How long before airlines start hiring again?

[CFI2766]

There's plenty of blame to go around.

However, the largest culprit is Barney Frank. HE owns the biggest share of the blame for all of this.

 

[cloudkicker1981]

Pretty much. I am going to have to limit what my small business produces in way of income so that my total income does not reach the mark of me owing the government 40% of MY work. Nothing like government mandating a population of under-achievers.

Of course, this is in fact what they want. They need their families to have zero competition.

If your making that kinda doe than why are you flying for the airlines? Im sure you will still be comfortable with a 40percent cut!

 

[JustaNumber]

Im sure you will still be comfortable with a 40 percent cut!

You, like most people infatuated with wealth envy, just don't get how capitalism works (and works very well). It's all about motivation. People are not motivated to work their butts off just to see their results get confiscated. People in this position will just do the minimum, as they will always become resentful of the freeloaders.

There's an interesting story of the first Thanksgiving that you were probably never taught in your government school. The first year that the pilgrims spent in Massachusetts was extremely difficult. (By the way, the only reason they stopped in Mass. instead of continuing on to Virginia was they ran out of beer). Anyway, they worked together to grow crops, but they were dying of starvation. Eventually, Governor William Bradford decided to try something different. He gave each colonist a plot of land, and told them they could keep or even sell their excess. Immediately the colony began to prosper, and the result of that prosperity became what we celebrate as Thanksgiving. Why do we not celebrate the whole story, the true capitalist origin of this country?

As much as it seems unfair, and socialism actually sounds much better, you can't fight basic human nature, and you can't argue with results.

 

[rumorhasit]

How exactly has Obama killed the market? Did he sell off all the shares? More realisitic is the fact that the economy was was already shooting down before O got elected. This was the result of rampant greed and un-regulated speculation in the marketplace.

When the market goes down, sellers sell off and in situations where the greed resulted in colssal business failures, it only aggrevated the market further. This sent the average down. This is what has kept it down because the reality has been shown that the 10000 and 14000 pt markets were largely that high because massive amounts of greed and rampant speculation.

Will the market get better, yes. But don't act like it has to get as high as it was to say it's better. Better will actual see the market adjust and grow slower better reflecting the return to traditional pricinpales vs. the buy, buy, buy method of rampant speculators and un-educated day traders looking to get rich quick without consideration that their actions will lead to what we are currently experiencing.

Well first of all the Dow is an indicator of the economy's future. Obama's policies are scaring the he!! out of the market and since his nomination the market has lost 20% of its value. And what the heck (Andy Griffith moment) is soooo wrong with getting rich?
We are currently experiencing a Barney Frank(and a lot of other dems) screw up.... encouraging Government created business(fanie/Fredie mac) to give money to anyone who wanted a house. Hence you get trickle UP FUBAR!!!!

 

[CX880]

There's plenty of blame to go around.

However, the largest culprit is Barney Frank. HE owns the biggest share of the blame for all of this.

The biggest share of the blame is the people, not any single person. Oil was also a major factor which put the dagger. You can't keep buying and selling into oblivion, pretty soon you'll get what is happening now, a near depression where nothing is worth anything anymore. People were buying houses they couldn't afford, people were doing part time real estate as if they were selling candy. People were borrowing like crazy. It's probably going to get worse this year. Now many people are saying that this is going to chance not only the U.S but the whole world economy forever. I seriously doubt it's going to be good for the airlines at least for the next few years.

 

[cloudkicker1981]

You, like most people infatuated with wealth envy, just don't get how capitalism works (and works very well). It's all about motivation. People are not motivated to work their butts off just to see their results get confiscated. People in this position will just do the minimum, as they will always become resentful of the freeloaders.

