How Low Can We Go?

[WSurf]

http://www.jeremypost.com/ding-fries-are-done/

 

[Captain Morgan]

A rich wife is one thing but what about self respecting yourself and not working for Taco Bell wages because your are so desperate to call yourself a pilot.
I have a wife that makes great money and benefits but I would never consider flying for a regional in the current state they are in and be their slave to work horrible hours and have no QOL to speak of.
My only choice to fly would be a corporate gig that paid well if I found one.
I own my own business outside of aviation and make well more than any Captain and get to take time off when I want, travel and enjoy life. I would love to fly for a living but when you weigh the options I personally found its not worth it.
I guess if you really love to fly like I did at one time you stick it out but at what expense?
Hopefully one day things will be better and pilots will get the pay and respect they deserve.

I flew corporate, and I will mostly never do it again. Nothing is perfect and you have seem to found a niche that you like and it's working for you. I have wanted to be an airline pilot since I was 3. This is the career that I have chosen and when I chose a wife I made sure it was understood what she was getting into. Everyone's different and everyone has a different idea of career and lifestyle.

 

[Bako Cap]

I say work hard, try and get a mainline job. The majors will be recovering in 2-3 years and there will be better chances to make 100k-150k and have a much better life then to sell yourself short and settle for a regional job.

I remember saying that 5-6 years ago.......

 

[CopilotDoug]

Start enjoying the Finer things in life! Get what you REALLY want!

There's a lot of gold diggers out there. The media has made sure of that. They have programmed people to believe that they deserve and need things they don't. They want the 300k house, they want the Suburban, they want the expensive lavish vacations and they expect it too. It's a far cry from what really matters in life. Family, community, and a honest living. These things were found only 20 years ago. I remember saving all year to go on vacation to see my family across our continent. Now, people drop money like it's hot. All thanks to a credit card and cheap travel companies.

www.sugardaddyforme.com/

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Limbo Rock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcw_s8-Ta9I&feature=related

La La La La La La La............

 

[WSurf]

I remember saying that 5-6 years ago.......

True, but I believe we are gonna see less and less people opt for aviation as a profession.

 

[11thHour]

True, but I believe we are gonna see less and less people opt for aviation as a profession.

Especially if pilots themselves willingly vote for their own pay to be cut. WTH wants into an occupation where your coworkers are your own worse enemy?

 

[turbinesurgeon]

It must be nice to have a wealthy wife to finance ones hobbies that others try to make a career out of.

 

[Captain Morgan]

www.sugardaddyforme.com/

Shoot! This is cool!

 

[Goose Egg]

All the above I totally agree with. However try living on a Regional pay of 50k with a wife and kids. You have a mortgage, car, insurance, food, cloths normal bills (Water, Power, telephone). You will see that 50k won't take you far at all. Can it be done? Of course! Can you save anymore money for emergencies? No! Can you save for vactions and your kids future education. Living on the edge pay check to check and having one burp with cause a tailspin.
50k aint gonna do it, unless your wife is working.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you that 50k isn't a lot of money--in truth I consider that "barely getting by." However, I think one has to consider what they really need to be "happy" in life, and that applies at any income level. Personally, my favorite vacations are road trips for camping and climbing and staying with family. I would love to help my kids out with college, but if I can't it won't kill them to pay for it themselves--my folks helped out a little with my school, but I paid for the vast majority of it. And as far as saving for emergencies, I'm one who believes that can be done at almost any income level with proper spending habits and a good solid budget. It may have to build slowly, but it can be done. And perhaps I live in a 100k house instead of a 500k house. I've always been one who believes that all luxury is marginal, meaning that there really isn't much difference to me between my 10 year old Honda Civic that I paid $6000 for and some brand new luxury car that cost $30k--they both get from point A and B just as quickly. They are both safe. They are both reliable. The heaters work in both of them. They both carry the same amount of people. So why spend the extra $24k? I don't see it. I mean we can take the same analogy over to road bikes; carbon frames are really nice, but they aren't necessarily any faster/stiffer/lighter/more durable than aluminum frames (as long as the frame geometry is fast), and a lot of the time carbon is heavier than aluminum! So why pay for what you don't need?

I say work hard, try and get a mainline job. The majors will be recovering in 2-3 years and there will be better chances to make 100k-150k and have a much better life then to sell yourself short and settle for a regional job.

I say if my wife wants to work, more power to her. But if she does not want to work, I'll do whatever I need to do to make that work out as well. It's all a process.

