HOW does the Netejts base system save them money

[ThisistheDream]

HOW does the Netjets base system save them money?

With NJA now having 5 bases that you can only have how does that same them money in the long run? Are you always flying an aircraft from your base with paying passenger to your 1st destination and always flying paying passengers from a city back to your base on the last day of your stretch? reason being, if your base is for example DAL and on the 1st day of your stretch you fly on an airline from DAL to LAS to meet the plane and then do your flying and on the last day you finish in Denver and fly an airline back to DAL what good or difference is it if you lived in MSP and the flew out to met the plane and back to MSP after your trip versus back to a base? or ever more expensive if you ferry from DAL your base and then meet passenger in LAS, the cost to ferry an airplane to get into position and back to base after your stretch would be more costly then if you just flew the airlines to meet the plane etc. ?? Can any NJA pilots explain how this system helps or saves them money??thanks

 

[Waterboy622]

The problem is that crews typically won't pick nice easy airports like MSP to fly into and out of. So when trying to get a crew member home on their last day to an airport in the middle of Montana (example) with limited duty time, we end up incurring extended days due to limited airline service and after midnight arrivals.

 

[ThisistheDream]

if thats part of the problem having pilots living in small cities with limited airline service then why not keep the bases to large cities that have alot of airline service to rather than just 5 cities like they did in the past and like other fractionals. I know alot of pilots including myself that with this limited base option now in place and not being able to jumpseat cant take a job with netjets

 

[Waterboy622]

I understand the frustration. We are just now starting to see people hired after the contract finishing up IOE that are making these very long commutes. ie. Virgnia to TEB. Some of the contract allows crew members to book their own flight to where ever they want to oget home. They then get re-imbursed up to the amount that an airline ticket would cost to get them to one of the gateway airports. This is starting to be used more and more. The down side is that your car is now at the gateway airport. I believe mgmts thought is that over time more pilots will eventually end up at gateway airports.

 

[ThisistheDream]

I just cant see the benefit for the way fractionals are set up to have just 5 bases rather 15 or 20 in only big metro cities. the only way i can see it as a benefit for them is if the 1st and last leg of your stretch is flying paying passenger from the base and back to your base, otherwise your just paying to fly the crews out of a base and back to a base or ferrying the plane which is even more cost.

 

[RTRHD]

Good post's Waterboy. I hate to see guys having to live like this. I used to commute just three hours every three day. That sucked.

 

[Waterboy622]

I think the belief is that these 5 bases are postioned geographically so that the do not necessarily prohibit ferry to these places to get crews home. Plus these are places that we get most of out MX done. I think you make a good point in the fact that maybe opening up some more would help new hires. The theory might be that over time we will have all of these crews at the 5 bases and we could just switch crews out from the 7/7 schedule. You are right in saying that the chances of flying pax in and out of your base is slim; in CMH. But TEB is a different story. Time will tell if this sticks around for the long run.

 

[Waterboy622]

No to mention that these places are where most of our pax trips start and end.

 

[Just Peachy]

bases

Scheduling does whatever they want... were now starting to ferry crews to planes ( have done that off and on in the past) and with most all commercial flts full, were probably going to see more crew ferrys....

 

[CA1900]

I'll also be curious how many of these new-hires bail to a good 91 job because of the onerous commutes to work, with a free type rating from NetJets and no training contract.

I can see this costing more money than it saves, if that ends up happening. From an outsider's point of view, the only thing this is providing them is negotiating leverage for the next contract.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I'll also be curious how many of these new-hires bail to a good 91 job because of the onerous commutes to work, with a free type rating from NetJets and no training contract.

I can see this costing more money than it saves, if that ends up happening. From an outsider's point of view, the only thing this is providing them is negotiating leverage for the next contract.

I think you've touched on some good points. Without a training contract, it gets costly for the company to have new-hires bail for a different job, after all of the time and money to train them and finally get them out on line. I think if enough new pilots leave, it will raise a red flag somewhere. But if the idea is for the domicile issue to be a bargaining chip in the next negotiations, then the company may stubbornly hold their line on domiciles-only for new-hires.

For the domicile issue to change between now and the next contract, it'll likely take a combination of the applicant pool drying up and a decent number of new-hires to quit within the first year or so of employment. But that's just my opinion.