There's an interesting story of the first Thanksgiving that you were probably never taught in your government school. The first year that the pilgrims spent in Massachusetts was extremely difficult. (By the way, the only reason they stopped in Mass. instead of continuing on to Virginia was they ran out of beer). Anyway, they worked together to grow crops, but they were dying of starvation. Eventually, Governor William Bradford decided to try something different. He gave each colonist a plot of land, and told them they could keep or even sell their excess. Immediately the colony began to prosper, and the result of that prosperity became what we celebrate as Thanksgiving. Why do we not celebrate the whole story, the true capitalist origin of this country?

As much as it seems unfair, and socialism actually sounds much better, you can't fight basic human nature, and you can't argue with results.

Greed and money will not get you far once your 6ft under. Its easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven. But obviously you are like most people that like to inturpet the rules about sharing to fit your own way of turning a blind eye to people who are without.

Sorry my mommy and daddy couldnt send me to boarding school but they did instill some pretty good morals and values into me. I think I do ok and uncle sam got his share of my money this year too but I still believe you should be thankful for what you have and help thoughs without. Not envious of those with money at all....pretty happy with what I got.

 

[rumorhasit]

Greed and money will not get you far once your 6ft under. Its easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven. But obviously you are like most people that like to inturpet the rules about sharing to fit your own way of turning a blind eye to people who are without.

Sorry my mommy and daddy couldnt send me to boarding school but they did instill some pretty good morals and values into me. I think I do ok and uncle sam got his share of my money this year too but I still believe you should be thankful for what you have and help thoughs without. Not envious of those with money at all....pretty happy with what I got.

"blind eye to people who are without"? do explain?

And...."be the ball and throw yourself!!"

 

[txpilot1974]

Greed and money will not get you far once your 6ft under. Its easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven. But obviously you are like most people that like to inturpet the rules about sharing to fit your own way of turning a blind eye to people who are without.

Are you serious? WOW.

 

[JustaNumber]

Greed and money will not get you far once your 6ft under. Its easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven. But obviously you are like most people that like to inturpet the rules about sharing to fit your own way of turning a blind eye to people who are without.

Sorry my mommy and daddy couldnt send me to boarding school but they did instill some pretty good morals and values into me. I think I do ok and uncle sam got his share of my money this year too but I still believe you should be thankful for what you have and help thoughs without. Not envious of those with money at all....pretty happy with what I got.

So I guess if you want to go to heaven you should make sure that you, cloudkicker, never get rich so you don't turn evil. That's fine by me. Live and let live. But where do you get these "rules about sharing"? I believe in voluntary charitable giving, but if it's not voluntary, it's not really sharing, is it? It's more like stealing. I thought you said you were raised with good moral values? I think the bible has something to say about stealing, but it doesn't say much about mandatory sharing.

Let me ask you this: would you rather live in the United States, one of the most prosperous countries in the world due to the capitalist nature of everyone looking out for their own best interests, or would you rather live in the old Soviet Union, or Cuba, where the "rules about sharing" are strictly enforced?

 

[JustaNumber]

The biggest share of the blame is the people, not any single person. ... You can't keep buying and selling into oblivion, pretty soon you'll get what is happening now, a near depression where nothing is worth anything anymore. People were buying houses they couldn't afford, people were doing part time real estate as if they were selling candy. People were borrowing like crazy...

You, also, don't understand the real miracle that is free market capitalism. It regulates itself, it always finds equilibrium. If you leave the market alone, if you don't try to enact regulations that distort the free exchange of goods and services, then you do want people to "keep buying and selling into oblivion." It's called prosperity.

Please read the above article by Thomas Sowell. He makes it extremely clear that the primary problem was not so much people buying houses they couldn't afford (although, admittedly, that was a contributing factor), the real problem was the government interfering with lenders' ability to determine if a loan was a safe investment or not. Once Fannie and Freddie said, "don't worry about possibly losing money writing worthless mortgages, we'll just buy them from you," the stage was set for disaster. Remember, when the free market was in charge of lending and borrowing, it was one of the safest financial transactions on the planet.

 

[SWA GUY]

Ever get a job from a poor person?

Nuff said.