I also say that we've all gone and chosen ourselves a career where we need to be really careful about increasing standard of living with increasing levels of pay. Things fluctuate, companies furlough, lay-off, close-up. This happens, and there's nothing any of us can do about it. The rememedy, I think is to live well within our means. If luxury is marginal, then it can be done without, even if our budget will allow it. I'm sure that there are those who would disagree, but this is my plan.

But for now I enjoy my QOL and am fortunate enough to live in base and spend a ton of time at home being mr.mom.

Man that sounds cool! I'm happy for ya!

-Goose

 

[Captain Morgan]

I agree with what Goose Egg says. Right on man! On another level, I love cars, in fact I've had some pretty nice ones (Subaru WRX, Mazda RX-7, etc.). For the most part it's fun to drive something that is quality made and you love, but cars are money pits. I bet I've wasted about 20000 dollars on buying, trading, and selling cars. They are the worst. If I was to say that there is one thing that is the most detrimental to a budget, it would be a car.

 

[pipejockey]

I'd say about 50k, for a 3rd year CRJ FO. I don't say this as a matter of pride, more of just a statement of fact that if I'm married and have kids, I'll need at least 50k to get by. Luckily, I'm a Y2 EMB-120 FO, with no wife and kids, and I'm doing just fine on what I've got. But looking down the road...

And fwiw, I abandoned the idea of flying for a major a long time ago. I guess the possibility of it happening still exists, but I'm certainly not banking on it.

-Goose

Only Goose Egg and Captain Morgan responded with figures out of 3 pages. It seems to me that you all are embarrassed with just how little you are willing to do this for.

Goose Egg, you do realize you won't be at 50G for a year 3 crj fo right? Especially minus per diem which I don't even count as income since it is intended to help us with the 20 buck room service cheeseburger that those with normal jobs and who are home every night don't need to pay for. But you are a wise man accepting the fact that a mainline career is all but out of the question. The regional pilots need to understand that it is not a stepping stone anymore and adult wages must be paid to the FO's, not this chicken s**t they pass out currently.

Think about this. Even at a regional with 2-3 thousand pilots, how many are actually on 1st year pay at any given time? Eagle, Mesa, SkyWest, ASA, maybe up to 500 in a good year, 100 in a slow year, but lets say 300 on average. Paying a newhire an extra 10 bucks an hour to bring new hire pay to 30-35 or so would cost 3 million. These regionals I mentioned have revenues of well over a billion dollars. And they still insist on paying these 20-24 buck an hour pay rates?? Despicable.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Yup, it's a lot different than it used to be. As soon as management got the bright idea of bringing in jets to the regional/commuters, the wage should've been automatically matched to what mainline would've flown them for. Then it might not look so enticing to have regional planes flying mainline routes. One thing if any, that was good about the gas crunch was that most mainline companies were reexamining whether or not turboprops were better. Rather than an ERJ, I would've loved to have seen a 50seat Brasilia turboprop. The only thing that would've made that sweeter would've been for a turboprop like that to be on a mainline certificate.

 

[Goose Egg]

Goose Egg, you do realize you won't be at 50G for a year 3 crj fo right? Especially minus per diem which I don't even count as income...

Hey, per diem money is just as green. But if the truth will be told, the only thing that I really know is that I won't be at $50k during Y2.

-Goose

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

It's about QOL

...and the record goes 'round and 'round. Either give it a rest and do your best or find a new job, it's that simple. Bitching and moaning on a public forum isn't going to solve anything. In fact it might be detrimental in that, we keep revisiting the crime. We all know this profession is in the dumps, we don't need a reminder every other post. Sorry mate, nothing against you, just the way I see it.

Pipejockey has made a good point. I see you are flying a -145 as an SIC. So how low would you go to keep the job? At what breaking point would you go and find a new job too? If pilots keep doing more with less then soon we'll be doing everything with nothing.
Most pilots do this "job" due to a simple fact it's fun and a nice way to earn a living. But at what cost? How is your QOL now? Higher or lower since you signed on to fly the -145? Are you having fun? Do you dread a coming work day or actually look forward to going to work? Are all the negatives at work worth your time for the $$ you earn?
Those are the questions you need to find answers to.

I will tell you that my QOL is great and doesn't appear to going downhill. I actually enjoy working and going to work. Past life (2002) is was not that way and fellow pilots bicthed about the place I was working (a regional). I told them leave if it's bad and they would say "no flying jobs to be had". I told them find a non-flying job. I listened to my own words and left for a gov't. job for 16 months. Sometimes we have to make adjustments.

