How bad is logging duel PIC

[ToiletDuck]

hmmm ok so it would be best that I split it PIC and PIC when recieveing instruction.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

Act as PIC is the big one there. You are talking about logging PIC which can be totally different than ACTING PIC. I know its splitting Regulatory hairs but it is perfectly legal and acceptable, especially when building time towards 8710 requirements.

If you ever find yourself in an interview where someone is laughing at how you log PIC time even though it is legal, politely excuse yourself because you dont want to fly for an outfit like that anyway.

You dont have to split Dual PIC and PIC, just log it as PIC and dual recieved when applicable. And yes you can log PIC while IMC/under the hood, while with an instructor, you are rated for the category and class (ASEL) and are the sole manipulator. You can even log PIC while you are recieving dual to get your highperformance or complex rating as long as you are RATED for the airplane you are flying.

 

[Dangerkitty]

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument ratting on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

There is no such thing as logging "Dual PIC" Where you got that is beyond me.

Secondly, I was an instructor for quite sometime. Unless the rules have been radically changed in this respect (and from what I can see they haven't) you can log PIC if you are being given instrument instruction. Doesn't matter if you are under the hood or in the soup.

Why this concept is lost on you is kinda strange, but hey it's your money and your logbook.

 

[Dangerkitty]

hmmm ok so it would be best that I split it PIC and PIC when recieveing instruction.

Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.

That's correct. I just want to add that when applying for a job be sure to break down the flying the way the company wants it. Sometimes the forms they use apply to airline flying and not the flying we did early on in our training. If the company doesn't allow for dual/PIC (UAL used to be that way) then just fill out the form the way they want. For example....most 121 carriers could care less about how much time you have in a Piper vs a Cessna even though some application forms asks for time in type. It's all SEL or piston twin to them. If, for some reason, they care then it's a good idea to have the numbers ready so you don't have to spend hours figuring it out.

 

[Tram]

Ok.. so while getting your instrument ticket - you can't log PIC (if appropriately rated) and Dual recieved?

I think that's the way I did it...

 

[ManChild]

No you CAN log PIC and Dual while getting your instrument ticket.

 

[ToiletDuck]

Well by looking at the FAR's and Talking to several other instructors I'm going to stick with you can't log it PIC if you don't have your instrument and are in IFR conditions. And when I say Dual PIC i know there isn't a Dual spot on my book I'm talking about Dual=two PIC's logging. Instruction givin and instruction recieved so long as I am sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[LarryinTN]

Well by looking at the FAR's and Talking to several other instructors I'm going to stick with you can't log it PIC if you don't have your instrument and are in IFR conditions.

You most certainly can log it as PIC. 61.51(e)(i).

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated

 

[Tram]

Well, if you don't have an instrument ticket, no you can't log actual instrument flying - as your not rated for it..

 

[LarryinTN]

Well, if you don't have an instrument ticket, no you can't log actual instrument flying - as your not rated for it..

The regulation says "of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated". Instrument conditions are not an aircraft.


This is from an article on the Las Vegas FSDO's site:

Thus a non-instrument rated pilot taking instrument flight instruction, if rated in the aircraft, may log PIC based on the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule. Since there is nothing in the rules that addresses meteorological conditions, the pilot may log PIC while in the clouds. This is supported by FAA chief counsel opinions [Federal Regulations Explained-Jeppesen].

Here's the whole article: http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm


Here is a collection of FAA chief counsel opinions on the subject of logging PIC time. http://williams.best.vwh.net/ftp/avsig/pic.txt

You know, none of this is new. The same questions were going around over twenty years ago when I was learning to fly. It's amazing that we have to continually re-invent the wheel on this. Why aren't CFI's passing down these information to their students so that when they become CFI's they aren't spreading around these false interpretations?

 

[Tram]

Ah, true.. that makes sense..

 

[fokkers&beer]

You can log PIC throughout your instrument, commercial, and CFI ratings, everyone is correct on that. The only catch I see is that when you start filling out airline apps, like it was brought out previously, your total time collumn will not be the sum of your dual, sic, and pic collumns. This is a pretty quick check for any logged errors in ones logbook. Its always nice to add your collumns and see they all equal your TT collumn. (This check is from your SEL, SES, MEL collumns as well as your PIC, SIC, and Dual collumns.) Like I said this double check is a nice feature.
The other thing that works out well is when you start filling out apps and they have one of those grid boxes, if you have logged your time and it adds up, the grid adds up perfectly.
The man who told me to add my time like this was very wise, and it has helped. He explained it to me by saying its only 50 or maybe 60 hours total throughout all your ratings, and it will help later. I have thanked him many times. He also said his airline would question why your collumns did'nt add up. I have never seen this, but I guess it could happen. My logbooks all add up.
I know some people vehemently disagree with this, but like I said, it helps finding errors, its a drop in the bucket for total time, and this is good enough for me.

 

[Tram]

Yeh, I just did the SE + ME = TT and am like .4 off.. I guess I will dig through the log book and find out where the error was made...

 

[Da Vinci]

one of my instrument instructors let me log actual IMC as PIC, then i had another that refused. i'm reading this getting pissed off b/c i lost quite a bit of IMC time as PIC. if i didn't have so many hours after my instrument rating, i'd pencil in all that imc pic time!!!!!!!!!!!!!! too much white-out!! ....i need imc pic time and if some of you guys are right...i was ROBBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!