 

[JustaNumber]

Greed and money will not get you far once your 6ft under. Its easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get to heaven.

Money is not the root of all evil. Money is simply power. And power can be used for good or for evil, depending on the principles and values of the person or entity with that power. Would you rather have power in the hands of the individual (as in you, Cloudkicker, get to have your own power), or in the hands of a tyrannical government (in which you are dependent on the generosity of others who have their own interests to look out for)? Do you believe in freedom and liberty, or are those just buzz words you say on the fourth of July?

 

[flyboyike]

Well first of all the Dow is an indicator of the economy's future. Obama's policies are scaring the he!! out of the market and since his nomination the market has lost 20% of its value. And what the heck (Andy Griffith moment) is soooo wrong with getting rich?
We are currently experiencing a Barney Frank(and a lot of other dems) screw up.... encouraging Government created business(fanie/Fredie mac) to give money to anyone who wanted a house. Hence you get trickle UP FUBAR!!!!

You know what's interesting? Every time Bushie opened his mouth, people just laughed. Every time O'Bambi opens his, the stock market loses another 300 points. I'm not sure which is worse, and I certainly wasn't a great fan of Bushie.

Coincidence or not, 25% drop in the Dow since inauguration day is pretty remarkable.

 

[relief tube]

if you're not in this job yet, it's not too late to change careers. I woulda.

 

[cybourg10]

Wow another Obama=Socialist/Marxist thread.

Bush entered office in 2001 with a budget surplus and 5.5 trillion in national debt, now we have a budget defecit and a 9 trillion dollar defecit. Obama isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but he is way smarter than Bush ever was, and his econmic pollicies so far seem to be in line with actual conservative ideals (if those actual exist anymore). If you knew what a REAL socialist society was you would be spouting idioctic Limbaughism on here. Here is something you may not know:

If you are a republican your party sucks and lies

If you are a democrat your party sucks and lies

They both spend more than they take in and they both lie to the American people on a daily basis, neither party has your interests in mind but they are very good at making you think that they do. Neither party is socialist or facist, they are both slaves to different divisions of corporate America. So stop these stupid rants about Obama and or Bush and wake up. It won't matter in 20 years when China becomes the richest nation on Earth and we go bankrupt when they call in our debts. Try reading what major forces bring down large empires, very rarely is it outside forces (terrorism). The fall of empires usually has to do with internal economic problems (governments spending more than they take in on taxes for long periods of time). Turn off Faux News or MSNBC and read a book.

Back to the main point, I think 2011-2016 will be string hiring years.

 

[JustaNumber]

Cybourg10,
There is actually much that we have in common. I agree with just about everything you wrote (except for the part about Obama's fiscal policies being in line with conservative ideals--spending more in one month than the combined spending of the U.S. Government since its inception is hardly a conservative ideal).

What we can agree on is that politicians on both sides have sold us down the river. They divide and conquer by convincing us to hate each other, while they ruin the country with their own self interest. Doesn't it tick you off that the country is falling apart, and the news is just talking about what Rush did or didn't say?

What we need to do is ignore what the political parties are telling us. We need to focus on the principles we agree on, which are hopefully the same principles agreed on by the founding fathers. Then the solutions to our problems will be self-evident. Be honest. Don't lie. Don't steal. Believe that justice is blind, and no one is above the law. Believe that we all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but that there is no guarantee of equal results. Believe that you work hard for your money, you will give to charity what you want, if you want, without threat of force. Believe that the government answers to us, we don't answer to them.

Do you agree with these principles? They are the answers.

I guess to stay on topic as well, I'll say the economy starts to improve in late 2010, as all the printed pork money starts to enter the economy, but then inflation goes through the roof. The Fed will be then forced to raise interest rates to stratospheric levels in an attempt to cool the economy in a controlled recession that lasts several more years, a la the Carter years. Those were the real good-ol'-days, huh?

