How Low Can We Go?

[Captain Morgan]

I agree with what Goose Egg says. Right on man! On another level, I love cars, in fact I've had some pretty nice ones (Subaru WRX, Mazda RX-7, etc.). For the most part it's fun to drive something that is quality made and you love, but cars are money pits. I bet I've wasted about 20000 dollars on buying, trading, and selling cars. They are the worst. If I was to say that there is one thing that is the most detrimental to a budget, it would be a car.

 

[pipejockey]

I'd say about 50k, for a 3rd year CRJ FO. I don't say this as a matter of pride, more of just a statement of fact that if I'm married and have kids, I'll need at least 50k to get by. Luckily, I'm a Y2 EMB-120 FO, with no wife and kids, and I'm doing just fine on what I've got. But looking down the road...

And fwiw, I abandoned the idea of flying for a major a long time ago. I guess the possibility of it happening still exists, but I'm certainly not banking on it.

-Goose

Only Goose Egg and Captain Morgan responded with figures out of 3 pages. It seems to me that you all are embarrassed with just how little you are willing to do this for.

Goose Egg, you do realize you won't be at 50G for a year 3 crj fo right? Especially minus per diem which I don't even count as income since it is intended to help us with the 20 buck room service cheeseburger that those with normal jobs and who are home every night don't need to pay for. But you are a wise man accepting the fact that a mainline career is all but out of the question. The regional pilots need to understand that it is not a stepping stone anymore and adult wages must be paid to the FO's, not this chicken s**t they pass out currently.

Think about this. Even at a regional with 2-3 thousand pilots, how many are actually on 1st year pay at any given time? Eagle, Mesa, SkyWest, ASA, maybe up to 500 in a good year, 100 in a slow year, but lets say 300 on average. Paying a newhire an extra 10 bucks an hour to bring new hire pay to 30-35 or so would cost 3 million. These regionals I mentioned have revenues of well over a billion dollars. And they still insist on paying these 20-24 buck an hour pay rates?? Despicable.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Yup, it's a lot different than it used to be. As soon as management got the bright idea of bringing in jets to the regional/commuters, the wage should've been automatically matched to what mainline would've flown them for. Then it might not look so enticing to have regional planes flying mainline routes. One thing if any, that was good about the gas crunch was that most mainline companies were reexamining whether or not turboprops were better. Rather than an ERJ, I would've loved to have seen a 50seat Brasilia turboprop. The only thing that would've made that sweeter would've been for a turboprop like that to be on a mainline certificate.

 

[Goose Egg]

Goose Egg, you do realize you won't be at 50G for a year 3 crj fo right? Especially minus per diem which I don't even count as income...

Hey, per diem money is just as green. But if the truth will be told, the only thing that I really know is that I won't be at $50k during Y2.

-Goose

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

It's about QOL

...and the record goes 'round and 'round. Either give it a rest and do your best or find a new job, it's that simple. Bitching and moaning on a public forum isn't going to solve anything. In fact it might be detrimental in that, we keep revisiting the crime. We all know this profession is in the dumps, we don't need a reminder every other post. Sorry mate, nothing against you, just the way I see it.

Pipejockey has made a good point. I see you are flying a -145 as an SIC. So how low would you go to keep the job? At what breaking point would you go and find a new job too? If pilots keep doing more with less then soon we'll be doing everything with nothing.
Most pilots do this "job" due to a simple fact it's fun and a nice way to earn a living. But at what cost? How is your QOL now? Higher or lower since you signed on to fly the -145? Are you having fun? Do you dread a coming work day or actually look forward to going to work? Are all the negatives at work worth your time for the $$ you earn?
Those are the questions you need to find answers to.

I will tell you that my QOL is great and doesn't appear to going downhill. I actually enjoy working and going to work. Past life (2002) is was not that way and fellow pilots bicthed about the place I was working (a regional). I told them leave if it's bad and they would say "no flying jobs to be had". I told them find a non-flying job. I listened to my own words and left for a gov't. job for 16 months. Sometimes we have to make adjustments.

