HOW does the Netejts base system save them money

[FLYLOW22]

Everything Boisture...

Everything Boisture touched here turned to crap.

Crew Food... the new program is costing as much as the old one.

Extra aircraft sold... what extra planes!?!??!? Ummm ok... just sell off the trips!

Domiciles for all newhires even though the company doesn;t know where crews and rigs need to be on any given Sunday.... ummmm ok. Anything else Bill? Perhaps we should all wear moose antlers to work?

Glad he's gone. We can get back to erasing his "legacy".

Billy B... A trainwreck coming to a town near you.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Wasn't it BB brainstorm to have 5 Domiciles? Somebody should ask him next time he's flying on one of our planes for personal use.

Many of his ideas were head-scratchers to me too but the only thing I asked him a couple weeks ago was how his golf game was coming along....

 

[LostComm]

A Wedgie

It's my opinin that whatever the initial intent of the domicile system, I fear that it could end up driving a wedge between the pilot group.

I'm sure some of you here have seen the "I've got mine, get your own" mentality develop within what was initially a strongly united group.

It does not need be this way, but if care is not taken to deal with the issues this will create over time (assuming status quo), then it will be a factor in future bargaining.

 

[gunfyter]

Come on be easy on Gun, I am sure he was just pipe dreaming.

Here is an example,

On day six... last leg leaves TEB 2230E and arrives at SFO at 0030P on day 7. FO turns on his pager and says "We got airlines tomorrow morning home."

I turn on my pager and I have a show at legal... Ferry to SAN, pax to DAL (my gateway) great. Oh no there is more... REPO to DFW and take a taxi to DAL get there at 2345C.

FO Laughs at me....

Then I have a 5.5 hr drive home!

I already had about 40 hrs of flight time in the first 6 days.
I was so Pissed I couldnt even sleep that night.

Preflighted the plane in the morning and fell off the X and broke my right arm.

Game over ...rest of the day in the ER. Airline home on Day 8.


But my solution was just to the PROBLEM of paying overtime to pilots... I thought that was the complaint ... If you get rid of first and last day overtime ... its basically near nothing.

Yes it is INTELLIGENT. Now quit complaining about paying extended days to people who dont get home on time.

 

[CapnVegetto]

No matter how you cut the mustard, the 5 domicile deal is just a bad idea. I just don't think it's saving that much money, if any. All it's doing is pi$$ing pilots off. It's also greatly reducing the amount of applicants that are coming o NJA, I'm sure.

You wanna have domiciles, fine. No big deal. Just make sense with them. Have a lot of large hub choices, not just one. There are so many airports out there with a TON of airline service:

ATL, EWR, JFK, LGA, PHL, BWI, IAD, CLT, MIA, DTW, MSP, ORD, CLE, MEM, DFW, STL, DEN, LAX, SFO, SEA, PHX, LAS, just to name a few. All of these airports are airline HUBS, which means you can get most anywhere in one leg. With even just a little bit of frickin planning, you could optimize crew placement and get them to airplanes in one frickin leg, or in a lot of cases by taxi, and it would probably be a helluva lot cheaper than sticking everyone in 5 cities and airlining the hell out of 'em.

Of course, I don't really believe this whole domicile thing is meant to optimize anything. I think it's something that management looks at as salvage from a failed contract negotiation on their part. When it comes renewal time, they've got a carrot that they're going to try to dangle in front of the pilots in exchange for smaller raises. Oh they'll whine, bitch, pi$$ and moan about how it's going to cost them money to open more domiciles, the pilots should take less pay because they're so nice in doing this, and waaaaah waaaah waaaaaah waaaaaaah, when in reality, it's going to SAVE them money and also increase the qualified applicant pool by a ton.

Well, there's my prediction anyway.

 

[ThisistheDream]

the pilots that where at NJA before the new contract was signed are grandfatherd into having thier original gateway base correct? if so for how long are they grandfatherd in? so when you finish a trip in lets say SAN and you base is DFW can you tell them to get you to MSP instead if the ticket is equal or less then flying back to DFW, or will they let you pay the 50- 100 buck difference??

 

[Waterboy622]

NJA will pay whatever it costs to get them to their HBA. If they chose to go elsewhere they are responsible for getting and paying for their own ticket. NJA will re-imburse up to the amount of the original ticket to the orginal airport. None more. If their ticket is more, then NJA pays only what it costs to the HBA. If it is less then when they submit that reciept, they get re-imbursed that amount. They can't make a profit from it.

 

[Diesel]

I love how people aren't asking the big question why doesn't NJI have domiciles? Why do their pilots continue to have hba basing.

Then you hear the same old argument that NJA is so much bigger than NJI.

Yet that argument doesn't hold water because I as a X captain can not go fly a XL so in essence NJA is really a bunch of little NJI's. Which should make it even easier to get the pilots from and to where they are going.

But unfortunatly managment and ineffeciant scheduling has decided that the last day should be the punishment/screwup day and getting the pilot home is the last care in the world.

And the world keeps turning around and around. PS the above post was not to blame or put NJI guys in a bad light. Just to show that we are much more alike than we think. Except the 450/550 guys because they can swap from one type to the other.

but you get my point.

 

[d91papa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the chronology of the HBA and 5 domicile system currently at NJA evolved thus:

NJA originally had a limited pilot domicile system. An LOA created ~25 gateway cities, which remained in effect until the current CBA HBA/Domicile situation.