 

[gunfyter]

Solution:

No revenue flights for crewmembers on Day 1 or 7.... Movement to Hotel or home only. That way its no problem getting to and from middle of montana.

 

[jetfo]

The problem is that crews typically won't pick nice easy airports like MSP to fly into and out of. So when trying to get a crew member home on their last day to an airport in the middle of Montana (example) with limited duty time, we end up incurring extended days due to limited airline service and after midnight arrivals.

Good point, but then why not allow home basing at all major airports? You can't have home basing in Bozeman but you can have it in Minneapolis.

 

[Majik]

Good point, but then why not allow home basing at all major airports? You can't have home basing in Bozeman but you can have it in Minneapolis.

You'll have to ask The Great Santulli.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Wasn't it BB brainstorm to have 5 Domiciles? Somebody should ask him next time he's flying on one of our planes for personal use.

 

[NJACMH]

The problem is that crews typically won't pick nice easy airports like MSP to fly into and out of. So when trying to get a crew member home on their last day to an airport in the middle of Montana (example) with limited duty time, we end up incurring extended days due to limited airline service and after midnight arrivals.

I agree, however you forgot something though, you also need to deny NorthWest since none of them including the NW president and NW pilots honor the strike, except NetJets pilots . I know they would honor a NetJets strike. LOL!!!

 

[DO-82 driver]

NJA...I have never taken or have had the opportunity to take MW mainline and the Company still has a difficult time getting me back to my HBA and its one of the 5 busiest airports in the Nation.

Face it my friend.....scheduling is nothing more that crisis management.

Nothing will change until they get their act together....This whole company is suffering because of them.

 

[notaNJApilot]

Solution:

No revenue flights for crewmembers on Day 1 or 7.... Movement to Hotel or home only. That way its no problem getting to and from middle of montana.

Are you serious?

 

[NJACMH]

Are you serious?

He sure is. I bet NetJets would sure save alot of money to have 2 less days out of every crew. Real intelligence there.

 

[RTRHD]

He sure is. I bet NetJets would sure save alot of money to have 2 less days out of every crew. Real intelligence there.

Come on be easy on Gun, I am sure he was just pipe dreaming.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Everything Boisture...

Everything Boisture touched here turned to crap.

Crew Food... the new program is costing as much as the old one.

Extra aircraft sold... what extra planes!?!??!? Ummm ok... just sell off the trips!

Domiciles for all newhires even though the company doesn;t know where crews and rigs need to be on any given Sunday.... ummmm ok. Anything else Bill? Perhaps we should all wear moose antlers to work?

Glad he's gone. We can get back to erasing his "legacy".

Billy B... A trainwreck coming to a town near you.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Wasn't it BB brainstorm to have 5 Domiciles? Somebody should ask him next time he's flying on one of our planes for personal use.

Many of his ideas were head-scratchers to me too but the only thing I asked him a couple weeks ago was how his golf game was coming along....

 

[LostComm]

A Wedgie

It's my opinin that whatever the initial intent of the domicile system, I fear that it could end up driving a wedge between the pilot group.

I'm sure some of you here have seen the "I've got mine, get your own" mentality develop within what was initially a strongly united group.

It does not need be this way, but if care is not taken to deal with the issues this will create over time (assuming status quo), then it will be a factor in future bargaining.

 

[gunfyter]

Come on be easy on Gun, I am sure he was just pipe dreaming.

Here is an example,

On day six... last leg leaves TEB 2230E and arrives at SFO at 0030P on day 7. FO turns on his pager and says "We got airlines tomorrow morning home."

I turn on my pager and I have a show at legal... Ferry to SAN, pax to DAL (my gateway) great. Oh no there is more... REPO to DFW and take a taxi to DAL get there at 2345C.

FO Laughs at me....

Then I have a 5.5 hr drive home!

I already had about 40 hrs of flight time in the first 6 days.
I was so Pissed I couldnt even sleep that night.

Preflighted the plane in the morning and fell off the X and broke my right arm.

Game over ...rest of the day in the ER. Airline home on Day 8.


But my solution was just to the PROBLEM of paying overtime to pilots... I thought that was the complaint ... If you get rid of first and last day overtime ... its basically near nothing.

Yes it is INTELLIGENT. Now quit complaining about paying extended days to people who dont get home on time.