Hey, if you really like the state of the industry then don't leave and enjoy. If you don't, but want to say then spread the word and fight for your QOL.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Right now, my QOL is great! I'm on reserve at home. I haven't worked aside from a one day trip in three weeks. In Nov. I have 15 days off because of some vacation I took. I actually wish I would get called in a little more to tell you the truth. I really look forward to going to work. There's nothing more pleasing to me than at 10,000 ft. lowering the nose and letting the plane cruise climb all the while looking out and surveying the view. Of course not everyone is me, and to tell you the truth I'm probably one of the rare one's whose known that I wanted to do this since I was young, like around 3 years old. I can't imagine doing anything else, nor would I enjoy anything else as much. Don't get me wrong, I won't do this job for free and I am in support of raising the wages. I think I said before, I've flown corporate and many different flying jobs. Aside from single pilot freight and a small traffic watch job that I have had, this is the best. I understand there are people out there who got into flying because they thought it would pay off in money. There are those who just thought flying was a fun thing to do so they'd give the airlines a go. There are even those who I'm sure thought they'd get more "tail" wearing the uniform. While I feel bad for these people during this time of the industry, I also think that they should quit whining or just get it done and over with and move onto something else because this industry has always been in flux. This is a hard industry and if you don't like it even a little, you're going to be miserable. I always liked PilotYIP's tagline: "Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the respect, prestige, recognition or money you may be disappointed."

 

[Goose Egg]

Do you dread a coming work day or actually look forward to going to work? Are all the negatives at work worth your time for the $$ you earn?
Those are the questions you need to find answers to.

I know you didn't ask me specifically, but I have to chime in here. I personally LOVE my job, and I'm saying this as a junior-ish FO lineholder on a turboprop. Some days are rough, but most of the time, there isn't anything that I'd rather be doing for a living than flying. Actually liking what I do is a HUGE part of what I would consider "QOL."

Hey, if you really like the state of the industry then don't leave and enjoy. If you don't, but want to say then spread the word and fight for your QOL.

Just for the record, I think someone would have to actually be living under a rock to "like" the state of the industry, and I think that applies when times are good as well. But that's par for the course, and in all honesty, I hope to leave the "industry" (the airline industry, that is) someday. But I'll never leave flying, at least not voluntarily.

-Goose

 

[Goose Egg]

Of course not everyone is me, and to tell you the truth I'm probably one of the rare one's whose known that I wanted to do this since I was young, like around 3 years old. I can't imagine doing anything else, nor would I enjoy anything else as much...

Count me in as a "rare" one too.

I understand there are people out there who got into flying because they thought it would pay off in money. There are those who just thought flying was a fun thing to do so they'd give the airlines a go. There are even those who I'm sure thought they'd get more "tail" wearing the uniform.

These guys stick out like sore thumbs, at least to me they do. And might I add, I get ignored by the opposite sex just as much in uniform as I do when out. But I don't really care that much because that's not why I got into this.

 

[acpilot]

To answer the question...

PIC's:
No less than $50K on government contracts or $8-10K/mo for seasonal work. Over $100/day per diem.

Equipment consists of light to cabin class twins and smaller turbine platforms.

RJ capt's should probably start around here and move up.

SIC's:
No less than $25K in smaller turbine equipment when an SIC is regularly required. Pay increases with expierence and a PIC slot should be offered when minimum times are met and a PIC is needed.

It is beyond me how RJ F/O's can be OK with the first and second year wages. I believe a MINIMUM of $25K is barely acceptable for first year.

These are just my thoughts. This is what *should* be paid in my opinion.

I've never been a regional pilot so my figures may be skewed. I imagine flying 121 has its perks...unfortunately the money doesn't seem to be one of them, yet.

If you absolutely NEED to fly an RJ, be willing to accept lower pay. From what I understand from all of my RJ buddies, it's pretty simple work and there are a lot of pilots "qualified" to do the job...not that contract work is difficult, just different.

Edit:
I'd like to see 121 pay return to acceptable levels. Asking for a pushback and deice beats pushing an airplane into a hanger and waiting for the ice to melt. A color GPS would be really great to have as well!

The question I had to ask myself when I left instruction was, "am I worth more than $20K a year?" I thought I was so I found a job the payed a reasonable sum. I think it was partially luck, but I also held out for a job for as long as I could. It was also just before the "crash" when airlines were hiring like crazy (mid-2006, remember the good...er, better...days?).

 

[Captain Morgan]

AC: I can respect that! Looks pretty good to me.

 

[banditdriver]

Far 91:119

This is how low we can go....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.10&idno=14

learn it, live it, love it

 

[Goose Egg]

Uhm, correction

Goose Egg, you do realize you won't be at 50G for a year 3 crj fo right?

