How common is the "Co-Captain" in the Corporate world?

[carl p]

How many of your flight departments employ Co-Capts vs. Co-Pilots? I would guess that companies flying international would hire more CCs. Has there been an article published regarding the value of hiring a Co-Capt over a Co-Pilot?

 

[TMMT]

We only hire Captains, or hire ones that are Captain "qualifiable". Both pilots are typed on the equipment, but the PIC is still the one listed on the DX log and who signs for the bird. Our pay is based on seniority and longevity not seat position.

 

[chignutsak]

"Co-captain" sounds like flight department marketing semantics aimed at soothing nervous new charter customers...

 

[semperfido]

Only captains where I fly. We don't hire people unless they have considerable experience. Why are you asking?

 

[BoilerUP]

Two captains where I work, hence the term "co-captain".

Per SOP, the PIC is whoever is the left-seat (flying) pilot.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

How many of your flight departments employ Co-Capts vs. Co-Pilots? I would guess that companies flying international would hire more CCs. Has there been an article published regarding the value of hiring a Co-Capt over a Co-Pilot?

Its a term to calm the fragile egos...lol.

Seems like if someone can pass a type ride at FlightSafety (got a pulse?) they are a "Captain" There just isn't many "co-pilots" in the corporate world. Now, it really does make sense to type everyone for various reasons, but in reality that has nothing to do with ones real qualifications.

I guess who cares what you are called....but all I have seen "Co-Captain" status do is confuse the over confident typed co-pilot into thinking he should be making more money...after all, he is a "Captain"...and he DOES fly left seat....with a babysitter (he doesn't see that part)..LOL.

Its easier and cleaner to break everyone down as PIC/SIC, regardless of what you want on your business card...just be sure to define the roles on each flight, hence many places employ only Captains yet some of these Captains are never PIC!

Corp pilots love titles...I have seen enough "Senior International Training Captains" in this business to last a lifetime.

 

[scarface]

Back when I was in the corporate game if you were hired as a co-pilot that may mean you rarely, if ever, flew. At my company I was a Sabre 40 captain and a Sabre 65 co-pilot; I never touched the controls of the 65, not even on empty legs.
There was a G-1 on airport who had a co-pilot that was never allowed to fly either, so it wasn't just us. Bottom line, if I was being hired as a corporate co-pilot I'd ask about their policy about co-pilots flying.

 

[ruhroa]

Gulfstream200:[ I have seen "Co-Captain" status do is confuse the over confident typed co-pilot into thinking he should be making more money...after all, he is a "Captain"...and he DOES fly left seat....with a babysitter (he doesn't see that part)..LOL.]................. I could not disagree more esp. on the larger corp. aircraft. 99.9% of the time a corp pilot on these aircraft have thousands of hours (paid their dues many times over) fly from Left seat and make the flight decisions with their "Co Captains". I believe that the biggest use of the term of "co Captain" is to retain highly qualified,experienced people in both seats. this costs money and for the non aviation types it is easier to explain two high salaries by using the term co captain than explaining why a co pilot should be so well paid......just my 2 cents.........

 

[taxi1wire]

Co Captains are very common in the corporate world for 1 reason: THEY VALUE EXPERIENCE-not just seniority.

We only hire Captains-real Captains with 6000 hours MINIMUM, in reality our flight department averages over 11,000 hours per pilot and many years international experience.

Saying you don't hire a co-pilot is one thing, actually hiring only Captains and paying them all Captains pay is another.

In the corporate world it is easy to confuse the person occupying the left seat as "Captain". In reality, experience, skill, professionalism and responsibility determine a true "Captain". You need to have earned all 4 to truly advance in the corporate world.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Gulfstream200:[ I have seen "Co-Captain" status do is confuse the over confident typed co-pilot into thinking he should be making more money...after all, he is a "Captain"...and he DOES fly left seat....with a babysitter (he doesn't see that part)..LOL.]................. I could not disagree more esp. on the larger corp. aircraft. 99.9% of the time a corp pilot on these aircraft have thousands of hours (paid their dues many times over) fly from Left seat and make the flight decisions with their "Co Captains". I believe that the biggest use of the term of "co Captain" is to retain highly qualified,experienced people in both seats. this costs money and for the non aviation types it is easier to explain two high salaries by using the term co captain than explaining why a co pilot should be so well paid......just my 2 cents.........

Oh I agree! Hence you have 2 qualified PIC Captains. Pay them as Captains. Pay them well.

The confusion arises when a co-pilot gets labeled a "Co-Captain" and gripes about why he only makes 95K-105K....after all, he's a "Gulfstream Captain" goddamit.

I just think its far easier to call a spade a spade..you are a F/O, copilot, whatever until you can sign for the airplane with another F/O.....long term occupation of the left seat by typed FO's isn't good for anyone.