 

[CapnVegetto]

No matter how you cut the mustard, the 5 domicile deal is just a bad idea. I just don't think it's saving that much money, if any. All it's doing is pi$$ing pilots off. It's also greatly reducing the amount of applicants that are coming o NJA, I'm sure.

You wanna have domiciles, fine. No big deal. Just make sense with them. Have a lot of large hub choices, not just one. There are so many airports out there with a TON of airline service:

ATL, EWR, JFK, LGA, PHL, BWI, IAD, CLT, MIA, DTW, MSP, ORD, CLE, MEM, DFW, STL, DEN, LAX, SFO, SEA, PHX, LAS, just to name a few. All of these airports are airline HUBS, which means you can get most anywhere in one leg. With even just a little bit of frickin planning, you could optimize crew placement and get them to airplanes in one frickin leg, or in a lot of cases by taxi, and it would probably be a helluva lot cheaper than sticking everyone in 5 cities and airlining the hell out of 'em.

Of course, I don't really believe this whole domicile thing is meant to optimize anything. I think it's something that management looks at as salvage from a failed contract negotiation on their part. When it comes renewal time, they've got a carrot that they're going to try to dangle in front of the pilots in exchange for smaller raises. Oh they'll whine, bitch, pi$$ and moan about how it's going to cost them money to open more domiciles, the pilots should take less pay because they're so nice in doing this, and waaaaah waaaah waaaaaah waaaaaaah, when in reality, it's going to SAVE them money and also increase the qualified applicant pool by a ton.

Well, there's my prediction anyway.

 

[ThisistheDream]

the pilots that where at NJA before the new contract was signed are grandfatherd into having thier original gateway base correct? if so for how long are they grandfatherd in? so when you finish a trip in lets say SAN and you base is DFW can you tell them to get you to MSP instead if the ticket is equal or less then flying back to DFW, or will they let you pay the 50- 100 buck difference??

 

[Waterboy622]

NJA will pay whatever it costs to get them to their HBA. If they chose to go elsewhere they are responsible for getting and paying for their own ticket. NJA will re-imburse up to the amount of the original ticket to the orginal airport. None more. If their ticket is more, then NJA pays only what it costs to the HBA. If it is less then when they submit that reciept, they get re-imbursed that amount. They can't make a profit from it.

 

[Diesel]

I love how people aren't asking the big question why doesn't NJI have domiciles? Why do their pilots continue to have hba basing.

Then you hear the same old argument that NJA is so much bigger than NJI.

Yet that argument doesn't hold water because I as a X captain can not go fly a XL so in essence NJA is really a bunch of little NJI's. Which should make it even easier to get the pilots from and to where they are going.

But unfortunatly managment and ineffeciant scheduling has decided that the last day should be the punishment/screwup day and getting the pilot home is the last care in the world.

And the world keeps turning around and around. PS the above post was not to blame or put NJI guys in a bad light. Just to show that we are much more alike than we think. Except the 450/550 guys because they can swap from one type to the other.

but you get my point.

 

[d91papa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the chronology of the HBA and 5 domicile system currently at NJA evolved thus:

NJA originally had a limited pilot domicile system. An LOA created ~25 gateway cities, which remained in effect until the current CBA HBA/Domicile situation.

Now, what transpired during the contract negotiations, to give up 25 gateways for HBA, a seemingly disadvantage ($) situation for the company, to 5 domiciles which do not give significant economic return for the company? Why wouldn't NJA release a statement regarding the advantage to the company reliazed by 5 domiciles? Maybe if the rationale were revealed, we'd all be supportive.

 

[NJA Capt]

Real intelligence there.

Intelligence? How about:
1. 1st day of 3, airline to opposite coast, non-domicile city. Day 2 of 3, airline to another non-domicile city to fly 1.0 hours revenue trip to LAX. Day 3 of 3 airline back to other coast. I spent (3) 12+ hour duty days and endured 13 hours airlining to fly 1 hour revenue. Productive?

2. Day 7: 30 min flight away from DFW and 30 min from a service center, instead we ferried the plane 2.5 hours to a "former" gateway airport.

Airlining all the way across the country to meet an airplane is absurd (Yet I do it frequently). I live within 100 miles of a service center and within 500 miles of 6 maint facilities. NJA wanted to streamline ops by utilizing 5 cities for crew changes/maint, so why aren't we using them for that purpose?