Well, I do now. I ran a few numbers, and it does look like it comes out short of $50k. So what I'm going to do is change my answer to $67k, which is what I came up with for a Y6 CRJ CA, which about when I would expect to upgrade. Anything prior to that point is just "dues paying," meaning that the pay might suck, but I'll have a reasonable expectation of a sustainable income later on--therefore all that stuff that was talked about earlier, i.e. savings, vacations, helping children with school, new road bikes here and there, glider club memberships (ok, we didn't talk about the last two, but those are what I would call "luxury" items.) etc., etc., could be expected down the road, even though it couldn't be provided at the moment; it wouldn't be needed at the moment anyway.

Pardon my revision,
Goose

 

[Goose Egg]

I would look for different kinda work then.

Funny you should mention that. While I have no plans whatsoever to get out of flying altogether, I do have a plan to get some additional schooling... that is when I'm senior enough to bid reserve and not get used very often and have some fairly decent pay when just making garauntee. I'm going to go get a masters in civil engineering (another subject that I've been pretty fascinated with lately, like over the past year.) Then once I get that done, I'll probably bid down to like 65 hours or whatever the minimum is and then do some engineering work on the side. I'll have two different careers that I am "currrent" in, and could provide income in whatever way I needed to.

But let the record show, I have no intentions to quit flying.

I'd do this whether I was married or not just because it's where my interests lie, but the bottom line is that no wife of mine will have to work if she doesn't want to, at least once I get established with a "sustainable" income.

-Goose

 

[Turtlesfly]

Funny you should mention that. While I have no plans whatsoever to get out of flying altogether, I do have a plan to get some additional schooling... that is when I'm senior enough to bid reserve and not get used very often and have some fairly decent pay when just making garauntee. I'm going to go get a masters in civil engineering (another subject that I've been pretty fascinated with lately, like over the past year.) Then once I get that done, I'll probably bid down to like 65 hours or whatever the minimum is and then do some engineering work on the side. I'll have two different careers that I am "currrent" in, and could provide income in whatever way I needed to.

But let the record show, I have no intentions to quit flying.

I'd do this whether I was married or not just because it's where my interests lie, but the bottom line is that no wife of mine will have to work if she doesn't want to, at least once I get established with a "sustainable" income.

-Goose

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha

Okay, sorry.

Now, in all seriousness, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

 

[Goose Egg]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha

Okay, sorry.

Now, in all seriousness, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

ABORT!! ABORT!!! You are right!! It will never work!!! How could I have been so stupid!! Some idiot on flightinfo laughed at me, and my confidence is now completely and utterly deflated! Woe is me!!! Because everything on flightinfo is true!! It's on the internet, so it must be true!!!

Seriously, you just keep those blinders on. Don't ever try to think outside the box. It's too dangerous and scary for you.

-Goose

 

[Captain Morgan]

Sounds like a good idea Goose, I am currently doing a degree online and it's working out pretty good. Never stop learning. Turtlesfly is just a bitter XJT pilot. Sorry it's not working out Turtle, don't worry when one door closes another opens. Hope all is well with you guys/gals over at XJT.

 

[Goose Egg]

Well, you are right. It isn't going well over there at XJT. I'll cut him some slack for that. And good luck to all you XJTers out there. I mean that.

But hey, if I had wanted to avoid mindless ridicule, I probably shouldn't have posted it here! People get on your case for loving flying and tell you to consider other career fields, and then when you do, they get on your case for that! You can't win!!

...unless you don't really care what people have to say until they can put together something cohesive, meaningful, and constructive. Then you're golden.

-Goose

 

[Captain Morgan]

I know my views aren't shared by probably most if not all of the people out there. I believe there is one good facet to this hardship that pilot's are experiencing with regards to pay, qol, benefits, etc. The people who truly don't love it and are riding the coat tails of those who are will leave and rightly so. This isn't a game. For some of us it's a way of life. A way of life that we chose because it makes sense. It makes sense like painting did to Picasso. Those who "paint by numbers" will leave the industry because it wasn't what they really wanted and then a shortage will grant those that are faithful to the industry, the pay, qol, benefits, etc. that we truly deserve.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Wanna know?
Go to this thread and note the original poster. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=118125
This is your next F/O, think times are gonna get better with him voting on your next contract? fWads like him are your future, he will upgrade fast and be most likely the newest 410 klub member.
PBR

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I know my views aren't shared by probably most if not all of the people out there. I believe there is one good facet to this hardship that pilot's are experiencing with regards to pay, qol, benefits, etc. The people who truly don't love it and are riding the coat tails of those who are will leave and rightly so. This isn't a game. For some of us it's a way of life. A way of life that we chose because it makes sense. It makes sense like painting did to Picasso. Those who "paint by numbers" will leave the industry because it wasn't what they really wanted and then a shortage will grant those that are faithful to the industry, the pay, qol, benefits, etc. that we truly deserve.

