How bad is logging duel PIC

[ToiletDuck]

You are incorrect. You CAN log PIC if you are under the hood and not instrument rated if you have your Private. You can log PIC if you are in the clouds and receiving instrument training and don't have your IFR ticket. Having your instrument ticket has nothing to do with it.

By the way where do you come up with "breaKing any laws?"

I guess that the same person that gave you the above incorrect information also was the one "freaking out" with you today watching a perfectly normal C-5 takeoff. Am I correct?

First off on the C-5 bit you are correct. The person that gave me that idea called and told me to freak out over what i saw

Secondly when reading the FAR's I was under the impression that if you are doing instrument training and are not instrument qualified that you weren't able to log it PIC but that once you do have your instrument you could.

And why are you so rude? I'd rather you say nothing at all.

 

[Dangerkitty]

First off on the C-5 bit you are correct. The person that gave me that idea called and told me to freak out over what i saw

Secondly when reading the FAR's I was under the impression that if you are doing instrument training and are not instrument qualified that you weren't able to log it PIC but that once you do have your instrument you could.

And why are you so rude? I'd rather you say nothing at all.

First off I am not being rude. Can you show me where in my previous statement that I am being rude to you?

However it is a little annoying for you to come on here and state something as a "fact" and then comeback and state that you were "under the impression." If you have your Private License and are conducting Instrument training with an instructor you CAN log PIC even if you are under the hood or in the clouds. You are not breaking any laws.

As for the C-5 Comment you might wanna re-read the thread that you started. If you do I think you will find out that people are basically making fun of your comments about the C-5 you were freaking out about.

 

[casper1nine]

I've looked through all my logbooks from the last 25 years and no where do I find a column called "Dual PIC Instruction Received/Given." Aren't columns supposed to equal Total? IE. SEL+MEL+HLC=TT Dual+PIC+SIC=TT.

Case in point. I had an instrument instructor tell me to log my instrument instruction as PIC and DUAL. I had him for about 20 hours. When I changed instructors he refused to do that...it was all logged as Dual. Fast forward a few years and during an interview and logbook review, after the guy stopped laughing at the way my time was logged, he politely asked me to leave the room.

I corrected my logbook after that and have never been questioned about it since.

2000Flyer

my dual received+pic+sic don't = my TT. i received plenty of dual in situations where i was the pic, so the sum of the above > than my TT. perfectly legal to log PIC when appropriate and sometimes, that is while you are receiving dual instruction. a few examples, if you are receiving dual towards a high performance or complex endorsement, or if you have a private MEL and are doing your initial instrument rating in a twin, you need to log X amount of dual IFR x-c time. all of these are situations where you can be the PIC and still be receiving instruction from a CFI who is acting as PIC. receiving the dual required for an instrument rating is no exception. i seriously doubt that for most pilots the equation of dual+PIC+SIC=TT. the implication is that at no point did you ever receive dual instruction while you were qualified to be PIC.

toilet duck, just know where your time comes from. if ever "questioned" about it, just be able to explain why you logged what you did. there won't be a problem.

-casper1nine

 

[ToiletDuck]

you CAN log PIC even if you are under the hood or in the clouds. You are not breaking any laws.

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

 

[KeroseneDream]

Logging Time towards certificates and ratings.

First off, there is no such thing as "Dual PIC". There is "PIC" and "Dual Received" aka "Instruction Received".

There is a difference between how time is logged under part 61 and what would logically be logged as aircraft experience towards a job interview.

The regs were changed a while back, mid-90's I believe , describing when PIC can be logged.

Part 61 applies to logging time towards certificates & ratings.

PIC is logged during solo flights when the person is not rated (pre-private pilot checkride)

PIC is logged anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft at which you are rated cat, class, type if req'd. (This applies to receiving instruction. All instruction received after a rating for the cat & class is received can be logged as PIC by both CFI and student.

PIC is logged by a flight instructor while giving instruction

ex. For and instrument training flight:
Student logs PIC and Dual Received
CFI logs PIC and Dual Given

It is important to log it this way so that you are building the necessary PIC and XC PIC time towards your instrument and commercial ratings.

Now later on your life you will be preparing for a job interview. Many companies today specify exactly how they want your experience broken down for their purposes. FedEx for example defines PIC as only time when you "signed" for the a/c, not receiving instruction, or logging PIC on empty legs, i.e. The Captain is the Captain. But this is all dependant on the specific company.


Good Luck

 

[ToiletDuck]

hmmm ok so it would be best that I split it PIC and PIC when recieveing instruction.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

Act as PIC is the big one there. You are talking about logging PIC which can be totally different than ACTING PIC. I know its splitting Regulatory hairs but it is perfectly legal and acceptable, especially when building time towards 8710 requirements.

If you ever find yourself in an interview where someone is laughing at how you log PIC time even though it is legal, politely excuse yourself because you dont want to fly for an outfit like that anyway.

You dont have to split Dual PIC and PIC, just log it as PIC and dual recieved when applicable. And yes you can log PIC while IMC/under the hood, while with an instructor, you are rated for the category and class (ASEL) and are the sole manipulator. You can even log PIC while you are recieving dual to get your highperformance or complex rating as long as you are RATED for the airplane you are flying.

 

[Dangerkitty]

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument ratting on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

There is no such thing as logging "Dual PIC" Where you got that is beyond me.

Secondly, I was an instructor for quite sometime. Unless the rules have been radically changed in this respect (and from what I can see they haven't) you can log PIC if you are being given instrument instruction. Doesn't matter if you are under the hood or in the soup.

Why this concept is lost on you is kinda strange, but hey it's your money and your logbook.

 

[Dangerkitty]

hmmm ok so it would be best that I split it PIC and PIC when recieveing instruction.

Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.

That's correct. I just want to add that when applying for a job be sure to break down the flying the way the company wants it. Sometimes the forms they use apply to airline flying and not the flying we did early on in our training. If the company doesn't allow for dual/PIC (UAL used to be that way) then just fill out the form the way they want. For example....most 121 carriers could care less about how much time you have in a Piper vs a Cessna even though some application forms asks for time in type. It's all SEL or piston twin to them. If, for some reason, they care then it's a good idea to have the numbers ready so you don't have to spend hours figuring it out.