How many in good standing at FLOPS?

[dime line]

I repeat,
I will not vote for the strike but I will not be a scab.
Not affraid of the repercusions but I will not cross the picket line and will support them. I just do not think a strike is the way to go.

.....

 

[CE-560 DRVR]

Tell me...is the majority also migs?

they all could be but 1108 has their not done that in good faith.

Follow the money, the dues paid by flop migs is a pitance. The real money was inherited. Rule changes and ballots were a majority direct result of the NJ pilots and on their way out of IBT1108 they took a nice fat loan.
Dubinsky has been so out of touch with this industry and led the remainder to pick up the pieces if there are any pieces left.

Just for the record I would support a strike vote

I appreciate your statement of support for a strike. That sentiment has been echoed by many others who are not in good standing. Even though they cannot cast a vote, they will not cross the picket line in the event a strike takes place.

I do wonder though, what are you hoping to gain by criticizing the 1108 at this point? What alternative do you propose? How about directing some of that vitriol towards management?

Consider:

Continued stalling of the negotiations process.

Refusal to negotiate scope.

401K match eliminated in Feb 09.

No sick days

No holiday pay

Arbitrary firings without representation

Salaries that average 40% less than the industry

 

[jonjuan]

Consider:

Continued stalling of the negotiations process.

Refusal to negotiate scope.

401K match eliminated in Feb 09.

No sick days

No holiday pay

Arbitrary firings without representation

Salaries that average 40% less than the industry

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/09/the_union_representing_about_5.html

The union representing about 500 pilots at Flight Options LLC has scheduled a strike authorization vote as the clock ticks down on negotiations with the fractional ownership jet company.
The pilots have been bargaining for a first contract since being organized by the Teamsters in June 2006.
Representatives of Flights Options and of Teamsters Local1108 met in Washington at the offices of the National Mediation Board last week but didn't agree on remaining pay, benefit and work rule provisions. The federal mediator on the case set a final bargaining session for Oct. 26-31.
A strike authorization vote does not mean a union will necessarily strike. But it lays the groundwork for union leaders to call a strike if no agreement is reached.
Strike authorization ballots were sent to Flight Options pilots on Monday. Ballots will be counted at Local 1108's offices on Oct. 19.
Flight Options Chief Executive Mike Silvestro said the company presented a comprehensive proposal to the union last week and has not received a counter proposal.
"We have nine negotiating sessions already planned in the next few weeks -- leading up to a meeting with the federal mediator at the end of October," he said.

So what did the "comprehensive proposal" entail?

 

[fracjack]

I appreciate your statement of support for a strike. That sentiment has been echoed by many others who are not in good standing. Even though they cannot cast a vote, they will not cross the picket line in the event a strike takes place.

I do wonder though, what are you hoping to gain by criticizing the 1108 at this point? What alternative do you propose? How about directing some of that vitriol towards management?

Consider:

Continued stalling of the negotiations process.

Refusal to negotiate scope.

401K match eliminated in Feb 09.

No sick days

No holiday pay

Arbitrary firings without representation

Salaries that average 40% less than the industry

Managements actions have been repeated numerous times and well known.
Unions actions have not.
Should a CBA ever come there will be a bitterness within the pilot group exponentially higher than the old FLOPS-RTA merger and the company will be able to just watch and laugh. Only the 1108 can do anything to unite the groups and I would be surprised. This industry is like no other and no one had the foresight to predict or plan for an economic downturn while focusing on NJ CBA and following Captain United who was not smart enough to see how stupid Sh*tfinger was in believing the pilots would not disrupt the owners and cardholders when in fact many did while the union officially did not condone their actions but unofficially probably did and I believe that came way of Capt United.
Do I have to explain the result? If you were Mr/Mrs Big and Rich would you even look twice at FLOPS?
This company now has a deserved reputation and IF it survives they will need to be twice as good to be thought of being half as good as the competitors. That is not a pessimistic view it's just a realistic one.
It will be embarassing to see the number of votes cast as compared to the number of pilots on the seniority list, I'll wager much less than the initial vote for the union. That vote incidently,from a good source was stategically timed just prior to the company's announcement of pay increases.
There will be no recalls or growth or even status quo of flying unless forced action is taken and if that means a strike threat than so be it, without the real threat of a strike this company will continue to wither slowly away to nothing and every furloughed pilot that stays in aviation flying will enjoy being the senior crewmember to his/her former senior peers. I'm afraid there will be some real bruised egos.
Both side have run out of options at this point(no pun intended)
I wish all the FLOPS pilots luck, they will need it.

 

[Captain Dork]

On that go on strike subject...

I personally hope we have an actual strike with picket lines, work stoppage, standing across from HQ with a sign, standing around a barrel for heat drinking coffee, ratting out the scabs etc..