Hey, if you really like the state of the industry then don't leave and enjoy. If you don't, but want to say then spread the word and fight for your QOL.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Right now, my QOL is great! I'm on reserve at home. I haven't worked aside from a one day trip in three weeks. In Nov. I have 15 days off because of some vacation I took. I actually wish I would get called in a little more to tell you the truth. I really look forward to going to work. There's nothing more pleasing to me than at 10,000 ft. lowering the nose and letting the plane cruise climb all the while looking out and surveying the view. Of course not everyone is me, and to tell you the truth I'm probably one of the rare one's whose known that I wanted to do this since I was young, like around 3 years old. I can't imagine doing anything else, nor would I enjoy anything else as much. Don't get me wrong, I won't do this job for free and I am in support of raising the wages. I think I said before, I've flown corporate and many different flying jobs. Aside from single pilot freight and a small traffic watch job that I have had, this is the best. I understand there are people out there who got into flying because they thought it would pay off in money. There are those who just thought flying was a fun thing to do so they'd give the airlines a go. There are even those who I'm sure thought they'd get more "tail" wearing the uniform. While I feel bad for these people during this time of the industry, I also think that they should quit whining or just get it done and over with and move onto something else because this industry has always been in flux. This is a hard industry and if you don't like it even a little, you're going to be miserable. I always liked PilotYIP's tagline: "Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the respect, prestige, recognition or money you may be disappointed."

 

[Goose Egg]

Do you dread a coming work day or actually look forward to going to work? Are all the negatives at work worth your time for the $$ you earn?
Those are the questions you need to find answers to.

I know you didn't ask me specifically, but I have to chime in here. I personally LOVE my job, and I'm saying this as a junior-ish FO lineholder on a turboprop. Some days are rough, but most of the time, there isn't anything that I'd rather be doing for a living than flying. Actually liking what I do is a HUGE part of what I would consider "QOL."

Hey, if you really like the state of the industry then don't leave and enjoy. If you don't, but want to say then spread the word and fight for your QOL.

Just for the record, I think someone would have to actually be living under a rock to "like" the state of the industry, and I think that applies when times are good as well. But that's par for the course, and in all honesty, I hope to leave the "industry" (the airline industry, that is) someday. But I'll never leave flying, at least not voluntarily.

-Goose

 

[Goose Egg]

Of course not everyone is me, and to tell you the truth I'm probably one of the rare one's whose known that I wanted to do this since I was young, like around 3 years old. I can't imagine doing anything else, nor would I enjoy anything else as much...

Count me in as a "rare" one too.

I understand there are people out there who got into flying because they thought it would pay off in money. There are those who just thought flying was a fun thing to do so they'd give the airlines a go. There are even those who I'm sure thought they'd get more "tail" wearing the uniform.

These guys stick out like sore thumbs, at least to me they do. And might I add, I get ignored by the opposite sex just as much in uniform as I do when out. But I don't really care that much because that's not why I got into this.

 

[acpilot]

To answer the question...

PIC's:
No less than $50K on government contracts or $8-10K/mo for seasonal work. Over $100/day per diem.

Equipment consists of light to cabin class twins and smaller turbine platforms.

RJ capt's should probably start around here and move up.

SIC's:
No less than $25K in smaller turbine equipment when an SIC is regularly required. Pay increases with expierence and a PIC slot should be offered when minimum times are met and a PIC is needed.

It is beyond me how RJ F/O's can be OK with the first and second year wages. I believe a MINIMUM of $25K is barely acceptable for first year.

These are just my thoughts. This is what *should* be paid in my opinion.

I've never been a regional pilot so my figures may be skewed. I imagine flying 121 has its perks...unfortunately the money doesn't seem to be one of them, yet.

If you absolutely NEED to fly an RJ, be willing to accept lower pay. From what I understand from all of my RJ buddies, it's pretty simple work and there are a lot of pilots "qualified" to do the job...not that contract work is difficult, just different.

Edit:
I'd like to see 121 pay return to acceptable levels. Asking for a pushback and deice beats pushing an airplane into a hanger and waiting for the ice to melt. A color GPS would be really great to have as well!

The question I had to ask myself when I left instruction was, "am I worth more than $20K a year?" I thought I was so I found a job the payed a reasonable sum. I think it was partially luck, but I also held out for a job for as long as I could. It was also just before the "crash" when airlines were hiring like crazy (mid-2006, remember the good...er, better...days?).

 

[Captain Morgan]

AC: I can respect that! Looks pretty good to me.