How do they do it at EJA?

4fanman

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How is the flying divvied (is that a word?) up at EJA?

Do you guys/gals alternate legs or does the capt fly with pax on board and the fo gets the empty plane?
 

Mach92

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As a rule of thumb the Capt flys the pax legs and the F/O flys the empty legs. Our SOP's allow F/O's to fly pax legs from there respective seat once both CAPT and F/O have 250 Hours in type. The restricions are: The flight is operated part 91,departure visibility must be standard or greater,forcast arrival weather must be 500/1 above the published minimums,the flight must not require program manager approval. The compnay seems to change these rules often. That being said, my experiences in my fleet (the X) the Capt always flys the pax. I do know some Capts in other fleets that swap legs if the above mentioned rules are met. Hope this helps!
 

tjsatter

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Program manager?

"the flight must not require program manager approval"

What does this mean?

tj
 

stingray

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our program managers are pilots who have taken a management position, a sort of fleet-supervisor who has a inside office job, that is at the company base in columbus.
Different PMs for different aircraft types
Certain situations for us to operate in or with would require a PM's approval, They also handle many other situations within their fleet.
also after 50hrs of sic time you are allowed to fly from the left seat on the repo flights. a recent change time wise. The captain must also have the appropriate expierence for a seat swap to happen.
 
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StaySeated

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The captain flys all the legs with pax? I hope that you guys fly a lot of empty legs. I would lose my mind working the radios all day. Doesn't everyone get typed at EJA? You're a type rated sic but you cant fly with pax? I am not sure I like that rule.
 

COEX-FO

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Yes, I was told that rule by an EJA pilot.

Good thing we don't have that rule in the airlines....FO's would never fly :)

I guess for EJA the FO is really just a gear puller where revenue flights are concerned. That's too bad they don't trust the FO's a bit more.
 

EJA Capt

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COEX-FO said:
Good thing we don't have that rule in the airlines....FO's would never fly :)

I guess for EJA the FO is really just a gear puller where revenue flights are concerned. That's too bad they don't trust the FO's a bit more.

The last time I checked, TRUST was earned, not deserved.

Come on guys, use your noodles here. There are two guys in the cockpit and only one can fly at a time. A newhire can fly empty legs or live legs. Which makes more sense to you, learning the ropes in an empty airplane or irritating the guy in back, that OWNS the airplane?

TRUST? EJA types you in the airplane when you are hired.
TRUST? You upgrade to left seat within your first year.
TRUST? EJA lets you fly left seat after 50 hours in type! Does ANY AIRLINE?
 

sweptwingz

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On the money...

EJA Capt. is on the money as usual. For what it's worth, I feel the
flying here is a lot more challenging here than (MOST) airline or commuter
work. "Black hole" circling approaches, lots of hot and high operations,
short runways, and new airports on almost every tour. The high mins.
requirements here make sense.

Sweptwingz (former commuter pilot, ag pilot, freight dog, EMS / Life Flight
pilot, aerial photography pilot, and "Line Puke")
 

stingray

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Agree with EJA & swept

There are a lot more opportunities here at eja then the rest of you in this topic are looking at.
I've seen many captain upgrades here happen within a month or 2. most are able within a year. How many years will you spend at your job before you even find out what the left seat feels like in a jet.
There is just one of better things here at eja.
re-read ejacapt and sweptwingz post and think about it.
 
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sewertube

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yes

not always, but most of the time every other leg is empty, at least on the ultra. Some of the other planes only fly two legs in a day and they are both pax legs.

On the trust discussion, my last three flying jobs would only allow the captain to call and initiate an abort. I was almost suprised to see how this and many other responsibilities are trusted to the F.O. Including switching seats on the empty legs. I have seen a lot more trust here than elsewhere.

How about other carriers, who gets to decide on an abort? Just curious what other philosophies are in this.
 

COEX-FO

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TRUST perhaps was not the correct word for what I was trying to say. I too agree trust is earned.

Nontheless, I still think that the policy is 'unique' to EJA and perhaps fractionals in general.

If the airlines allow FO's to fly revenue legs in a 777 with 300 pax aboard (some who are equally as wealthy as the owners of a share in a fractional I'm sure) you would think an FO should be able to fly a revenue leg in a biz jet.

I find the practice of CA flying revenue legs sort of (insert word of your choosing here).

TO EJA CAPT- FYI

CAL type rates all FO's, most majors do. The small jet airlines normally do not.

JETBLUE has some CA upgrades online within a year of date of hiring.

Which seat? Well naturally you will not fly 'left' seat in 50 hours at any airline but I think that is not the issue here. IOE Captains fly in the right seat and are still PIC during revenue legs. If you happen to have a repo leg (Part 91) and the CA happens to be a check airman, you may be able to fly 'left' seat if he approves it. And that could happen the day after you are a line pilot. Certainly this is not the 'norm' however.

Enough said on this topic for me.
 

EJA Capt

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COEX-FO said:

Nontheless, I still think that the policy is 'unique' to EJA and perhaps fractionals in general.

If the airlines...
I ...
I think...
If you...
and the CA happens to be...
you may be ...if he approves.
And that could happen...

Enough said on this topic for me.

OK, I'll use little words this time.

