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How gullible does JetBlue think we are?

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Dave Benjamin

an over 40 victim of fate
Joined
Jun 12, 2003
Posts
1,040
Article in USA Today - Be sure to read the quote near the bottom from Jenny Dervin, JetBlue spokewoman

U.S. airline pilots complaining more about fatigue
WASHINGTON (Reuters) — A growing number of U.S. airline pilots are complaining about fatigue from longer work days brought on by crew schedule changes at airlines that have restructured, or continue to restructure in bankruptcy, the nation's top pilots' union said Thursday.
The Air Line Pilots Association also said at least one airline, JetBlue Airways, is pressuring regulators for an exemption to federal limits on crew time, especially on long-haul flights.
JetBlue says it would like more flexibility to improve quality of life for pilots, not for economic reasons.
The union represents aviators at the biggest airlines that have sought bankruptcy since 2002 — United Airlines, US Airways, Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines as well as some smaller carriers.
Regulations limit pilots to eight hours of flying time on domestic service in any 24-hour period. But actual work days negotiated in union contracts — including flight preparation and airport down time — were usually capped around 16 hours.
In reality, thousands of ALPA pilots at struggling carriers worked less than 14 hours daily until their companies gutted contracts and sought more productivity in bankruptcy to compete better with nimble low-cost rivals. Any schedule cushions in previous contracts have been eroded by restructuring.
"It used to be 80% of the industry had a 14-hour duty day. But now most of that is gone. It's just gone," Duane Woerth, president of the pilots' union, told reporters.
Woerth said financially struggling carriers are at "bare bones" scheduling minimums and complaints are growing from pilots who are flying within the rules but spending more time on the job.
He also said healthier airlines that have managed their crews productively are seeking more efficiency. For instance, Woerth said JetBlue is exploring an exemption from crew scheduling regulations for some long flights.
"My concern is that they're (airlines) going to try and chip away at the minimums we have right now for the good of the consumer and productivity enhancements," Woerth said.
The union says carriers are watching closely to see if JetBlue seeks a waiver from Federal Aviation Administration on crew flight time.
"We don't think pilot scheduling rules are sacred cows. They should be open to examination," said JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin.
Last year, JetBlue ran tests that exceeded the eight-hour flying time limit. A consulting firm is analyzing the data and preliminary results could be available in a month, Dervin said.
The goal, she said, is to find out if changes in flying hours would improve quality of life for pilots. "We don't see any financial benefit to our business whatsoever," Dervin said.
About half of JetBlue's 355 daily flights are long-haul service. The carrier has the most flights of any airline between New York and the West Coast — 25 per day.
 
Oh,..... just take a look at the 190 rates. It's just the begining there. Next there going to charge you for those blue potatoe chips!
 
You do a west bound 6 hour flight followed by a day sleep. Then day sleep for 10 hours and fly a redeye back 5 hours to the east coast. Are you more rested trying to day sleep against your body clock or in turning around and coming straight back? Now, if you have ever done one of these you may see how there may be two sides to this arguement. Im not saying I agree with doing this or if its even a good idea. Jetblue believes its at least worth looking at. Thats what Ms.Dervin is eluding to.

BTW, nice avatar uppercrust. That picture should be face down in a file cabinet inside a dark room, not posted on the internet. Jetblue may change their policies and 190 pay, but youll have to live with that face the rest of your life.
 
Uppercrust said:
Oh,..... just take a look at the 190 rates. It's just the begining there. Next there going to charge you for those blue potatoe chips!

Nice to have a face with the name when they get the application . . .
 
Dave Benjamin said:
"We don't see any financial benefit to our business whatsoever," Dervin said.


She's a lyin' sack, but I think 9hours of flying in, say, a 12 hour duty period would have to be a lot easer on the body than the current 8 in 16.
 
If the FAA ever got off its butt the 50 yr old rules would change for sure.9 hrs with a 2 leg limit would not be unreasonable in a glass A/C. 3 legs would bring it back to 8 hrs, 4 down to 7 hrs.Something like this would be a start.Cut duty day down to 14 hrs max.Body time should come into play too. I think in the JAR world they can fly 9 hrs with 2 pilots.Jet Blues coast to coast turns would be to much I think.11 hrs would just be bit over the top for me unless it was one leg.
 
Both situations are not good for safety of your health!

zkmayo said:
You do a west bound 6 hour flight followed by a day sleep. Then day sleep for 10 hours and fly a redeye back 5 hours to the east coast. Are you more rested trying to day sleep against your body clock or in turning around and coming straight back? Now, if you have ever done one of these you may see how there may be two sides to this arguement. Im not saying I agree with doing this or if its even a good idea. Jetblue believes its at least worth looking at. Thats what Ms.Dervin is eluding to.

BTW, nice avatar uppercrust. That picture should be face down in a file cabinet inside a dark room, not posted on the internet. Jetblue may change their policies and 190 pay, but youll have to live with that face the rest of your life.

I do not like the current way that the trans-con schedules are put together. There are way too many schedules that alternate between red-eyes and day sleeps followed by a return to the other coast and then switching to an a.m. schedule. I feel that this is not only hard and your health, but after a full month of this type of schedule safety starts to become a concern. I would be completely against further increasing the flight time limitation inorder to be able to do any sort a trans-con turn. I have heard the arguments both for and against this type of exemption, however I fully believe in the long run it would be detrimental to our pilot group.

What I would like to see is a comprehensive scheduling guide that spells out in plain language our exact policies and rules. Currently there is way too much left to intrepretation of the individual pilot and scheduler. I would also like to see more schedules that show some respect for circadian rhythms.