I am not sure why pilots are programed this way, to always think it will get better. I have been in aviation for 14 year and working for regionals for six. I have been furloughed from one regional and recently I am facing my second furlough. I decided to hang it up in August. I am not trying to be negative but I just can't rationalize this career path anymore. What exactly is the light at the end of the tunnel? I hope someday you guys will get good pay and QOL but for now with the way the industry has been heading the the last 30 years I don't think we will see it for another 30 years, but maybe by that time the retirement age will be 80.

 

[Flyerdan]

I am not sure why pilots are programed this way, to always think it will get better. I have been in aviation for 14 year and working for regionals for six. I have been furloughed from one regional and recently I am facing my second furlough. I decided to hang it up in August. I am not trying to be negative but I just can't rationalize this career path anymore. What exactly is the light at the end of the tunnel? I hope someday you guys will get good pay and QOL but for now with the way the industry has been heading the the last 30 years I don't think we will see it for another 30 years, but maybe by that time the retirement age will be 80.

I think what we will see is that people who are in this business mainly for the money will continue to leave. The people who are in it for their love of flying will stay in it. I can't really complain. I get twice the number of days off a month as people working a regular job. My family gets by pretty well on the pay and the time off allows us to travel and spend more time together.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I think what we will see is that people who are in this business mainly for the money will continue to leave. The people who are in it for their love of flying will stay in it. I can't really complain. I get twice the number of days off a month as people working a regular job. My family gets by pretty well on the pay and the time off allows us to travel and spend more time together.

Exactly the point I was making. Thanks, Flyerdan, you were much more concise with the point than I was.

 

[WayBack]

This is my last month with the airlines. I'm going to teach high school.
Better pay and I have a retirement.

 

[Captain Morgan]

This is my last month with the airlines. I'm going to teach high school.
Better pay and I have a retirement.

Good luck to you. I hope you enjoy your new career.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

At Mesaba our CEO was asked a question at board meeting while we were in bankruptcy. Who will want to work for us or stay employed with us after a 19% paycut? Spanjers (CEO) replied, "The people with aviation in their blood will" I was disgusted with that answer since I knew we were all being played as fools. I tried Horizon and recieved the same results, I stopped thinking with my heart and started thinking with my head. I really hope things turn around for the industry and people will be able to once make a career out of it but the poster asked the question how low we would go and frankly since the regionals started getting into the jet business it was already to low. Airlines will continue to test to see how much aviation is in their pilots blood.

 

[WayBack]

At Mesaba our CEO was asked a question at board meeting while we were in bankruptcy. Who will want to work for us or stay employed with us after a 19% paycut? Spanjers (CEO) replied, "The people with aviation in their blood will" I was disgusted with that answer since I knew we were all being played as fools. I tried Horizon and recieved the same results, I stopped thinking with my heart and started thinking with my head. I really hope things turn around for the industry and people will be able to once make a career out of it but the poster asked the question how low we would go and frankly since the regionals started getting into the jet business it was already to low. Airlines will continue to test to see how much aviation is in their pilots blood.

I come from a long line of airline pilots in my family. Even though "It's in my blood" I have no problem walking away from it. Tired of living from paycheck to paycheck.
I know it will never get better. All the industry has done, is take paycuts....regionals and majors.
Airline pilots will never come close to making what they used to, because no matter what, there is always one guy who will do it for less to further his own career.
Management knows they can crap on the pilot group because the Union does nothing about it. They have no power anymore. They seem to be more of a company team player than the companies upper management.

When I walk away from it all in a couple of weeks, I will have no regrets. I know I'll finally have money to go rent an airplane to fly around on the weekends, and eventually probably be able to own one.

 

[Goose Egg]

Greetings all... Back from a 4-day. Still a little buzzed from that last-leg Coke I had , and can't get to sleep (besides that, I always have trouble sleeping after 11+ hour duty days), so here I am.