 

[KSwift]

You, like most people infatuated with wealth envy, just don't get how capitalism works (and works very well). It's all about motivation. People are not motivated to work their butts off just to see their results get confiscated. People in this position will just do the minimum, as they will always become resentful of the freeloaders.

There's an interesting story of the first Thanksgiving that you were probably never taught in your government school. The first year that the pilgrims spent in Massachusetts was extremely difficult. (By the way, the only reason they stopped in Mass. instead of continuing on to Virginia was they ran out of beer). Anyway, they worked together to grow crops, but they were dying of starvation. Eventually, Governor William Bradford decided to try something different. He gave each colonist a plot of land, and told them they could keep or even sell their excess. Immediately the colony began to prosper, and the result of that prosperity became what we celebrate as Thanksgiving. Why do we not celebrate the whole story, the true capitalist origin of this country?

As the story was told to me, the Indians (Native Americans) helped the pilgrims survive and then were rewarded with all their land being stolen and them forced to live on reservations and start casinos hundreds of years later.

 

[rumorhasit]

Wow another Obama=Socialist/Marxist thread.

Bush entered office in 2001 with a budget surplus and 5.5 trillion in national debt, now we have a budget defecit and a 9 trillion dollar defecit. Obama isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but he is way smarter than Bush ever was, and his econmic pollicies so far seem to be in line with actual conservative ideals (if those actual exist anymore). If you knew what a REAL socialist society was you would be spouting idioctic Limbaughism on here. Here is something you may not know:

If you are a republican your party sucks and lies

If you are a democrat your party sucks and lies

They both spend more than they take in and they both lie to the American people on a daily basis, neither party has your interests in mind but they are very good at making you think that they do. Neither party is socialist or facist, they are both slaves to different divisions of corporate America. So stop these stupid rants about Obama and or Bush and wake up. It won't matter in 20 years when China becomes the richest nation on Earth and we go bankrupt when they call in our debts. Try reading what major forces bring down large empires, very rarely is it outside forces (terrorism). The fall of empires usually has to do with internal economic problems (governments spending more than they take in on taxes for long periods of time). Turn off Faux News or MSNBC and read a book.

Back to the main point, I think 2011-2016 will be string hiring years.

Okay have you seen a socialist society, Because I have. I was in West Germany when the Wall fell and have a peice of it along with a Russian Socialist flag from a split republic. I have visited berlin when there was a wall seperating east from west. So to answer YOUR question...Why yes I have, and it sucked and that is why east and west Germany is one!!!!

 

[JustaNumber]

I also was in Berlin before the wall fell. It is very sobering, and had a profound affect on me, to see not just the wall but the tank traps, mine fields, and machine gun nests, in actual use, ready to be used against a country's own citizens.

Karl Marx did understand that there was a natural progression of society: capitalism morphs into socialism which morphs into fascism which morphs into dictatorship. It always ends with the government pointing a gun at you. That's why the founders thought the second amendment might be a good idea. We need to be paying attention to how the above progression is happening right before our eyes.

 

[JustaNumber]

As the story was told to me, the Indians (Native Americans) helped the pilgrims survive and then were rewarded with all their land being stolen and them forced to live on reservations and start casinos hundreds of years later.

The story told to you was overly simplified and revised through our modern, more civilized perspective. It helps to know that mankind in the past was much more barbaric as a whole than today (remember what scalping was?), and that the pursuit of territorial expansion was a common thing, by both whites and native Ameicans. The only reason the invaders won was they had better weapons. Though today we would argue differently, at the time neither side had a moral superiority.

It is true that the native Americans taught the Pilgrims how to grow corn, but they weren't slave labor, and they didn't provide the settlers with unlimited resources. The pilgrims still had to work hard to grow their own crops, and my story still stands.

 

[cybourg10]

Okay have you seen a socialist society, Because I have. I was in West Germany when the Wall fell and have a peice of it along with a Russian Socialist flag from a split republic. I have visited berlin when there was a wall seperating east from west. So to answer YOUR question...Why yes I have, and it sucked and that is why east and west Germany is one!!!!

