How much are you hoping for?

[El Chupacabra]

deleted

 

[buttercup]

Yeah but how long do you think that card-counting in Atlantic City is going to fly?

Nah.. The stock market is a beatiful thing.. Ask Diesel I'm even making him some $$ too. 75% in one month!! God Bless America

 

[Diesel]

hey as214 you might want to give rattler some financial advice. He's been in this buisness 27years and he's still flying an emb110. Now that's just sad

 

[buttercup]

hey as214 you might want to give rattler some financial advice. He's been in this buisness 27years and he's still flying an emb110. Now that's just sad

Id fly a 172 if it paid 200 k a year

 

[Diesel]

yeah but with what airnow pays it's more like 35k a year.

You watching HEAT on Action. Now that's some money.

 

[Ivan]

Military pilots make an ass load more than the regionals. I left active duty 4 mos ago and now fly for a major. I took about a 40% pay cut. My bro is still on AD and makes about 2G more a month than me. The majors catch up very fast and then pass 'em, but a military Maj or LtC makes between 80K and 110K/ yr with the ACP (aviator continuation pay, aka "pilot bonus"), but that just got cut a little bit.

 

[igneousy2]

And military guys don't need to pay rent. They get a pension after 20 years, and if they come out early they are in the reserves, and when the industry tanks, they just volunteer to go back to active duty. Then they come back when it's all over like they never left.

 

[CatYaaak]

This is true. You must stop trying to tell NJA pilots that they are not worth what they are asking. We will determine what that is.

As someone who has always said you guys have gone to work for too little and that's counterproductive, and hope you'll get higher salaries, I'll have to agree with G4dude that it's the utterly rational marketplace that has the final say on whether what you believe you are worth is viable in your current position. Regardless of what you believe, the fractional scheme is a business model, and all business models in any industry are are in turn only viable depending on other outside, changing factors beyond your control and some that are. The fractional scheme serves a niche in the market, and as a for-profit business the costs of providing the service determines to a large degree how large or small that niche becomes. Keep in mine that NJA isn't the only player in that niche either.

It doesn't really matter what drives the costs up, but labor costs are indeed one of them. Unlike the airlines which need to staff heavily to make an aircraft fly even on a known, set schedule, pilot wages represent a healthy proportion of the labor costs in the fractional scheme due to the nature of what they sell; private on-demand air travel to any destination 24//7/365 while remaining within legality limits of duty times, etc. This means pilot coverage which translates into appx. 4.5 pilots per aircraft. Unlike the airlines, other personnel requirements such as ground handlers, huge numbers of F/As, baggage service, etc. etc. aren't needed to get the job done to the customer's satisfaction.

In comparison to your situation where you can sit at home drawing salary while 3.5 of your peers are getting paid to man the same switch, corporate flight departments where higher salaries exist are considered well-staffed with 3 pilots per aircraft, many have only 2, and a few (which I don't condone) hire one full-time and rely on contract workers. The need for support staff is streamlined, since although the scope of operations is far-flung, it's an internal, linear exercize focusing on a few aircraft, not broad-based like NJA's which must provide service to any of many thousands of customers who are contractually guaranteed they can just pick up the phone on a whim and an aircraft will be there in x amount of hours. Most importantly, a corporate flight department is not a for-profit operation; the flying in itself does not generate direct revenue. Unlike them, if NJA or any fractional doesn't develop new repeat customers, it will cease to exist.

Given these realities, and focusing on the final point regarding customers, it's they who will decide whether the model is viable by their willingness to sign the contract of "ownership". Because fractional serves a niche customers (and most are well-aware of what that niche is), if their needs fall much outside what makes economic sense (let alone other considerations they may find important), they'll charter aircraft instead, or simply operate their own private flight department. If they choose the latter because their useage falls above the high-end of the fractional niche, they can pay much higher salaries to their own pilots and still come out ahead on the ledger sheet because of lessened staffing requirements. That's where a lot of the discrepancy between corporate pilot salaries vs. fractional come in as well as issues of retention and individual companies' policies regarding wage increases for all their employees, not just the pilots.

So go for higher salaries by all means, you deserve it. But for those that don't want to burn the house down, temper the emotion and remember that the market is rational, and higher costs for the customer will also mean shrinking the niche delved out a heartless "markeplace". If the fractional scheme existed in an aviation vacumn, 4.5 150K per/year Ultra pilots per aircraft might work assuming other members of the labor force could be persuaded to maintain that standard. But the real world isn't a vacumn, and very few customers will be willing to support those costs because other alternatives exist, and their economic desirablity would squeeze the limits of the fractional niche down to nothing.

Just food for thought, and pointing out that a smaller niche = fewer jobs. Therefore the question (for those not willing to wield the burn-down torch) is not only "What do I think I'm worth", but also "What do the customers think my company's services are worth?". Customers ultimately decide how many jobs there will be, and unfortunately, your customers don't actually need you to provide what they want, you just happen to do it at the best price. Because they are well-heeled, they are about the least-captive customer base you can target. So like it or not, you're all in it together...pilots, management, everyone else. You play an integral role, but you're also an integral cost in a for-profit business.