Currently we are very productive. This month the average daily credit for most pilots is around 6 hours. That is just about as good as it gets. I see no need to further increase the amount a daily flying and spend more time in the aircraft flying a domestic schedule. Personally 6 hours a day is enough, espically when you are switching time zones and going from a.m. to p.m. schedules with several red-eyes thrown in for good measure.

Overall I am very happy working at JetBlue. We have some of the best people I have ever worked with and a management that actually does try to make things right. However, as with any employeer, there is room for impovement. For a company that is less than 6 years in the making I think we are doing quite well. Espically since we currently only account for less than 2% ASM's in the domestic market. I cannot wait to see what things look like in another 6 years from now.

Cheers!
 
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We all are suject to a 16 hour duty day.
Why not be able to make more than 8 hours of pay in that 16 hour day?
Flying 2 legs worth 10 hours in a 12 to 13 hour duty day is much less
fatiguing than 5 or 6 legs in 16 hour duty day.

jetBlue builds some of the most productive schedules in the business!

I like to come to work, get-er-done and go home.
 
I like to come to work,get-er-done and go home.

Airbus Gear Boy said:
We all are suject to a 16 hour duty day.
Why not be able to make more than 8 hours of pay in that 16 hour day?
Flying 2 legs worth 10 hours in a 12 to 13 hour duty day is much less
fatiguing than 5 or 6 legs in 16 hour duty day.

jetBlue builds some of the most productive schedules in the business!

I like to come to work, get-er-done and go home.

I would like to see the duty day changed to something more reasonable like 12 hours with a max of 8 hours of flying.

I agree that 5 or 6 legs with a 16 hour duty day is very fatiguing, I did many of those and quite a few 7 or 8 leg days in a 16 hour duty day. They totaly suck. I think the entire FAR's need changing when it comes to duty and flight regualtions for domestic 121 ops.

Cheers!
 
I am for being able to do day time trans cons. If someone says they only get tired while the parking brake is off they are a liar. I have flown over eight hours due to legal to start legal to finish but being on duty for 16hrs was by far worse.

With comparing our 190 pay to canadan money, maybe we could use there duty day, 14hrs and no flight time limitations. (for a crew of two).

Trans con turns.:D ;)
 
Depending on the time of day, some of our block times from JFK to SFO are 6 hours and 57 mins on the Song 757 (probably 57 mins for taxi), and a bit less for LA. If there are delays on either end (less in LA probably), it could mean a very long day, and with probable WX delays or traffic delays coming back to JFK---could mean disaster. I wonder why ALPA just put out a fatigue survey and gave the responses to the media? Good job ALPA.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
dlredline said:
Nice to have a face with the name when they get the application . . .

I don't think that we have to worry, the Gulfstream site said that he was a new hire at Airtran. Lucky them.

Funny how Uppercrust is all in a tizzy about the 190 rates when he went and plunked down a lot of cash at Gulfstream. In all actuallity, he's probably someone just trying to stir the pot and using some poor shmuck's mug shot.
 
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Uppercrust said:
Oh,..... just take a look at the 190 rates. It's just the begining there. Next there going to charge you for those blue potatoe chips!

Hey look, it's Mr. Flamebait, at it again.

The bad spelling and horrible picture have to be a set-up as an invitation to flame this guy...

I mean, pay to play, calls himself 'uppercrust', and that avatar? C'mon....

If he's for real, the only action he's getting on an overnight is if he pays to play, too.
 
Here at Expressjet, I tend to do day trips. The majoirty of our day trips are 4 legs with a bunch of sit time (I try for the two leggers if I can)...but anyway an example would be GSP turn followed by a 2.5 hour sit then SYR sit for an hour then return. They end up being about 6 hours of flight time and about 12-13 hours of duty. Now I know how important it is to maintain rest standards but if I have to do 12 or 13 hours of duty anyway, I'd rather bank in 10 or 11 hours of flight time. 12-13 hours of duty is rough but not killer...it's when my last leg gets screwed and I end up doing 14-16 that I get really tired. Point is that I get tired whether I'm complaining about sitting around or flying but I'd even add that sitting around is more tiring that flying. It's all about the duty time when it comes to fatigue.
If they were restricted to the day, maybe with an IRO type of setup for good measure, I'd rather do a transcon turn than go out, rest for 8 hours during the day then fly back. The 8 hours of "rest" when I can't go to sleep would be worse than just spinning around and coming home. And talk about a productive trip! The other thing is that it would have to be restricted to have the day before and after off.
6 out and 5 back roughly...11 hours. Imagine only having to do that twice a week 88 hours of pay and 20+ days off....sounds good to me. Hell I might pick one more up to make it 99 hours and lose one day off. At Jetblue pay, which many people tend to forget is better than most of the Legacy's these days, that could be some good coin.

Besides you can already do this internationally, whats the difference?
 
General Lee said:
Depending on the time of day, some of our block times from JFK to SFO are 6 hours and 57 mins on the Song 757 (probably 57 mins for taxi), and a bit less for LA. If there are delays on either end (less in LA probably), it could mean a very long day, and with probable WX delays or traffic delays coming back to JFK---could mean disaster. I wonder why ALPA just put out a fatigue survey and gave the responses to the media? Good job ALPA.


Bye Bye--General Lee


Yeah, I think if everything went perfect, no delays, no wx issues, ect...you might be able to do a east-west turn in 14 hrs block. That's best case, imo.

Good luck.
 

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