The company will find out how much negative cash-flow they can stand, because: (1) cost of charter (2) cost of contract redemptions (3) cost of retraining replacement workers (4) cost of accelerated checkride schedule-most of the checkairmen are union guys (5) interruption of refueling services at teamster represented FBO's (6) cost of marketing to overcome customer reluctance to deal with a now small bam operation (7) higher insurance cost (8) added pressure from the FAA-this occurs in 121 anyway (9) loss of customer base that is union issue sensitive.

My hardcore anti-union co-workers that come to work even one day will get to wear the scab label-forever. This is quite the monument one gets to carry for perpituity. I have known people that couldn't get a major airline job because their dad's were scabs twenty years ago.

We have many, (around 100) people who are going to cross that picket line. I believe some of the original hiring process was functionally designed to hire that type of person. It may be just that core group of believers that will give the company the emotional momentum to attempt a "lockout" and a quick restart. However, I can't think of anytime that has succeeded in a medium sized company, once a union has been voted (by 68 percent) on to the property.

Kenn's self-authored book "Trust" is often offered as the light that will guide to a new direction. Does any one remember the name of the character that tricks Pinocchio into joining the circus? His name was
Honest John. Sort of how you might have a Truthful Timm, the Car Dealer you can Trust. The crazy schlock that the company trys to feed us becomes even more entertaining as the quest for contract goes on-The Four Non-Negotiables, Love the Customer (can you feel the love coming back, boy I sure can), or Fanantical Attention to Detail (suggest that next time you ground an airplane in an out of the way airport). My personal bio will be Captain Dork-The Huge Stallion.

Anyway FO management, please roll the dice.

 

[shanes123]

$100 says you are WRONG!!!

$100?? Please..how about 10k..oh wait sorry..you make 40% less than me have no 401k match and have to pay for your own benefits all while working a xtra 2 days more a month than me..

Where you want to send the check?

 

[CE-560 DRVR]

Managements actions have been repeated numerous times and well known.
Unions actions have not.
Should a CBA ever come there will be a bitterness within the pilot group exponentially higher than the old FLOPS-RTA merger and the company will be able to just watch and laugh. Only the 1108 can do anything to unite the groups and I would be surprised. This industry is like no other and no one had the foresight to predict or plan for an economic downturn while focusing on NJ CBA and following Captain United who was not smart enough to see how stupid Sh*tfinger was in believing the pilots would not disrupt the owners and cardholders when in fact many did while the union officially did not condone their actions but unofficially probably did and I believe that came way of Capt United.
Do I have to explain the result? If you were Mr/Mrs Big and Rich would you even look twice at FLOPS?
This company now has a deserved reputation and IF it survives they will need to be twice as good to be thought of being half as good as the competitors. That is not a pessimistic view it's just a realistic one.
It will be embarassing to see the number of votes cast as compared to the number of pilots on the seniority list, I'll wager much less than the initial vote for the union. That vote incidently,from a good source was stategically timed just prior to the company's announcement of pay increases.
There will be no recalls or growth or even status quo of flying unless forced action is taken and if that means a strike threat than so be it, without the real threat of a strike this company will continue to wither slowly away to nothing and every furloughed pilot that stays in aviation flying will enjoy being the senior crewmember to his/her former senior peers. I'm afraid there will be some real bruised egos.
Both side have run out of options at this point(no pun intended)
I wish all the FLOPS pilots luck, they will need it.

Fracjack,
First off...... are you new here? Do you even work at Flops?

Your statement about the "strategic timing" of the union vote is laughable. The union drive had been underway for over a year due to the draconian changes implemented by Scheringa in 2005. Have you forgotten his decision to abandon Tier 3 domicile crews? Elimination of the travel allowance, except for those living in CGF. Repeated 14hr duty days followed by min (10 hrs) rest in a "Quality Inn" 29 minutes away from the airport. Duty on at 0500 am at the fbo with no trips scheduled, huge increases in health ins premiums, etc, etc.

AFTER they discovered a union vote was imminent, management began the "we love our pilots" campaign. You remember that right? The VP of OPS, Program Managers, the Chief Pilot, and the director of HR attempting to buy as dinner and "talk" while we were off duty at TEB, PBI, LAS etc. Way too little, too late.

Without a CBA, ANY raise, ANY benefit they may have offered could and would be taken away with a simple e-mail. "Policy of the week" reigns supreme. Witness the elimination of the 401K match this year.

The majority of the pilots here at FLOPS decided that when you're dealing with a manager intent on destroying careers, working without a contract is foolhardy.

Was there a write-up campaign? Of course not. The union leadership, esp Dubinsky, made a point of stressing that "no job action was to be taken". The aircraft hadn't been maintained and the crews quit carrying write-ups, its as simple as that. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.......

As far as "Captain United".....considering our foes (the various management teams as well as F&H), I want an experienced, aggressive advisor in my corner. What do you propose? "Trust"?