And do you think that our current society is at all like the West German society before the wall fell? We have never been a true free market capitalistic country but we are far from West German socialism. We don't have true capitalism and we don't have true socialism, we have Coporate-ism and different rules for different classes. Its amazing to me how one party can spout off about the other being "anti-american" or "socialist" when they themselves can't see their own hypocrisy. Wake the hell up and realize that both parties are equally accountable for the downfall of America, and yet we continue to vote them in office because we the people can't seem to pull our heads out of our a$$es. Stop arguing over abortion or gay marriage or "pretend socialism" for two seconds and realize what real danger this country is in and what needs to be done about it. Continue listening to the doped up Rush Limbaugh, he'll keep telling you what you want to hear.

 

[JustaNumber]

Cybourg10,
You never answered me in post #46. Do you agree with the basic principles of the founding fathers?

 

[cybourg10]

Cybourg10,
There is actually much that we have in common. I agree with just about everything you wrote (except for the part about Obama's fiscal policies being in line with conservative ideals--spending more in one month than the combined spending of the U.S. Government since its inception is hardly a conservative ideal).

What we can agree on is that politicians on both sides have sold us down the river. They divide and conquer by convincing us to hate each other, while they ruin the country with their own self interest. Doesn't it tick you off that the country is falling apart, and the news is just talking about what Rush did or didn't say?

What we need to do is ignore what the political parties are telling us. We need to focus on the principles we agree on, which are hopefully the same principles agreed on by the founding fathers. Then the solutions to our problems will be self-evident. Be honest. Don't lie. Don't steal. Believe that justice is blind, and no one is above the law. Believe that we all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but that there is no guarantee of equal results. Believe that you work hard for your money, you will give to charity what you want, if you want, without threat of force. Believe that the government answers to us, we don't answer to them.

Do you agree with these principles? They are the answers.

I guess to stay on topic as well, I'll say the economy starts to improve in late 2010, as all the printed pork money starts to enter the economy, but then inflation goes through the roof. The Fed will be then forced to raise interest rates to stratospheric levels in an attempt to cool the economy in a controlled recession that lasts several more years, a la the Carter years. Those were the real good-ol'-days, huh?

Not bad prediction, I don't think we see double digit inflation from this but its definately a possibilty. We will most likely see 8-12% interest rates. the real question is after this settles down do we continute to spend more than we make as individuals and country as a whole or do we actually learn from our mistakes and start living within our means and paying down our debt to the Chinese? We also have to fix our trade defecit which is currently the largest trade defecit in the world, its time to start making things in the USA again.

 

[JustaNumber]

Cybourg10,
You never answered me in post #46. Do you agree with the basic principles of the founding fathers?

You still didn't answer me. While there is much we can agree on, we'll never get anywhere if you don't even want to admit that basic principles of right and wrong are the main things we must agree on. Someone once said, if you don't have a set of core principles to guide you, when a crisis hits, people can convince you to do anything.

 

[time builder]

I'm no economist, but there are factors aside from the economy that put us in this situation. Age 65 in particular.

2012 is something to look forward to, but I think you also have to look at flight crew to passenger capacity ratios. Outsourcing to regionals created jobs a few years ago. Higher gas prices and less differential in pay scales between majors and regionals could reverse this trend.

In other words, if they consolidate several RJ routes back to Boeings (or even larger capacity "RJs") that can carry the same number of passengers with less pilots, this drought of pilot jobs may continue past 2012.

More speculation than prediction here. Hope for the best.

 

[jmreii]

I'm no economist, but there are factors aside from the economy that put us in this situation. Age 65 in particular.

2012 is something to look forward to, but I think you also have to look at flight crew to passenger capacity ratios. Outsourcing to regionals created jobs a few years ago. Higher gas prices and less differential in pay scales between majors and regionals could reverse this trend.