Imagine YOU own an airplane.
You have two flights. One empty and one with passengers.
You only have two pilots (Forget about PIC/SIC).

Which pilot do YOU want to fly the leg with passengers? The new guy, or the guy that has been there 3 years?

PS...
Airline passengers don't have a direct line to the CEO (You can't even get a CSR on the phone half the time.)
Ours do.
Those 300, B777 passengers don't own the airplane.
Ours do.
 

COEX-FO

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EJA Capt said:



OK, I'll use little words this time.

Which pilot do YOU want to fly the leg with passengers? The new guy, or the guy that has been there 3 years?
Likewise (little words)

I would think that the company I paid millions to would employ equally qualified pilots and that either one should/could be able to fly the plane to the standards I expect. It should not make any difference to the passenger, there are supposed to be two qualified pilots up there, not just one capable of flying the plane. After all, the experienced guy is still there, just happens to not be moving the controls.

Let's just end it there. I don't agree with the policy! We will just not see eye to eye on the subject. So be it!
 

ukcats

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Flying Pax

Just want to add my 2 cents. As I believe a previous poster said, FOs CAN fly pax legs. The stipulation is that both pilots must have 250 hours in type, and it is at the captains discretion. I can't speak for the other fleets, but in the plane I fly, generally the captain asks at the first of the tour, would you prefer to fly every other leg, or swap seats on the dead legs. Either way, the flying is usually divided out equally.

That said, there are some captains who prefer to fly all the pax legs, and that is their right. This has nothing to do with company policy, its the cap's call. The company has the utmost trust in their pilots. The FO has the right to call aborts, as the previous poster said, and, can actually scrub the mission if he doesn't feel comfortable with something.

Although this topic is getting a lot of discussion, it really isn't an issue because every one gets plenty of stick time, and every one can upgrade to captain within a couple months.

Hope this helps.
 

sewertube

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also..

Many of the clients or owners are in the fractional program so they can stay out of the airlines, and have some control over the flight. A lot of them only like to see the Captains flying, and if that is what they want to see then there is no problem in keeping them happy, and FO's get plenty of stick time regardless.
 

COEX-FO

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A lot of them only like to see the Captains flying, and if that is what they want to see then there is no problem
The customer is ALWAYS right, after all he is paying the bills.

Thanks for the insight
 

Stickshaker

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COEX-FO

COEX-FO
I'm an FO at EJA and it's not like what your thinking. First of all I'm flying as much as the Captain on most days and that's fine with me, I don't care if there is someone in the back or not on my leg.
I know that may seem different to you but it's not a big deal.
I'm also flying in the left seat, I bet that may seam strange for you as well. Did I mention that I'm making Captains pay as an FO as well? Also I worked HALF the days you did last month for twice as much money.

Now, if flying on the non pax. legs for the first 250 hours was a big deal for me then I would have bid Capt. months ago. I could have MADE Capt. my first month here.

As a furloughed 121 pilot I'm telling you I would never go back to the Airlines (including all the majors). This is a great job.
 

flydog

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Welcome to the age old seat swap debate

The corporate world is funny as you will find the biggest and baddest egos in aviation. I have worked with some Captains where the FOs where never allowed to fly the airplane.

At Coex guys with 700 hrs where hired and were flying pax legs from day one. At Exec Jet you can be hired with 10,000 hrs and be prohibited from flying pax legs

Thats funny because Exec Jet advertises that all their aircraft operate with TWO Captain qualified pilots. The differences in experience in some aicraft may be as little as 4-6 months of seniority. In some cases the Captain may have far less time and experience than a 10,000 hr new hire.

The bottom line is there is no way for an FO to learn the job unless he or she flies the aircraft during all conditions, IFR or VFR, pax or empty, "black hole" approaches or visuals. Captain IOE is no place for an individual to learn how to fly a jet. Sometimes there may not be an empty leg for days and couple that with days off its easy for an FO to forget everything they learned on that single landing 2 weeks ago.

If I feel comfortable in an airplane I would have a new FO fly every leg the first few days unless he or she scared the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** out of me then I would restrict it to empty until their proficiency increased to the point where it doesnt scare pax. With a proficient FO the flying is split every other leg.

If an FO cant fly the airplane competently with pax they dont belong in the airplane period
 

stingray

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A newly typed pilot being put in a new airframe, How well did you handle your current airplane the first times you flew it?
Most new FO's simply cannot operate the aircraft as smoothly as the captain, which 99.9% of the time has more hrs in a paticular airframe. (Typed or not this true at any company or airline.)
How many hrs in a new airframe does it take a pilot to start flying it smoothly?
You have 2 typed pilots who flys smoother the 1000hr in airframe pilot, or the 10hr in airframe pilot. usally its the 1000hr in type.
(Yes we all know this policy isn't possible in the airline industry, at least for most of them.)
But after someone spends millions of dollars on a plane with us they whant the smoothest ride possible. Can you blame them. This is one of the reasons this is a policy at eja not to have the FO's fly pax legs unless they have 250hrs in the plane. Most get the hrs in a few months. FO's here will probably be flying 40 to 50% of the legs before that. almost half the flights already.
If someone can't handle this,with left seat time after 50hrs, upgrade within a yr if they whant,being typed as an FO, they might be to much of a problem child anyways.
 
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