot of the discrepancy between corporate pilot salaries vs. fractional come in as well as issues of retention and individual companies' policies regarding wage increases for all their employees, not just the pilots.

So go for higher salaries by all means, you deserve it. But for those that don't want to burn the house down, temper the emotion and remember that the market is rational, and higher costs for the customer will also mean shrinking the niche delved out a heartless "markeplace". If the fractional scheme existed in an aviation vacumn, 4.5 150K per/year Ultra pilots per aircraft might work assuming other members of the labor force could be persuaded to maintain that standard. But the real world isn't a vacumn, and very few customers will be willing to support those costs because other alternatives exist, and their economic desirablity would squeeze the limits of the fractional niche down to nothing.

Just food for thought, and pointing out that a smaller niche = fewer jobs. Therefore the question (for those not willing to wield the burn-down torch) is not only "What do I think I'm worth", but also "What do the customers think my company's services are worth?". Customers ultimately decide how many jobs there will be, and unfortunately, your customers don't actually need you to provide what they want, you just happen to do it at the best price. Because they are well-heeled, they are about the least-captive customer base you can target. So like it or not, you're all in it together...pilots, management, everyone else. You play an integral role, but you're also an integral cost in a for-profit business.

Good luck. Staying rational will increase your chances of being lucky.

 

[murfdawg998]

If you people think 100k is a good salary I feel sorry for you.. I made 100k in the past two months. Some of you self-worthless freaks need a dose of reality

DUDE WHAT KIND OF FLYING JOB DO YOU HAVE?! don't give us popcorn w/out the butter...lets hear the rest; pros and cons

 

[murfdawg998]

disregard my previous post, as214...stock market, huh?? nice