In other words, if they consolidate several RJ routes back to Boeings (or even larger capacity "RJs") that can carry the same number of passengers with less pilots, this drought of pilot jobs may continue past 2012.

More speculation than prediction here. Hope for the best.

I have degrees in both business and finance. I still do not understand how airlines in the U.S. make money. The hub and spoke system works well when the economy is good, but it is wasteful in terms of personnel or assets. The industry seems like it is more interested in serving anyone instead of it's core customer which depends on the airline and the region it serves. Customer service is a problem along with too many airlines(seats) chasing too few dollars. The only other industry that I can think of that is very similar to the airline industry is the auto industry. It too requires heavy capital intensive investment and little return on your investment such as a riverboat gambler. No easy fixes here??

 

[cybourg10]

You still didn't answer me. While there is much we can agree on, we'll never get anywhere if you don't even want to admit that basic principles of right and wrong are the main things we must agree on. Someone once said, if you don't have a set of core principles to guide you, when a crisis hits, people can convince you to do anything.

I guess I missed that part. The thing about basic principles is they can be different for everybody. Some founding fathers were very religous and some mocked religion so basic principles may change depending on the person's background and religion. I believe we need a set of laws that protect the basic human rights of individuals, but we can't even agree on what those are. People used to have "core principles" that slaves were okay or that women were inferior to men. I am not very impressed with the "core principles" of some of my fellow countrymen. Its a tough topic because there is no correct answer, and just because we have a democracy and leave it to the people to decide what should be law or not is not always the best route. We will never agree on basic principles. It sounds like you are saying we need to atleast agree on these principles and build our country around them, well it seems every generation has its own ideas of what is right and wrong and that we need to adapt our laws to a constantly changing world......

 

[JustaNumber]

Cybourg10,
I appreciate your well thought out response. While I understand what you are saying, I disagree with you. Yes, the founding fathers were hypocrites, but they knew they were hypocrites. You have to remember that they were trying to design the most perfect form of government they could from scratch, but they were not trying (or able) to redesign a new perfect society from scratch. The colonies were what they were, with slavery warts and all. So the brilliant founders came up with a set of principles that they put into the Declaration of Independence and later the Constitution, that the society could strive to live up to. The words, "All men are created equal" was actually a poison pill they put in that they knew future generations would have to deal with.

No, the basic principles of right and wrong do not change, what can change are the current laws that seek to best fit those principles to the modern world. So when Obama says he will have the most transparent and ethical administration ever, but then does the exact opposite, we as Americans need to call him out on it. This isn't just about Obama, it's about all of our elected officials. It's time to be principled Americans first; that's the only way we'll be able to judge whether our representatives are truly representing us.

 

[CX880]

As much as it would have been painful to watch McCain as pres, one thing's for sure, Obama is not going to help end this recession any sooner. I don't know of a lot of poor people that drive the economy. I just hope that this pick wasn't a mistake, as so many presidents and leaders tend to be when people choose based on feelings. I'm sure Stalin ran based on change and the feeling of the people as well... The good thing is that obama only has a couple of years vs 50.

,

 

[JustaNumber]

As much as it would have been painful to watch McCain as pres, one thing's for sure, Obama is not going to help end this recession any sooner. I don't know of a lot of poor people that drive the economy.

Fully agreed. Obama is not doing anything to aid or promote small business, the driver of our economy. To tie this all back to aviation (sorry for the thread drift), all the liberal attacks on both big business spending (as in, travel for lots of businessmen to resorts) and private jet usage, mean death to the piloting profession. Every business in America is now afraid they will come under attack if they host a seminar somewhere. I guarantee that this will cause a significant reduction in business travel, which will lead to more furloughs. After you get furloughed, think you could get a corporate jet job for a while? Not a chance, as the same companies are selling their jets as fast as you can say Bawney Fwank.

I know that politics seem kind of boring for many people, but who you vote for (and why) can make a tremendous difference in your life. It's time to start paying attention!