How much are you hoping for?

[acaTerry]

yip,

What makes a jet F/O (programmer) any more or less talented than the PIC?

The CA is not paid more for their talent, they are paid for all the "Captain stuff and the ultimate rrsponsibility.

 

[pilotyip]

When there is problem with a flight, which of these do you think is the first question asked" #1 Who was the F/O? or #2 Who was the Captain? We all know someone who is a decent stick, but you would never trust them in the left with your kids on board the airplane. That is why the Captain gets the bigger bucks

 

[Ivan]

And military guys don't need to pay rent. They get a pension after 20 years, and if they come out early they are in the reserves, and when the industry tanks, they just volunteer to go back to active duty. Then they come back when it's all over like they never left.

Igneousy? Should be Ignorant. Where do you get the idea military pilots don't pay rent? We get BAH (housing allowance) but it rarely covers "the rent" (or the mortgage) anywhere I've been stationed. If you do live on base (and I'd say most don't), you don't get the BAH. You're not automatically in the reserves...you have to join a reserve unit or Guard unit if you want to keep flying military and keep getting paid. Yes, you can be called back to Active Duty, but that's not the same as still flying in the Reserves/Guard. If you DO volunteer to go back on active duty, it's not automatic they'll take you.

And it should be like they never left. What about the dudes that get recalled and have to go fight? Fair that they should take a hit from their regular employer? I hope I'm misreading your tone, but you sound a little bitter toward the military pilots and the route they took. Like I said, they get paid more than regional dudes, but a 3rd year F/O at a major airline makes more cash than a Squadron Commander (LtC), does 5% of the work, and has less than 1% of the responsibility.

 

[Ivan]

I should not have said "Ignorant." Sorry, dude.

 

[Majik]

Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

Type because you like to see your words on a public forum. If you're doing it for any other reason, you may be disappointed.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I seriously tried to stop but my fingers kept going...

 

[guido411]

The CA is not paid more for their talent, they are paid for all the "Captain stuff and the ultimate rrsponsibility.

Very good, Terry, you now understand the pilot heirarchy. But if you read the quote that you noted, you'll notice I never asked why the Captain is paid more than the FO. Yip implied that the SIC's "talent" is what is keeping him from being anything more than a CPA, teacher, or Doctor (and reaping those salaries), just because an SIC traditionally programs the boxes. Well whoopdie-do. I may be an SIC now but I still have about quadrouple the PIC hours than I do SIC hours (and not in 172s either for those of you who will speculate). So does this mean I just took a step backward in the talent pool? Seems so by yip's rationale.

The original question was asked about pay, so if you want the discussion to stay on pay, don't mention talent.

 

[BoilerUP]

Since nobody answered the original question save one or two, I'd like to ask it again:

What *realistically* would NJA pilots want to see their pay be, and what *realistically* do you think will be settled for? If you don't want to put your figures here, PM them to me.

Once again, no flame bait, just trying to get a gouge on the situtation.

 

[sweptwingz]

Boiler, estimates are all over the map, and the union hasn't released the recent pilot salary survey info. I'm going to need to see at LEAST NBAA high end wages for equipment, and full retro, or I'll be voting no. Many NJA pilots are holding out for higher wages. Will we get it? Who knows.

 

[Grizz]

The reason you're probably not getting much participation on this issue is most of us figure why should we tell everybody and their brother what our personal mins are? It doesn't make sense during negotiations.

 

[BoilerUP]

Thank you for the responses, gentlemen.

High-end NBAA ballpark will suffice. Good luck with the new union, and I hope you get most, if not all, of what you want.

 

[MalteseX]

Depends on the service, time in service and rank

A 20 yr Air Force pilot can make $138,000 give or take a few hundred. This rises to $144K this year.

It depends on the Service (AF $25K per year bonus until 20 yrs in Service), depends on time in service and rank (20 yrs) and location ($2100 tax free housing allowance). Broken down: This is for a 20 yr Lt Col that still gets a bonus: (in the future, bonuses are available, but they are only for the guys finishing their first pilot training commitment -- about the 10yr point; but the bonus is still 25k per year)

6,793.20 per month pay (base pay)
plus 184.00 per month food, etc.
plus 2100 housing (tax free)
plus 840 flight pay
plus 2083 bonus
Total approx 12,000 per month.


