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How bad is logging duel PIC

ToiletDuck

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My instructor encourages me to log dual PIC instruction recieved when we go flying (so long as I am rated to fly that aircraft). I asked him about it and he said he logs it Dual PIC instruction given and I log it Dual PIC instruction recieved. After looking through the FAR's I have found this is legal however I have been told by some other flight instructors that they don't like it. Should I stop logging it like this? I don't want to walk into an interview and be shown the door because they felt I was padding my logbook.
 

Mr. Irrelevant

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If you're receivng instruction but are appropriately rated in the aircraft, you are legal to "log" PIC. You are the sole manipulator of the controls in this case. The instructor, although not flying the plane is the pilot in command of the flight and thus is legal in logging PIC as well. This because the CFI is "acting" as pilot in command.

If the two of you are just out for a joyride or $100 hamburger and you're the one manipulating the controls but not receiving instruction, then log as PIC but not dual received. If the CFI is logging it as dual given but he's not getting paid for it or doing any instruction, that's padding the logbook.

Mr. I.
 

viper548

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I logged it as PIC and it wasn't questioned during my airline interview. On some applications, they want you to break down PIC by part 1 and part 61 definitions.
 

2000flyer

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I've looked through all my logbooks from the last 25 years and no where do I find a column called "Dual PIC Instruction Received/Given." Aren't columns supposed to equal Total? IE. SEL+MEL+HLC=TT Dual+PIC+SIC=TT.

Case in point. I had an instrument instructor tell me to log my instrument instruction as PIC and DUAL. I had him for about 20 hours. When I changed instructors he refused to do that...it was all logged as Dual. Fast forward a few years and during an interview and logbook review, after the guy stopped laughing at the way my time was logged, he politely asked me to leave the room.

I corrected my logbook after that and have never been questioned about it since.

2000Flyer
 

ToiletDuck

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well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated. Logging dual PIC is different. When I get into an aircraft doing VFR maneuvers and I'm rated for that aircraft then I'm not breaking any laws. I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.
 

minitour

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ToiletDuck said:
well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated...

...I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.

Really? So you're not still sole manipulator for an aircraft which you're appropriately rated when getting instruction for your instrument rating under a hood? or in actual?

If you got a PPASEL...then did your instrument in a 172 or Cherokee or Warrior or whatever...you could still LOG it as PIC. You are sole manipulator for an aircraft for which you're rated.

-mini
 

2000flyer

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ToiletDuck said:
Yes I know that. His post led me to believe that he was getting his instrument rating. He said it was "his instructor" so I thought he was being tought.

You understood exactly what I said. My instructor had the same "understanding" as minitour. I had a PPL, therefore I was PIC of the aircraft even though I was getting dual for an instrument ticket. Sounds logical to me, but in the end the columns don't add up. At the time of my interview years ago, the first thing the interviewer did was add A, B, and C. When they were 20 hours off he began digging.

I'm not a CFI so help me understand this; when giving instruction, does the CFI log it as PIC? This begs to ask, can two onboard log PIC on the same flight when both are appropriately rated? In corporate life, PIC's don't "sign for the flight" as do our 121 counterparts. If both are PIC qualified and one leaves the flightdeck to use the lav and the other takes control, is he/she only to log those few minutes as PIC, log the entire trip as PIC or SIC? Sole manipulator...what about the autopilot?

On an ealier thread on flightinfo, someone said that as a relief pilot with their airline, they could log the entire flight as SIC, even though they were not on the flightdeck the entire flight, but that they were still a required crewmember.

Personally, I don't see the hangup with logging PIC on an aircraft your rated while getting dual instruction. I realize there are PIC times to meet for commercial and ATP certificates but it would seem logical to me that you could still log it. However, the regs and logic don't always agree.

I know some of the examples I've given seem ridiculous but I'm just trying to give examples to a broader thought process to the subject.

2000Flyer
 

Dangerkitty

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ToiletDuck said:
well you couldn't log the instrument as PIC because you were A) under the hood and B) not instrument rated. Logging dual PIC is different. When I get into an aircraft doing VFR maneuvers and I'm rated for that aircraft then I'm not breaking any laws. I'm the sole-manipulator of the aircraft.

You are incorrect. You CAN log PIC if you are under the hood and not instrument rated if you have your Private. You can log PIC if you are in the clouds and receiving instrument training and don't have your IFR ticket. Having your instrument ticket has nothing to do with it.

By the way where do you come up with "breaKing any laws?"

