How bad is logging duel PIC

[ToiletDuck]

My instructor encourages me to log dual PIC instruction recieved when we go flying (so long as I am rated to fly that aircraft). I asked him about it and he said he logs it Dual PIC instruction given and I log it Dual PIC instruction recieved. After looking through the FAR's I have found this is legal however I have been told by some other flight instructors that they don't like it. Should I stop logging it like this? I don't want to walk into an interview and be shown the door because they felt I was padding my logbook.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

If you're receivng instruction but are appropriately rated in the aircraft, you are legal to "log" PIC. You are the sole manipulator of the controls in this case. The instructor, although not flying the plane is the pilot in command of the flight and thus is legal in logging PIC as well. This because the CFI is "acting" as pilot in command.

If the two of you are just out for a joyride or $100 hamburger and you're the one manipulating the controls but not receiving instruction, then log as PIC but not dual received. If the CFI is logging it as dual given but he's not getting paid for it or doing any instruction, that's padding the logbook.

Mr. I.

 

[viper548]

I logged it as PIC and it wasn't questioned during my airline interview. On some applications, they want you to break down PIC by part 1 and part 61 definitions.

 

[2000flyer]

I've looked through all my logbooks from the last 25 years and no where do I find a column called "Dual PIC Instruction Received/Given." Aren't columns supposed to equal Total? IE. SEL+MEL+HLC=TT Dual+PIC+SIC=TT.

Case in point. I had an instrument instructor tell me to log my instrument instruction as PIC and DUAL. I had him for about 20 hours. When I changed instructors he refused to do that...it was all logged as Dual. Fast forward a few years and during an interview and logbook review, after the guy stopped laughing at the way my time was logged, he politely asked me to leave the room.

I corrected my logbook after that and have never been questioned about it since.

2000Flyer

 

[ToiletDuck]

well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated. Logging dual PIC is different. When I get into an aircraft doing VFR maneuvers and I'm rated for that aircraft then I'm not breaking any laws. I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.

 

[minitour]

well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated...

...I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.

Really? So you're not still sole manipulator for an aircraft which you're appropriately rated when getting instruction for your instrument rating under a hood? or in actual?

If you got a PPASEL...then did your instrument in a 172 or Cherokee or Warrior or whatever...you could still LOG it as PIC. You are sole manipulator for an aircraft for which you're rated.

-mini

 

[ToiletDuck]

Yes I know that. His post led me to believe that he was getting his instrument rating. He said it was "his instructor" so I thought he was being tought.

 

[2000flyer]

Yes I know that. His post led me to believe that he was getting his instrument rating. He said it was "his instructor" so I thought he was being tought.

You understood exactly what I said. My instructor had the same "understanding" as minitour. I had a PPL, therefore I was PIC of the aircraft even though I was getting dual for an instrument ticket. Sounds logical to me, but in the end the columns don't add up. At the time of my interview years ago, the first thing the interviewer did was add A, B, and C. When they were 20 hours off he began digging.

I'm not a CFI so help me understand this; when giving instruction, does the CFI log it as PIC? This begs to ask, can two onboard log PIC on the same flight when both are appropriately rated? In corporate life, PIC's don't "sign for the flight" as do our 121 counterparts. If both are PIC qualified and one leaves the flightdeck to use the lav and the other takes control, is he/she only to log those few minutes as PIC, log the entire trip as PIC or SIC? Sole manipulator...what about the autopilot?

On an ealier thread on flightinfo, someone said that as a relief pilot with their airline, they could log the entire flight as SIC, even though they were not on the flightdeck the entire flight, but that they were still a required crewmember.

Personally, I don't see the hangup with logging PIC on an aircraft your rated while getting dual instruction. I realize there are PIC times to meet for commercial and ATP certificates but it would seem logical to me that you could still log it. However, the regs and logic don't always agree.

I know some of the examples I've given seem ridiculous but I'm just trying to give examples to a broader thought process to the subject.

2000Flyer

 

[Dangerkitty]

well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated. Logging dual PIC is different. When I get into an aircraft doing VFR maneuvers and I'm rated for that aircraft then I'm not breaking any laws. I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.

You are incorrect. You CAN log PIC if you are under the hood and not instrument rated if you have your Private. You can log PIC if you are in the clouds and receiving instrument training and don't have your IFR ticket. Having your instrument ticket has nothing to do with it.

By the way where do you come up with "breaKing any laws?"

I guess that the same person that gave you the above incorrect information also was the one "freaking out" with you today watching a perfectly normal C-5 takeoff. Am I correct?

 

[minitour]

Sounds logical to me, but in the end the columns don't add up. At the time of my interview years ago, the first thing the interviewer did was add A, B, and C.

Not sure why they would necessarily add up.

I'm not a CFI so help me understand this; when giving instruction, does the CFI log it as PIC?

Yes - 61.51(e)(3)

This begs to ask, can two onboard log PIC on the same flight when both are appropriately rated?

In some cases yes. CFI is acting as an authorized instructor (can log PIC). You are rated and under the hood. Therefore you can log pic (sole manipulator). Also, safety pilot situations can both be loggable PIC. Stuff like that.

In corporate life, PIC's don't "sign for the flight" as do our 121 counterparts. If both are PIC qualified and one leaves the flightdeck to use the lav and the other takes control, is he/she only to log those few minutes as PIC, log the entire trip as PIC or SIC? Sole manipulator...what about the autopilot?

I would imagine (and midlifeflyer is better at this than I) this gets into "Part 1 PIC" vs. "Part 61 PIC". Part 1 is - who is responsible if something gets FUBAR. If the answer to that question was "me", then you are acting as PIC. Part 61 is - 61.51(e)...do you meet those requirements? If so, you can log PIC.

On an ealier thread on flightinfo, someone said that as a relief pilot with their airline, they could log the entire flight as SIC, even though they were not on the flightdeck the entire flight, but that they were still a required crewmember.

That's interesting...don't know, but my guess would be...no. 61.51(f) the person... (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or...

Personally, I don't see the hangup with logging PIC on an aircraft your rated while getting dual instruction. I realize there are PIC times to meet for commercial and ATP certificates but it would seem logical to me that you could still log it. However, the regs and logic don't always agree.

I know some of the examples I've given seem ridiculous but I'm just trying to give examples to a broader thought process to the subject.

2000Flyer

I don't see the hangup either. It's perfectly legal. If someone on an interview board doesn't belive in logging time per the regulations, do you really want to work for them anyway? What other regulations are they not following? Afterall, the "logging flight time" reg is "trivial", right? Just like O2 and 91.117...

Now, I'm not saying that just because someone disagrees with how you logged PIC time means they knowingly and willingly bust regs, but to me it's a red flag. JMHO.

-mini