And after 20 a guy can retire and get half of the first figure above per month in retirement plus medical yada yada.
I just wanted to help clear up any misconceptions people have about military pay. It's good if you are a pilot and you've been in a while. True, the pay does stink for the first few years,

i dont think military pilots earn much higher than the regional airline pilots but ofcourse your not in the military to make a bundle of money right? the only benefit i see is that you DO have a real pension flying in the military vs. a regional. over 30 years i think you would still do better financially at one of the better regionals. $25-115,000yr

 

[Number$Cruncher]

See below.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Ok, I'll bite. Nobody should fly a jet for less than 60K. I do, and I think it's an insult. Also no CA should make less than 120K. Small jet or not, that's my opinion. You guys need to fight for what you think is right.

You are out of your mind.

 

[pilotyip]

Anyone notice something in common here, pay sucks the first few years in any job?

 

[Number$Cruncher]

...Customers ultimately decide how many jobs there will be, and unfortunately, your customers don't actually need you to provide what they want, you just happen to do it at the best price. Because they are well-heeled, they are about the least-captive customer base you can target. So like it or not, you're all in it together...pilots, management, everyone else. You play an integral role, but you're also an integral cost in a for-profit business.

Good luck. Staying rational will increase your chances of being lucky.

Probably the most rational, coherent posting I've seen on this subject yet posted on this board. Bookmark this one and send it anyone screaming for a $60K first year F/O job at NJA to read. Fractionals are a stepping stone to top-shelf corporate for the lucky few, regionals are a stepping stone to the majors...for the lucky few. Have a backup plan.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Fractionals are a stepping stone to top-shelf corporate for the lucky few, regionals are a stepping stone to the majors...for the lucky few. Have a backup plan.

And that is precisley what one of the main issues 82% of this pilot group had with the last TA. Me thinks the stone may be rasied a bit to a level closer to that of the "majors" or "top shelf" corp jobs. I see absolutley no problem having more great paying jobs in the aviation industry... there are already far too many crap pay jobs. Hell, I didn't get into this biz to have a back up plan.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

And that is precisley what one of the main issues 82% of this pilot group had with the last TA. Me thinks the stone may be rasied a bit to a level closer to that of the "majors" or "top shelf" corp jobs. I see absolutley no problem having more great paying jobs in the aviation industry... there are already far too many crap pay jobs. Hell, I didn't get into this biz to have a back up plan.

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you.

 

[FLYLOW22]

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you.

Too many stepping stones out there and not enough pilots with stones. No one asked for your pity... or opinion. But thanks for it anyway. Now back to work...

 

[Fracster]

Anyone notice something in common here, pay sucks the first few years in any job?

Yeah thats true, it just doesnt EVER get better at NJA.

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you

Reconsider what? Reconsider that he's right on, fine, I re-read his post and right on he is not.
Unless you understand the economics of the fractional industry then nothing makes sense. Any CPA worth his salt can make the books look the way NJA's do. NJA cannot show a 100 million dollar profit otherwise what would the perception be. NJA over charging its customers? The owners wouldnt stand for that. The owners perception is that we are highly paid atleast to industry or NBAA standards. Why do they think this.....because NJA and the sales force has repeatedly told them this. So what do you think will happen when they find out the truth.
NJA is a niche company, yes, that part is correct. But so is dunkin donuts or starbucks. For the most part NJA is cheaper than owning a brand new aircraft. Sure they can go buy a used 500 series, Lear or challenger but what will their operating cost be. Maybe less, maybe more depending on usage. There isnt anything wrong with being a niche company. Every company is a niche company. Take a moment and add the numbers up for what is charged, initial deposits, hourly fees, overhead, maintenance, etc. You have no idea what NJA is financialy capable of. Any salaries we request are completly within the scope of whats reasonable.

 

[Schrode]

Sometimes I wonder, who would get into aviation anymore? I see guys learning to fly, or doing 206 charter . . . How long will they work (or rather how many) before they realize they are risking their lives for jobs that pay 16-20K a year for the first 10 years of their "professional" flying carreer?

For those smart "the market drives wages" guys . . . what happens if we run out of "qualified" pilots? We are almost there. Will pilot salaries GO UP? Will Southwest have to charge $200 each way now - to pay pilots? Oh yeah, that's what it cost in the 70's . . . but management figured out how to make it cheaper (then retired with MILLIONS) by cutting and reducing employee pay.

My point is this: We here at NJA will, eventually, achieve what the "market" will bear - which is, in my opinion, higher than what some believe currently possible. In 5-10 years, we will be in the largest defecit of "qualified" pilots since flying began. And the pilots at NJA will be "qualified and current" - hireable at any airline and more importantly, able to demanad, or require a competitive, professional salary from any way you look at it. If the company does not pay this, someone else will. The "market" will soon have to provide for the finacial needs of quality and skilled pilots everywhere. To get, or to keep qualified and competent pilots, NJA will have to meet the needs of the pilot group.