Now, what transpired during the contract negotiations, to give up 25 gateways for HBA, a seemingly disadvantage ($) situation for the company, to 5 domiciles which do not give significant economic return for the company? Why wouldn't NJA release a statement regarding the advantage to the company reliazed by 5 domiciles? Maybe if the rationale were revealed, we'd all be supportive.

 

[NJA Capt]

Real intelligence there.

Intelligence? How about:
1. 1st day of 3, airline to opposite coast, non-domicile city. Day 2 of 3, airline to another non-domicile city to fly 1.0 hours revenue trip to LAX. Day 3 of 3 airline back to other coast. I spent (3) 12+ hour duty days and endured 13 hours airlining to fly 1 hour revenue. Productive?

2. Day 7: 30 min flight away from DFW and 30 min from a service center, instead we ferried the plane 2.5 hours to a "former" gateway airport.

Airlining all the way across the country to meet an airplane is absurd (Yet I do it frequently). I live within 100 miles of a service center and within 500 miles of 6 maint facilities. NJA wanted to streamline ops by utilizing 5 cities for crew changes/maint, so why aren't we using them for that purpose?

 

[sweptwingz]

NJA wanted to streamline ops by utilizing 5 cities for crew changes/maint, so why aren't we using them for that purpose?

Because, the company's REAL goals were to sew discord in the pilot group for the next contract, thus getting us to forfit any large pay raises in the future in exchange for "fly from home basing" for ALL crews.

 

[Hogprint]

Here is my question...what has changed?

My former Gateway city had a ton of Ultra crews. The company was good about pairing two of us up from that GW and we would go forth and do productive things for seven days. They did such a good job at this that I was paired up with same GW guys/gals over 90% of the time. Pretty efficient in my book.

HBA has kicked in now for seven months or so and I've only flown with two people from the same region!? I'm still only a 30min flight from the former gateway, as are most of the other folks that were formerly gatewayed there. What has changed? Why would they take an efficient system where they had plenty of crews and now shotgun me all over the country on day one? I've even sat standby (at home) on day one several times now just to wait on a crewmember when I know there are plenty 30 mins away.

It's stuff like this that does worry me about this place!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Because, the company's REAL goals were to sew discord in the pilot group for the next contract, thus getting us to forfit any large pay raises in the future in exchange for "fly from home basing" for ALL crews.

I hope the pilot group as a whole pledges to not let HBA become an economic issue next time around. The company has already demonstrated that HBA isn't a cost issue for them (see NJI) and there are plenty of examples of pilots already in domiciles not flying with others from that domicile.

 

[swampfan]

I know it's different for everyone, but I will not take less money for HBA's. I am PBI domiciled right now. I do not want to live there, but I would rather have a larger increase in pay and a commute than an HBA and little/no pay raise. If the company offers higher pay and HBA status quo or lower pay and HBA for all, I'll take the money. Then again, I have changed my mind once or twice:nuts:

 

[WrknStff]

The problem is that by the time the next contract comes around, if hiring goes as they keep saying, a significant portion of the seniority list will be folks hired after this contract was signed (conceivably, they could even make up a numerical majority if turnover and hiring is as high as some predict). In other words annoyed people still stuck in the domiciles. I'm sure a lot of those folks will expect the domicile policy to be changed and that makes it a negotiating point (ie wedge) for the company to use against the pilot group. That's why you won't see any LOA or changes before the next contract comes up regardless of whether it will save the company money or not.

 

[NJA Capt]

The problem is that by the time the next contract comes around, if hiring goes as they keep saying, a significant portion of the seniority list will be folks hired after this contract was signed (conceivably, they could even make up a numerical majority if turnover and hiring is as high as some predict). In other words annoyed people still stuck in the domiciles.

In order for newhires to become a majority the company would have to hire over 450 pilots/yr for 5 straight years, with (0) attrition. The company has never accomplished a hire rate that high, even in the boom years when airplanes were delivered every 6 days. The highest attrition has historically been with pilots in their first two years. Although it is a significant issue I don't believe HBA pilots will be outnumbered by newhires in time for the next round of negotiations.

 

[hopalong]

You all bring up some great points. I understand that NJA may be using the hba issue as a bargaining chip vs. raises in the next negotiation. However, do
you thing if we drafted a letter, citing specific examples of how NJA is losing
money, they would change their mind? I am new to NJA and start 7/10 and want this to be my final job. I am sure all of us want NJA to thrive and be successful. I wonder if we all wrote down all of the examples of how much money NJA is losing because of this inefficiency and presented this to them,
do you think they would change their mind? We can let them know that we want our jobs for the long term and we want NJA to be profitable and succeed. We are not in it to just get our way but to help NJA save money and prevent even more loss due to employee turnover. What are your thoughts?

 

[swampfan]

We have an official form to submit for examples of waste. Ideally, these things would be acted upon. I don't know if they are.

 

[d91papa]

Considering the inefficiencies as reported through-out the operation, I'm not too confident about a very long career with NJA. Fuel is only going to increase in price causing pressure on the entire consumer driven economy..with inflation and interest rates rising, this could all be over before you can say V1 Rotate. Any business model that is inefficient in this scenario cannot survive. But hey, I probably read too much liberal media!

 

[RNObased]

To answer the origanial question as to how this saves NJA money.... The answer is it doens't. They may think it does, but it doesn't. Doesn't matter where you are in the country, Montana or LAX, scheduling will airline you to the other side of the country.

So the answer is until someone gets scheduling under control and they are responsible for their dumb moves, the base idea won't work.

Now as for them using this as a chip for negotations for the next contract, well that is a long way off and they aren't that smart.