Good luck. Staying rational will increase your chances of being lucky.

 

[murfdawg998]

If you people think 100k is a good salary I feel sorry for you.. I made 100k in the past two months. Some of you self-worthless freaks need a dose of reality

DUDE WHAT KIND OF FLYING JOB DO YOU HAVE?! don't give us popcorn w/out the butter...lets hear the rest; pros and cons

 

[murfdawg998]

disregard my previous post, as214...stock market, huh?? nice

 

[acaTerry]

yip,

What makes a jet F/O (programmer) any more or less talented than the PIC?

The CA is not paid more for their talent, they are paid for all the "Captain stuff and the ultimate rrsponsibility.

 

[pilotyip]

When there is problem with a flight, which of these do you think is the first question asked" #1 Who was the F/O? or #2 Who was the Captain? We all know someone who is a decent stick, but you would never trust them in the left with your kids on board the airplane. That is why the Captain gets the bigger bucks

 

[Ivan]

And military guys don't need to pay rent. They get a pension after 20 years, and if they come out early they are in the reserves, and when the industry tanks, they just volunteer to go back to active duty. Then they come back when it's all over like they never left.

Igneousy? Should be Ignorant. Where do you get the idea military pilots don't pay rent? We get BAH (housing allowance) but it rarely covers "the rent" (or the mortgage) anywhere I've been stationed. If you do live on base (and I'd say most don't), you don't get the BAH. You're not automatically in the reserves...you have to join a reserve unit or Guard unit if you want to keep flying military and keep getting paid. Yes, you can be called back to Active Duty, but that's not the same as still flying in the Reserves/Guard. If you DO volunteer to go back on active duty, it's not automatic they'll take you.

And it should be like they never left. What about the dudes that get recalled and have to go fight? Fair that they should take a hit from their regular employer? I hope I'm misreading your tone, but you sound a little bitter toward the military pilots and the route they took. Like I said, they get paid more than regional dudes, but a 3rd year F/O at a major airline makes more cash than a Squadron Commander (LtC), does 5% of the work, and has less than 1% of the responsibility.

 

[Ivan]

I should not have said "Ignorant." Sorry, dude.

 

[Majik]

Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

Type because you like to see your words on a public forum. If you're doing it for any other reason, you may be disappointed.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I seriously tried to stop but my fingers kept going...

 

[guido411]

The CA is not paid more for their talent, they are paid for all the "Captain stuff and the ultimate rrsponsibility.

Very good, Terry, you now understand the pilot heirarchy. But if you read the quote that you noted, you'll notice I never asked why the Captain is paid more than the FO. Yip implied that the SIC's "talent" is what is keeping him from being anything more than a CPA, teacher, or Doctor (and reaping those salaries), just because an SIC traditionally programs the boxes. Well whoopdie-do. I may be an SIC now but I still have about quadrouple the PIC hours than I do SIC hours (and not in 172s either for those of you who will speculate). So does this mean I just took a step backward in the talent pool? Seems so by yip's rationale.

The original question was asked about pay, so if you want the discussion to stay on pay, don't mention talent.

 

[BoilerUP]

Since nobody answered the original question save one or two, I'd like to ask it again:

What *realistically* would NJA pilots want to see their pay be, and what *realistically* do you think will be settled for? If you don't want to put your figures here, PM them to me.

Once again, no flame bait, just trying to get a gouge on the situtation.

 

[sweptwingz]

Boiler, estimates are all over the map, and the union hasn't released the recent pilot salary survey info. I'm going to need to see at LEAST NBAA high end wages for equipment, and full retro, or I'll be voting no. Many NJA pilots are holding out for higher wages. Will we get it? Who knows.

 

[Grizz]

The reason you're probably not getting much participation on this issue is most of us figure why should we tell everybody and their brother what our personal mins are? It doesn't make sense during negotiations.

 

[BoilerUP]

Thank you for the responses, gentlemen.

High-end NBAA ballpark will suffice. Good luck with the new union, and I hope you get most, if not all, of what you want.

 

[MalteseX]

Depends on the service, time in service and rank

A 20 yr Air Force pilot can make $138,000 give or take a few hundred. This rises to $144K this year.

It depends on the Service (AF $25K per year bonus until 20 yrs in Service), depends on time in service and rank (20 yrs) and location ($2100 tax free housing allowance). Broken down: This is for a 20 yr Lt Col that still gets a bonus: (in the future, bonuses are available, but they are only for the guys finishing their first pilot training commitment -- about the 10yr point; but the bonus is still 25k per year)

6,793.20 per month pay (base pay)
plus 184.00 per month food, etc.
plus 2100 housing (tax free)
plus 840 flight pay
plus 2083 bonus
Total approx 12,000 per month.