You have posted your complaints about the union. Again, I will ask you. What solutions do you offer?

Meanwhile, FLOPS management continues their delay tactics.

Tick tock, tick tock.........

 

[bchjetdrvr]

.....

 

[fracjack]

Fracjack,
First off...... are you new here? Do you even work at Flops?

Your statement about the "strategic timing" of the union vote is laughable. The union drive had been underway for over a year due to the draconian changes implemented by Scheringa in 2005. Have you forgotten his decision to abandon Tier 3 domicile crews? Elimination of the travel allowance, except for those living in CGF. Repeated 14hr duty days followed by min (10 hrs) rest in a "Quality Inn" 29 minutes away from the airport. Duty on at 0500 am at the fbo with no trips scheduled, huge increases in health ins premiums, etc, etc.

AFTER they discovered a union vote was imminent, management began the "we love our pilots" campaign. You remember that right? The VP of OPS, Program Managers, the Chief Pilot, and the director of HR attempting to buy as dinner and "talk" while we were off duty at TEB, PBI, LAS etc. Way too little, too late.

Without a CBA, ANY raise, ANY benefit they may have offered could and would be taken away with a simple e-mail. "Policy of the week" reigns supreme. Witness the elimination of the 401K match this year.

The majority of the pilots here at FLOPS decided that when you're dealing with a manager intent on destroying careers, working without a contract is foolhardy.

Was there a write-up campaign? Of course not. The union leadership, esp Dubinsky, made a point of stressing that "no job action was to be taken". The aircraft hadn't been maintained and the crews quit carrying write-ups, its as simple as that. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.......

As far as "Captain United".....considering our foes (the various management teams as well as F&H), I want an experienced, aggressive advisor in my corner. What do you propose? "Trust"?

You have posted your complaints about the union. Again, I will ask you. What solutions do you offer?

Meanwhile, FLOPS management continues their delay tactics.

Tick tock, tick tock.........

I see by your response this would be your first rodeo. Not to worry ,there are plenty of naive people like yourself. As for solution,there is none at this point in time other than support the 1108 until a CBA is reached and then boot 'em in the a$$ out the door unless of course they can unite the pilots. Another lesson of life here that you have yet to learn.

 

[cougar12]

Fracjack and any other freeloaders I got my ballot and I voted YES! I support OUR union! I hope we get 98%. I guess all of you don't pay your taxes or any of your other bills because you don't agree with them. As far as I am concerned you are a bunch of whinning babies that love the democratic process as long as everything goes your way. If not, it's not fair, they cheated, they changed the rules, they changed the ballots, I'm not paying my dues. Pathetic!
It amazes me how many people remain so uninformed! If you have questions call a member of the E-board.

 

[SecondSegment]

Pass the popcorn and don't drink the Kool Aid.

If we ever get a chance to vote on a contract, How many MIGS are actually employed at Flight Options?

Looks like most of the MIGS are LONG GONNERS with no realistic hope of coming back. Or, if we are talking about pilots still gainfully employed by Flight Options, we have a case of the few controlling the many. Further, regarding the leadership, Who did we actually vote for???.

Why can't we get a contract?

Because a large majority of the FO Pilots are not MIGS and they do not believe in the U as it stands. Union Leadership knows that the majority would gladly replace the teamsters with an in house as soon a contract is signed. Rather than face that reality, leadership is happy to continue the negotiating game indefinitely. Replacing the union is a favored option with employed pilots over ponying up large chunks of cash to become a MIGS in an organization that they don't believe in. Management loves this because they are getting it cheap and have more time to set up the replacement flight departments in other owned, affiliate, charter companies.

If you agree, or think that some of that could be true, What about a strike??

I personally know only a handful that are still paying. Most of the FO Pilots I talk to were paying at one time, but no longer. If you are one of the majority not paying, but still employed, Are you willing to trash your whole career by scabbing? Do you get the feeling that you are being held hostage by the few and getting bent over by management? You're not alone!

What we have here is a no win situation for the majority, as it stands now. Management obviously does not want a deal. If we strike you are screwed either way. You will either be a scab at a shell, affiliate, charter company that won't last very long, or you will be an unemployed striker.

The solution, It's Obvious. The time, NOW!

 

[skyhookd]

It is what it is. And if you cant see what it is, your blinded by ignorance. Cause what it is, is collusion, misrepresentation, and pure lies. No trust, no faith, no loyalty here, to either party. I also wonder if KR ever read the book he wrote. And as far as an in house union goes....... they've already hand picked that team as well. It would just be more of the same. Good luck with those suck a$$es.

 

[GerryG]

Pass the popcorn and don't drink the Kool Aid.

If we ever get a chance to vote on a contract, How many MIGS are actually employed at Flight Options?