I don't think this is a big deal in most smaller operations, but can be if you have a larger pilot group with salary differences amongst all the "Captains"

 

[NJAowner]

It is not just pilots ... About 2 decades ago most corportations had a President, Vice Prsident of Fiannce, Vice President of Operation, etc. Then there was "title inflation" ... Pres. could become CEO, a VP of some level was now "President", the VP of Finance became CFO so the Assistant VP of Finance could become VP of Finance, etc.

 

[hyper]

G200,

Going out on a limb here, but you gotta be the biggest Gulfstream fanboy I've ever seen!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It is not just pilots ... About 2 decades ago most corportations had a President, Vice Prsident of Fiannce, Vice President of Operation, etc. Then there was "title inflation" ... Pres. could become CEO, a VP of some level was now "President", the VP of Finance became CFO so the Assistant VP of Finance could become VP of Finance, etc.

Now thats funny....believe it or not all pilots at my last job were "Vice Presidents" according to the company. LOL!

Heck, you can call me an a$$hole (some have) just pay me and treat me well.

 

[Tgaug6300]

Overseas is where they really get wrapped around the axels about "Captain" and "Co-pilot". Never understood that.

 

[G4G5]

The owner was given the option to hire an FO when we started the operation and his answer was, " I am about to spend $30 million on an airplane and you are trying to save me $30K on a salary?" Needless to say the director hired two captains.

I once worked at a large Fortune 10 flt department where titles ran wild. When I walked in the door everyone had some sort of title, "asst training captain and asst safety capt on the XYZ fleet" was one of my personal favorites (actually listed on a business card". They hired all captains except for the last guy in the door.

I got myself in big trouble when down town sent me the "fill in the blanks" business card form. I figured I needed a title so I decided to call myself " the junior assistant executive chief of nothing, with everything to do"

The director got a phone call from down town asking him what he wanted to do because it would not fit on the card. Not one of my career highlights......

I can remember sitting down with my grandfather having a beer and we were talking about it, he gave me some classic advice that I use to this very day when someone tries to give me a title:
"I can't put tomato sauce on a title and feed it to the kids" since then I have heard another variation, "Unfortunately my landlord stopped taking titles last week, he only accepts cash"

A title is just another way to get you to do more work without paying you for it. Call me what you want just pay me.

 

[NJAowner]

It is not just a pay issue, it is also an ego, morale, self-worth issue for the employee.For many, to say at a neighborhood bar-b-que that you are "a Vice President" or "Assistant Vice President of Finance" sounds much better (and usually make the employee feel better in social settings) than bookkeeper.

 

[BoilerUP]

I got myself in big trouble when down town sent me the "fill in the blanks" business card form. I figured I needed a title so I decided to call myself " the junior assistant executive chief of nothing, with everything to do"

I LOL'd.

The director got a phone call from down town asking him what he wanted to do because it would not fit on the card. Not one of my career highlights......

No sense of humor there, eh?

Now that I think of it, "Executive Vice President of Business Aircraft Transportation" has a nice ring to it...:laugh:

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We actually had a guy who felt pride in that "Vice President" title....I once told him on a crew swap in Athens at 0400.... "Hey Mr. VP of Lav Dumping, here's a $20, go monitor the $hitter change"

another personal favorite..."Director of Training"...(calls FlightSafety twice a year)

Only pilots.

 

[Jetdriver69]

Everyone is a "Captain" or a fairly new hire about to be bumped up to "Captain", but no inexperienced guys. In our house, the "Trip Captain" (more titles for the ego police) runs the trip. But in my opinion, it is only extra work with absolutely no extra money. If the other guys get off arranging everything and staying glued to the phone, then more power to them. I couldn't give a rat's ass what they call me, where my name is on the trip sheet or the bulkhead display or what seat I start out the trip in, just pay me fairly.

 

[carl p]

Only captains where I fly. We don't hire people unless they have considerable experience. Why are you asking?

Just trying to learn as much as I can about this side of the biz. My current employer used 1(800) dial-a-pilot in the past, but we are trying to change that mentality. I can't imagine having (or being) a high level VIP in the back with a crew up front that has never flown together, and all trained with different procedures. That is the result of a non Pilot running the show here in the past. Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. Has there been an article published regarding the value of having Co-Capts or Capt qualified (and experienced) Pilots as opposed to Co-Pilots?

 

[semperfido]

We actually had a guy who felt pride in that "Vice President" title....I once told him on a crew swap in Athens at 0400.... "Hey Mr. VP of Lav Dumping, here's a $20, go monitor the $hitter change"

another personal favorite..."Director of Training"...(calls FlightSafety twice a year)

Only pilots.

My last gig, the VP manager pilot never got any closer than 100 feet of the aircraft. My newer gig, a maint tech does the same job. Go figure.