And after 20 a guy can retire and get half of the first figure above per month in retirement plus medical yada yada.
I just wanted to help clear up any misconceptions people have about military pay. It's good if you are a pilot and you've been in a while. True, the pay does stink for the first few years,

i dont think military pilots earn much higher than the regional airline pilots but ofcourse your not in the military to make a bundle of money right? the only benefit i see is that you DO have a real pension flying in the military vs. a regional. over 30 years i think you would still do better financially at one of the better regionals. $25-115,000yr

 

[Number$Cruncher]

See below.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Ok, I'll bite. Nobody should fly a jet for less than 60K. I do, and I think it's an insult. Also no CA should make less than 120K. Small jet or not, that's my opinion. You guys need to fight for what you think is right.

You are out of your mind.

 

[pilotyip]

Anyone notice something in common here, pay sucks the first few years in any job?

 

[Number$Cruncher]

...Customers ultimately decide how many jobs there will be, and unfortunately, your customers don't actually need you to provide what they want, you just happen to do it at the best price. Because they are well-heeled, they are about the least-captive customer base you can target. So like it or not, you're all in it together...pilots, management, everyone else. You play an integral role, but you're also an integral cost in a for-profit business.

Good luck. Staying rational will increase your chances of being lucky.

Probably the most rational, coherent posting I've seen on this subject yet posted on this board. Bookmark this one and send it anyone screaming for a $60K first year F/O job at NJA to read. Fractionals are a stepping stone to top-shelf corporate for the lucky few, regionals are a stepping stone to the majors...for the lucky few. Have a backup plan.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Fractionals are a stepping stone to top-shelf corporate for the lucky few, regionals are a stepping stone to the majors...for the lucky few. Have a backup plan.

And that is precisley what one of the main issues 82% of this pilot group had with the last TA. Me thinks the stone may be rasied a bit to a level closer to that of the "majors" or "top shelf" corp jobs. I see absolutley no problem having more great paying jobs in the aviation industry... there are already far too many crap pay jobs. Hell, I didn't get into this biz to have a back up plan.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

And that is precisley what one of the main issues 82% of this pilot group had with the last TA. Me thinks the stone may be rasied a bit to a level closer to that of the "majors" or "top shelf" corp jobs. I see absolutley no problem having more great paying jobs in the aviation industry... there are already far too many crap pay jobs. Hell, I didn't get into this biz to have a back up plan.

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you.

 

[FLYLOW22]

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you.

Too many stepping stones out there and not enough pilots with stones. No one asked for your pity... or opinion. But thanks for it anyway. Now back to work...

 

[Fracster]

Anyone notice something in common here, pay sucks the first few years in any job?

Yeah thats true, it just doesnt EVER get better at NJA.

You might want to reconsider. The economics simply don't support what you're dreaming for. Reread CatYaaak's post in this thread. He's right on, and if you don't give it at least some serious consideration, I just can't feel sorry for you

Reconsider what? Reconsider that he's right on, fine, I re-read his post and right on he is not.
Unless you understand the economics of the fractional industry then nothing makes sense. Any CPA worth his salt can make the books look the way NJA's do. NJA cannot show a 100 million dollar profit otherwise what would the perception be. NJA over charging its customers? The owners wouldnt stand for that. The owners perception is that we are highly paid atleast to industry or NBAA standards. Why do they think this.....because NJA and the sales force has repeatedly told them this. So what do you think will happen when they find out the truth.
NJA is a niche company, yes, that part is correct. But so is dunkin donuts or starbucks. For the most part NJA is cheaper than owning a brand new aircraft. Sure they can go buy a used 500 series, Lear or challenger but what will their operating cost be. Maybe less, maybe more depending on usage. There isnt anything wrong with being a niche company. Every company is a niche company. Take a moment and add the numbers up for what is charged, initial deposits, hourly fees, overhead, maintenance, etc. You have no idea what NJA is financialy capable of. Any salaries we request are completly within the scope of whats reasonable.

 

[Schrode]

Sometimes I wonder, who would get into aviation anymore? I see guys learning to fly, or doing 206 charter . . . How long will they work (or rather how many) before they realize they are risking their lives for jobs that pay 16-20K a year for the first 10 years of their "professional" flying carreer?

For those smart "the market drives wages" guys . . . what happens if we run out of "qualified" pilots? We are almost there. Will pilot salaries GO UP? Will Southwest have to charge $200 each way now - to pay pilots? Oh yeah, that's what it cost in the 70's . . . but management figured out how to make it cheaper (then retired with MILLIONS) by cutting and reducing employee pay.

My point is this: We here at NJA will, eventually, achieve what the "market" will bear - which is, in my opinion, higher than what some believe currently possible. In 5-10 years, we will be in the largest defecit of "qualified" pilots since flying began. And the pilots at NJA will be "qualified and current" - hireable at any airline and more importantly, able to demanad, or require a competitive, professional salary from any way you look at it. If the company does not pay this, someone else will. The "market" will soon have to provide for the finacial needs of quality and skilled pilots everywhere. To get, or to keep qualified and competent pilots, NJA will have to meet the needs of the pilot group.