The captain I was flying with today and I were talking about something that he brought up, but I have had in the back of my mind for the longest time. Success in the airline industry depends on one thing: timing. We decided that was the biggest determinant of the type of experience one has in the airline industry. If you get hired at the wrong time, it could mean years of reserve.

That's our theory anyway.

Although I suppose it also depends on whether one is willing to move to the junior base--I think that would make a big difference. I don't have all the answers.

And I hate to say this, but in much the same fashion as the rest of the world, success in a flying career depends a lot on one's ability to suffer. I'm sure a lot of people would jump up and argue with me here. I can hear it now, "Oh no we shouldn't have to suffer! That's wrong! We demand a high QOL!!!" The idea of suffering runs so counter to the modern mindset. I think one problem with the whole "jets at regionals" concept is that people took that to mean that since they were flying a jet at an airline, that they all of a sudden were entitled to all the same work rules, compensation, etc. that all the big airlines had--the assumption was "I'm flying a jet; I have arrived." Only the thing is, that really, nobody in a regional has really "arrived," at least that's my feeling. But I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that would argue with me, "Oh yes we have arrived, and we demand the pay to show it!" But it just doesn't work like that. The need for dues-paying continues, whether that need is acknowledged or not. Once someone feels that that have "arrived," then they have arrived, or at least they have gotten as far as they are going to get. A pilot who feels that they have learned all there is to learn, and earned all there is to earn, and assumes that a seniority number is indicative of authority and wisdom, has failed, in my opinion.

Don't misunderstand me, however. There's nothing, and I mean nothing that I'd rather be doing right now than "suffering" as a regional pilot. I understand that in order to get to where I want to go, I need to pay my dues, and I gladly do it. I love flying, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

So my thought is this; work hard, do a good job, learn all you can, and prepare for when the timing is right. If you haven't succeeded, it simply means that you haven't suffered enough yet (then again, I have the perverse mind of an endurance cyclist, so take that with a grain of salt). Luck favors the prepared.

Those are just my opinions. take what you want from my 2am ramblings!

-Goose

P.S. If I were going to blow a wad of cash on a car, it would definitely be the Subaru Impreza WRX STI. I'm a complete sucker for rally cars. What a freakin' awesome ride!

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Well Goose Egg I think you will be in for a lot of "suffering" You will never stop paying your dues in this job. The problem with jets at a regional is that the Majors are adopting the same crappy pay and work rules. Not to mention that with the regionals expanding also slows growth at the Major level. Last recurrent class I was in our VP of Ops was talking to us about the Wide Body Regional class of aircraft, I just about fell off of my chair, thats when my career light started to flicker. I absolutely agree that timing is everything, I wish I had started in the late 50's. UHH but that was little before my time. Good luck.

 

[Captain Morgan]

P.S. If I were going to blow a wad of cash on a car, it would definitely be the Subaru Impreza WRX STI. I'm a complete sucker for rally cars. What a freakin' awesome ride!

I had a 2006 Subaru WRX before I got married. Best car I ever had. The only things that weren't very good with it were the interior and trunk space and the paint was a little thin and you'd get rock chips easily. It was basically a 2 door car with four doors. The performance was amazing though. You should really get one of those if you have the means.

 

[Captain Morgan]

At Mesaba our CEO was asked a question at board meeting while we were in bankruptcy. Who will want to work for us or stay employed with us after a 19% paycut? Spanjers (CEO) replied, "The people with aviation in their blood will" I was disgusted with that answer since I knew we were all being played as fools. I tried Horizon and recieved the same results, I stopped thinking with my heart and started thinking with my head. I really hope things turn around for the industry and people will be able to once make a career out of it but the poster asked the question how low we would go and frankly since the regionals started getting into the jet business it was already to low. Airlines will continue to test to see how much aviation is in their pilots blood.

Sorry my friend, I don't believe it. There aren't that many "in the blood" pilots around. This CEO would be foolish to base his pilot group's willingness to fly for lower off of this assertion. To put it simply, that would be one hell of a gamble. Sounds like if this story is accurate, the comment made in the board room was an off the cuff idea that they hopefully figured out would never materialize. Take a look at Mesa. Most there would be considered people who love to fly and "have it in the blood." How couldn't they with the pay, work rules, strife, and management figures? They're loosing so many people so quickly it's amazing the place is still standing.