 

[sleepy]

We have Captains and Senior Captains. The difference is a Captain gets a 10% bonus and a Senior Captain gets a 30% bonus. It takes 8 years as a Captain to become a Senior Captain. You don't have to be a good pilot, smart or even alert; you just have to have a pulse and it happens automatically after 8 years. The Senior Captains got the rules changed so they would always be the trip Captain. The Trip Captain has to do all of the paperwork and gets blamed for everything that goes wrong during a trip.

The rule quietly disappeared after a few months........

 

[carl p]

We have Captains and Senior Captains. The difference is a Captain gets a 10% bonus and a Senior Captain gets a 30% bonus. It takes 8 years as a Captain to become a Senior Captain. You don't have to be a good pilot, smart or even alert; you just have to have a pulse and it happens automatically after 8 years. The Senior Captains got the rules changed so they would always be the trip Captain. The Trip Captain has to do all of the paperwork and gets blamed for everything that goes wrong during a trip.

The rule quietly disappeared after a few months........

What a surprise, lol.

 

[Quimby]

My last gig, the VP manager pilot never got any closer than 100 feet of the aircraft. My newer gig, a maint tech does the same job. Go figure.

That's plenty close for some pilots. Some just belong in an office from 9-4, talking about how good they are.

 

[ultrarunner]

G200 nailed it. It's all about ego.

Co-captain, Captain, Senior Captain, Senior Co-Captain, International Captain, International Co-Captain....blah blah blah...

Oh and my favorite as G200 pointed out: "Senior International Training Captian". Who'd have thought I'd get a new title if I can successfully teach someone the finer points of a Toronto turn, vs. a Teterboro turn. Wahooo!!!!

haha....gotta love it.

The airlines go it right...two folks show up and you got a Captain and a First Officer.

But then those two folks aren't worried about getting their peckers stroked when they come into the office!

All all you TEB crews, chime in here with your own title variations....!!!

 

[jet2work]

I agree that it is mostly about ego, but........

In a large Fortune 500 company, your salary and benefits are often determined by someone with absolutely no aviation experience at all. Out of 30,000 employees, there may be 6 pilots. This presents difficulty for an HR apparatus trying to figure out what is appropriate compensation. They (being HR) consult with consultants and order surveys that try to neatly summarize job tiltles and responsibilities.

Depending on how savvy your HR folks are, you could have them attempting to pay you the Regional Jet FO pay if your title is Co-Pilot . After all, they are a Co-Pilot on a turbojet powered aircraft (same job description as you). Have you ever seen first year FO pay even at a major (not that they have hired anyone in a long time). Pretty poor.

A proactive Flight Department manager will school HR a little and maybe show them a Stanton Salary Survey or Conklin DeDecker report. I have heard from many a Dept. Manager that surveys from Pro Pilot or NBAA hold no sway with HR, because it is pilots reporting salaries and not HR.

Unfortunately, when your boss goes to HR and tells them that they need to re-evaluate compensation, they will say. Has anyone quit lately? If the answer is no, then in HR's eyes there is not a problem and no need to do additional work in that area. I know it doesn't sound very progressive, but imagine the FAA promulgating a new rule for an issue that has never caused an accident. How seriously would you take it?

Is it cost effective to recruit, train, relocate a new employee? Of course not. In this market, do any of us have the leverage to demand more money or threaten to leave? Very few of us.

Hopefully anyone who calls him or herself a "Captain" actually posseses the skills to dutifully carry out that role without regard to which seat they are occupying and the qualifications of the person sitting next to them. Hopefully the people in your HR department are just as competent at their jobs. Lets make both of our lives easier by assigning a title that allows them to accurately detemine fair comensation for us.

That being said, if anyone out there is willing to pay $200K a year for a weak FO, I am available immediately.

 

[2000Easyguy]

Overseas is where they really get wrapped around the axels about "Captain" and "Co-pilot". Never understood that.

True. In various countries I've heard the terms "Commander, Commandante (Spain), Skipper, and Conductor of flight". With that last title, I wanted to hang my head out the cabin door, blow a whistle, and yell "All aboooard!"

Now, with the next round of business cards, I'm going to fill in the title "Assistant to the Regional Flight director". A play on Dwight Shrewt from "The Office".

I'm with the rest of you, call me what you want, but pay me a fair salary!:beer:

 

[NCherches]

"Co-captain" sounds like flight department marketing semantics aimed at soothing nervous new charter customers...

Or for a Copilot to feel like he is cool.... ''ok you can wear four stripes since you are typed in the airplane''

 

[semperfido]

All all you TEB crews, chime in here with your own title variations....!!!

Senior Chief Pilot comes to mind.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Senior Chief Pilot comes to mind.

Thats a good one....

Senior Chief International Training Gulfstream Captain.

Now thats what I need.