I guess that the same person that gave you the above incorrect information also was the one "freaking out" with you today watching a perfectly normal C-5 takeoff. Am I correct?
 

minitour

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2000flyer said:
Sounds logical to me, but in the end the columns don't add up. At the time of my interview years ago, the first thing the interviewer did was add A, B, and C.
Not sure why they would necessarily add up.

I'm not a CFI so help me understand this; when giving instruction, does the CFI log it as PIC?
Yes - 61.51(e)(3)

This begs to ask, can two onboard log PIC on the same flight when both are appropriately rated?
In some cases yes. CFI is acting as an authorized instructor (can log PIC). You are rated and under the hood. Therefore you can log pic (sole manipulator). Also, safety pilot situations can both be loggable PIC. Stuff like that.

In corporate life, PIC's don't "sign for the flight" as do our 121 counterparts. If both are PIC qualified and one leaves the flightdeck to use the lav and the other takes control, is he/she only to log those few minutes as PIC, log the entire trip as PIC or SIC? Sole manipulator...what about the autopilot?
I would imagine (and midlifeflyer is better at this than I) this gets into "Part 1 PIC" vs. "Part 61 PIC". Part 1 is - who is responsible if something gets FUBAR. If the answer to that question was "me", then you are acting as PIC. Part 61 is - 61.51(e)...do you meet those requirements? If so, you can log PIC.

On an ealier thread on flightinfo, someone said that as a relief pilot with their airline, they could log the entire flight as SIC, even though they were not on the flightdeck the entire flight, but that they were still a required crewmember.
That's interesting...don't know, but my guess would be...no. 61.51(f) the person... (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or...

Personally, I don't see the hangup with logging PIC on an aircraft your rated while getting dual instruction. I realize there are PIC times to meet for commercial and ATP certificates but it would seem logical to me that you could still log it. However, the regs and logic don't always agree.

I know some of the examples I've given seem ridiculous but I'm just trying to give examples to a broader thought process to the subject.

2000Flyer

I don't see the hangup either. It's perfectly legal. If someone on an interview board doesn't belive in logging time per the regulations, do you really want to work for them anyway? What other regulations are they not following? Afterall, the "logging flight time" reg is "trivial", right? Just like O2 and 91.117...

Now, I'm not saying that just because someone disagrees with how you logged PIC time means they knowingly and willingly bust regs, but to me it's a red flag. JMHO.

-mini
 

ToiletDuck

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Dangerkitty said:
You are incorrect. You CAN log PIC if you are under the hood and not instrument rated if you have your Private. You can log PIC if you are in the clouds and receiving instrument training and don't have your IFR ticket. Having your instrument ticket has nothing to do with it.

By the way where do you come up with "breaKing any laws?"

I guess that the same person that gave you the above incorrect information also was the one "freaking out" with you today watching a perfectly normal C-5 takeoff. Am I correct?

First off on the C-5 bit you are correct. The person that gave me that idea called and told me to freak out over what i saw :rolleyes:

Secondly when reading the FAR's I was under the impression that if you are doing instrument training and are not instrument qualified that you weren't able to log it PIC but that once you do have your instrument you could.

And why are you so rude? I'd rather you say nothing at all.
 

Dangerkitty

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ToiletDuck said:
First off on the C-5 bit you are correct. The person that gave me that idea called and told me to freak out over what i saw :rolleyes:

Secondly when reading the FAR's I was under the impression that if you are doing instrument training and are not instrument qualified that you weren't able to log it PIC but that once you do have your instrument you could.

And why are you so rude? I'd rather you say nothing at all.

First off I am not being rude. Can you show me where in my previous statement that I am being rude to you?

However it is a little annoying for you to come on here and state something as a "fact" and then comeback and state that you were "under the impression." If you have your Private License and are conducting Instrument training with an instructor you CAN log PIC even if you are under the hood or in the clouds. You are not breaking any laws.

As for the C-5 Comment you might wanna re-read the thread that you started. If you do I think you will find out that people are basically making fun of your comments about the C-5 you were freaking out about.
 

casper1nine

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2000flyer said:
I've looked through all my logbooks from the last 25 years and no where do I find a column called "Dual PIC Instruction Received/Given." Aren't columns supposed to equal Total? IE. SEL+MEL+HLC=TT Dual+PIC+SIC=TT.

Case in point. I had an instrument instructor tell me to log my instrument instruction as PIC and DUAL. I had him for about 20 hours. When I changed instructors he refused to do that...it was all logged as Dual. Fast forward a few years and during an interview and logbook review, after the guy stopped laughing at the way my time was logged, he politely asked me to leave the room.