Looks like most of the MIGS are LONG GONNERS with no realistic hope of coming back. Or, if we are talking about pilots still gainfully employed by Flight Options, we have a case of the few controlling the many. Further, regarding the leadership, Who did we actually vote for???.

Why can't we get a contract?

Because a large majority of the FO Pilots are not MIGS and they do not believe in the U as it stands. Union Leadership knows that the majority would gladly replace the teamsters with an in house as soon a contract is signed. Rather than face that reality, leadership is happy to continue the negotiating game indefinitely. Replacing the union is a favored option with employed pilots over ponying up large chunks of cash to become a MIGS in an organization that they don't believe in. Management loves this because they are getting it cheap and have more time to set up the replacement flight departments in other owned, affiliate, charter companies.

If you agree, or think that some of that could be true, What about a strike??

I personally know only a handful that are still paying. Most of the FO Pilots I talk to were paying at one time, but no longer. If you are one of the majority not paying, but still employed, Are you willing to trash your whole career by scabbing? Do you get the feeling that you are being held hostage by the few and getting bent over by management? You're not alone!

What we have here is a no win situation for the majority, as it stands now. Management obviously does not want a deal. If we strike you are screwed either way. You will either be a scab at a shell, affiliate, charter company that won't last very long, or you will be an unemployed striker.

The solution, It's Obvious. The time, NOW!

I don’t mean to burst your bubble there Judas but the 1108 now has more members in good standing than at any time in its existence. So its actually the few, yourself included, who by not supporting our union, diminish our negotiators leverage at the bargaining table. Its also funny you complain about who is running the union. As I recall, our union leaders ran unopposed. Why didn’t you step up at the time and run for an office? Oh that’s right, you had to be in good standing to run for office. Instead now you support an in-house? So you’ve been freeloading off the majority of us and now you think you would have the credibility to lead and insurrection? Get real, everyone knows an in-house, combined with the revenue generated from 320 active pilots is a recipe for disaster. In in-house at Flops would be nothing more than a puppet of management. They would have no funds and would end up selling all of us down the river. And led by a group of free-riders? That’s beyond hilarious.

As far as your not paying dues to “an organization they don’t believe in’. I have it from a reliable source that just as at NJ and almost every other unionized carrier, our TA’d union security clause establishes an agency shop. So you will pay dues or a shop fee equivalent to union dues post contract. Failure to do so will result in termination.

I think our union is handling what amounts to a monumentally difficult task, given this economy, with poise and intelligence. Our leadership has my support and my monthly dues check. As for you, you represent a small cowardly element within our group. You never had the stones to support your fellow pilots in a fight, but now you’re afraid the union is going to force you to expose yourself as the scab that you are by going on strike and you hope to save yourself by trashing your fellow pilots efforts.

And you know what the ultimate irony is? By not supporting your union all this time and thereby weakening their position in negotiations, you and your fellow management sycophants have made this process take longer.

We will achieve our goal of a contract with or without you.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Cue Knucklehead 19 in 3, 2, 1....

 

[TurboHonda]

Pass the popcorn and don't drink the Kool Aid.

If we ever get a chance to vote on a contract, How many MIGS are actually employed at Flight Options?

Looks like most of the MIGS are LONG GONNERS with no realistic hope of coming back. Or, if we are talking about pilots still gainfully employed by Flight Options, we have a case of the few controlling the many. Further, regarding the leadership, Who did we actually vote for???.

Why can't we get a contract?

Because a large majority of the FO Pilots are not MIGS and they do not believe in the U as it stands. Union Leadership knows that the majority would gladly replace the teamsters with an in house as soon a contract is signed. Rather than face that reality, leadership is happy to continue the negotiating game indefinitely. Replacing the union is a favored option with employed pilots over ponying up large chunks of cash to become a MIGS in an organization that they don't believe in. Management loves this because they are getting it cheap and have more time to set up the replacement flight departments in other owned, affiliate, charter companies.

If you agree, or think that some of that could be true, What about a strike??

I personally know only a handful that are still paying. Most of the FO Pilots I talk to were paying at one time, but no longer. If you are one of the majority not paying, but still employed, Are you willing to trash your whole career by scabbing? Do you get the feeling that you are being held hostage by the few and getting bent over by management? You're not alone!

What we have here is a no win situation for the majority, as it stands now. Management obviously does not want a deal. If we strike you are screwed either way. You will either be a scab at a shell, affiliate, charter company that won't last very long, or you will be an unemployed striker.

The solution, It's Obvious. The time, NOW!

You don’t give your fellow man much credit for having any principles. What kind of charter operator would agree to pimping out their pilots to fly struck work for the toothy one? What kind of pilot would continue to work there?

You refer to scabs at a charter company. I got criticized for suggesting that definition, so I hope you fare better with it.

Anyway, good luck with your spinal problem. As for me, my choices have never been limited to just two.