How bad is logging duel PIC

[Tram]

Ok.. so while getting your instrument ticket - you can't log PIC (if appropriately rated) and Dual recieved?

I think that's the way I did it...

 

[ManChild]

No you CAN log PIC and Dual while getting your instrument ticket.

 

[ToiletDuck]

Well by looking at the FAR's and Talking to several other instructors I'm going to stick with you can't log it PIC if you don't have your instrument and are in IFR conditions. And when I say Dual PIC i know there isn't a Dual spot on my book I'm talking about Dual=two PIC's logging. Instruction givin and instruction recieved so long as I am sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[LarryinTN]

Well by looking at the FAR's and Talking to several other instructors I'm going to stick with you can't log it PIC if you don't have your instrument and are in IFR conditions.

You most certainly can log it as PIC. 61.51(e)(i).

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated

 

[Tram]

Well, if you don't have an instrument ticket, no you can't log actual instrument flying - as your not rated for it..

 

[LarryinTN]

Well, if you don't have an instrument ticket, no you can't log actual instrument flying - as your not rated for it..

The regulation says "of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated". Instrument conditions are not an aircraft.


This is from an article on the Las Vegas FSDO's site:

Thus a non-instrument rated pilot taking instrument flight instruction, if rated in the aircraft, may log PIC based on the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule. Since there is nothing in the rules that addresses meteorological conditions, the pilot may log PIC while in the clouds. This is supported by FAA chief counsel opinions [Federal Regulations Explained-Jeppesen].

Here's the whole article: http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm


Here is a collection of FAA chief counsel opinions on the subject of logging PIC time. http://williams.best.vwh.net/ftp/avsig/pic.txt

You know, none of this is new. The same questions were going around over twenty years ago when I was learning to fly. It's amazing that we have to continually re-invent the wheel on this. Why aren't CFI's passing down these information to their students so that when they become CFI's they aren't spreading around these false interpretations?

 

[Tram]

Ah, true.. that makes sense..

 

[fokkers&beer]

You can log PIC throughout your instrument, commercial, and CFI ratings, everyone is correct on that. The only catch I see is that when you start filling out airline apps, like it was brought out previously, your total time collumn will not be the sum of your dual, sic, and pic collumns. This is a pretty quick check for any logged errors in ones logbook. Its always nice to add your collumns and see they all equal your TT collumn. (This check is from your SEL, SES, MEL collumns as well as your PIC, SIC, and Dual collumns.) Like I said this double check is a nice feature.
The other thing that works out well is when you start filling out apps and they have one of those grid boxes, if you have logged your time and it adds up, the grid adds up perfectly.
The man who told me to add my time like this was very wise, and it has helped. He explained it to me by saying its only 50 or maybe 60 hours total throughout all your ratings, and it will help later. I have thanked him many times. He also said his airline would question why your collumns did'nt add up. I have never seen this, but I guess it could happen. My logbooks all add up.
I know some people vehemently disagree with this, but like I said, it helps finding errors, its a drop in the bucket for total time, and this is good enough for me.

 

[Tram]

Yeh, I just did the SE + ME = TT and am like .4 off.. I guess I will dig through the log book and find out where the error was made...

 

[Da Vinci]

one of my instrument instructors let me log actual IMC as PIC, then i had another that refused. i'm reading this getting pissed off b/c i lost quite a bit of IMC time as PIC. if i didn't have so many hours after my instrument rating, i'd pencil in all that imc pic time!!!!!!!!!!!!!! too much white-out!! ....i need imc pic time and if some of you guys are right...i was ROBBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!