I corrected my logbook after that and have never been questioned about it since.

2000Flyer

my dual received+pic+sic don't = my TT. i received plenty of dual in situations where i was the pic, so the sum of the above > than my TT. perfectly legal to log PIC when appropriate and sometimes, that is while you are receiving dual instruction. a few examples, if you are receiving dual towards a high performance or complex endorsement, or if you have a private MEL and are doing your initial instrument rating in a twin, you need to log X amount of dual IFR x-c time. all of these are situations where you can be the PIC and still be receiving instruction from a CFI who is acting as PIC. receiving the dual required for an instrument rating is no exception. i seriously doubt that for most pilots the equation of dual+PIC+SIC=TT. the implication is that at no point did you ever receive dual instruction while you were qualified to be PIC.

toilet duck, just know where your time comes from. if ever "questioned" about it, just be able to explain why you logged what you did. there won't be a problem.

-casper1nine
 

ToiletDuck

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Dangerkitty said:
you CAN log PIC even if you are under the hood or in the clouds. You are not breaking any laws.

FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck
 

KeroseneDream

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Logging Time towards certificates and ratings.

First off, there is no such thing as "Dual PIC". There is "PIC" and "Dual Received" aka "Instruction Received".

There is a difference between how time is logged under part 61 and what would logically be logged as aircraft experience towards a job interview.

The regs were changed a while back, mid-90's I believe , describing when PIC can be logged.

Part 61 applies to logging time towards certificates & ratings.

PIC is logged during solo flights when the person is not rated (pre-private pilot checkride)

PIC is logged anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft at which you are rated cat, class, type if req'd. (This applies to receiving instruction. All instruction received after a rating for the cat & class is received can be logged as PIC by both CFI and student.

PIC is logged by a flight instructor while giving instruction

ex. For and instrument training flight:
Student logs PIC and Dual Received
CFI logs PIC and Dual Given

It is important to log it this way so that you are building the necessary PIC and XC PIC time towards your instrument and commercial ratings.

Now later on your life you will be preparing for a job interview. Many companies today specify exactly how they want your experience broken down for their purposes. FedEx for example defines PIC as only time when you "signed" for the a/c, not receiving instruction, or logging PIC on empty legs, i.e. The Captain is the Captain. But this is all dependant on the specific company.


Good Luck
 

DC8 Flyer

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ToiletDuck said:
FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

Act as PIC is the big one there. You are talking about logging PIC which can be totally different than ACTING PIC. I know its splitting Regulatory hairs but it is perfectly legal and acceptable, especially when building time towards 8710 requirements.

If you ever find yourself in an interview where someone is laughing at how you log PIC time even though it is legal, politely excuse yourself because you dont want to fly for an outfit like that anyway.

You dont have to split Dual PIC and PIC, just log it as PIC and dual recieved when applicable. And yes you can log PIC while IMC/under the hood, while with an instructor, you are rated for the category and class (ASEL) and are the sole manipulator. You can even log PIC while you are recieving dual to get your highperformance or complex rating as long as you are RATED for the airplane you are flying.
 
Last edited:

Dangerkitty

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ToiletDuck said:
FAR 61.3(e)

Instrument rating: No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument ratting on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown.

Anyway the questions was based on if logging dual PIC is a bad practice for the logbooks. Next time read the topic before you jump in. Keep you from trying to Hijack a thread.

Thanks
Duck

There is no such thing as logging "Dual PIC" Where you got that is beyond me.

Secondly, I was an instructor for quite sometime. Unless the rules have been radically changed in this respect (and from what I can see they haven't) you can log PIC if you are being given instrument instruction. Doesn't matter if you are under the hood or in the soup.

Why this concept is lost on you is kinda strange, but hey it's your money and your logbook.
 

Dangerkitty

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ToiletDuck said:
hmmm ok so it would be best that I split it PIC and PIC when recieveing instruction.

Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.
 

WhiteCloud

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Dangerkitty said:
Dude, why are you making this so hard on yourself? You will log PIC and Dual received at the same time.

It is 100% legal.
That's correct. I just want to add that when applying for a job be sure to break down the flying the way the company wants it. Sometimes the forms they use apply to airline flying and not the flying we did early on in our training. If the company doesn't allow for dual/PIC (UAL used to be that way) then just fill out the form the way they want. For example....most 121 carriers could care less about how much time you have in a Piper vs a Cessna even though some application forms asks for time in type. It's all SEL or piston twin to them. If, for some reason, they care then it's a good idea to have the numbers ready so you don't have to spend hours figuring it out.
 
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