How about this for PBS at ASA

[CFIT]

In all fairness there were a number of SAPA reps that spent tons, tons of time working issues of AOS PBS before it went out to the group, to the tune of about 18 months of effort. Brad first agreed to it because it was felt it would be a QOL improvement for the flight crews, that is how AOS was selected, because it was the cheapest vendor out there. When it was found out that it would save the company big, then Brad said fix it and get it on.

Albiet, AOS PBS is still crap, just not as bad as it first was, but still crap.

But seriously, if the company wants it real bad, it's not for the crews QOL.

 

[Speedtape]

Speedtape,

I pretty much agree with your post except for the last two sentences in the first paragraph. The PBS instructors are line pilots and flight attendants. You can call anyone of them, and they will give you an honest answer. This information is not controlled by the company.

Thanks, I stand corrected. I was given that information from one of your pilots. He told me that you had to call the scheduling folks and then they had to research your bid.

 

[601Pilot]

Good idea, rather than talk to the only people who know anything about PBS (at ASA), you stick your head in the sand. If you believe some people who are representing you are not truthful, you need to start asking questions....This way you can piece together what you need to know and what you are hearing.

There's gonna be positives and negatives to this system. It won't be all positive and it won't be all negative as others have written. Think about the benefits of having it vs. not. Don't take my word for it, write BH. I did. I've talked to both the Company and Union at length over it. You'd be surprised what you learn if you just dig a little.

Trojan

You are assuming both sides are telling you the truth of how it is going to work. I doubt both sides at this point. PBS relies squarely on the pairings being built by the company, regardless of which system you use and our company builds some horrible pairings. If they want to impress me, they might want to improve the pairings for a few years before attempting to implement PBS.

 

[USCtrojan]

You are assuming both sides are telling you the truth of how it is going to work. I doubt both sides at this point. PBS relies squarely on the pairings being built by the company, regardless of which system you use and our company builds some horrible pairings. If they want to impress me, they might want to improve the pairings for a few years before attempting to implement PBS.

Okay, so where do you get your information? FI? I go to the source and conclude on my own. I assume nothing. I know this..... that virtually every other Carrier we compete with has it, so we either 1) take a paycut or 2) welcome PBS. It's an easy choice for me.

Trojan

 

[maxcackel]

Okay, so where do you get your information? FI? I go to the source and conclude on my own. I assume nothing. I know this..... that virtually every other Carrier we compete with has it, so we either 1) take a paycut or 2) welcome PBS. It's an easy choice for me.

Trojan

Really? I don't know about you but I have a contract that does not allow 1) A Paycut or 2) PBS, unless we vote for it. Stop with the scare tactics no one here is buying it.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Really? I don't know about you but I have a contract that does not allow 1) A Paycut or 2) PBS, unless we vote for it. Stop with the scare tactics no one here is buying it.

True, neither of those will come without approval...that's because he left out option 3 that doesn't need/get our approval, shrinking. If we aren't efficient (or perceived as being efficient by Delta), then we will definitely not get additional flying, and will eventually start shrinking.

Welcome to the new aviation industry!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Speedtape,

I pretty much agree with your post except for the last two sentences in the first paragraph. The PBS instructors are line pilots and flight attendants. You can call anyone of them, and they will give you an honest answer. This information is not controlled by the company.

That's why one of the PBS instructors that I asked to tell me what the problem was(after getting previous input from 3 other PBS trainers to improve bid results), told me, "it looked like I pretty much got what I wanted"! Yeah, right...PM to AM trips, 3 days instead of locals(that people junior to me were getting), and those 3 days and AM trips were all forced pairings for "coverage" that weren't even in my 7th layer.

 

[Plainsman]

If we have to get pbs, how about we get in return an extra hour of sick time every month. Not that I would use it unless I was sick. Companys got to bend a little. That commuter policy sure doesn't help me.

 

[Speedtape]

That's why one of the PBS instructors that I asked to tell me what the problem was(after getting previous input from 3 other PBS trainers to improve bid results), told me, "it looked like I pretty much got what I wanted"! Yeah, right...PM to AM trips, 3 days instead of locals(that people junior to me were getting), and those 3 days and AM trips were all forced pairings for "coverage" that weren't even in my 7th layer.

So, trying to understand your post, do you feel you got an adequate/satisfactory answer or response from the instructor to explain the result of your bid and so that you might be more informed in your future bidding? Or, were you left in the dark and frustrated that AOS is a VooDoo PBS and even instructors are not able to transfer useful knowledge because, they too, don't have the answers/knowledge?

Thanks for your response in advance!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So, trying to understand your post, do you feel you got an adequate/satisfactory answer or response from the instructor to explain the result of your bid and so that you might be more informed in your future bidding? Or, were you left in the dark and frustrated that AOS is a VooDoo PBS and even instructors are not able to transfer useful knowledge because, they too, don't have the answers/knowledge?

Thanks for your response in advance!

Sorry if it was a little fuzzy... I talked to one of the PBS trainers after the bids came out and told him my concerns, and wondered what could be done to improve things. I mentiioned that I had already discussed in great detail what could be done to improve things with other PBS trainers, and hadn't had great success. Some of the things I considered problems on the bid award that I asked him to look at were: 1.) Getting several 3 day trips that I hadn't even bid on my 7th layer, while several people junior to me got the locals I was trying to get. 2.) Getting the AM trips that I hadn't bid, and getting them after PM's(leaving minimal rest time). 3.) It didn't seem to matter what I chose for block hours or days off, the results were never even close.
He said he'd look into it, and several days later I got the "it looks like you pretty much got what you wanted" response...Not very helpful to say the least!




P.S. None of the 3-day trips or AM pairings were even in my 7th layer. They were "forced" onto my schedule for "coverage", while several people junior to me were flying the pairings that had actually been in my bid.

 

[Speedtape]

P.S. All the 3-day trips and AM trips were forced pairings that I hadn't placed anywhere on my bid, and there were several crewmembers junior to me getting the pairings I had bid.
I got that scary part. Eeek! That part, "Forced pairings," is one of the very undesirable things about all PBS systems, but especially AOS. I hear that it is probably the worst of all in that regard. I believe the reason for it is the logic which disregards the seniority concept to a large degree in finding solutions, and uses more of a form of "global logic" in finding solutions. By that, I mean it looks for an overall solution for all bidders (and the company settings) and to some degree ignores the individual pilot's request at the order in which he bids. This would explain your dilemma.





Sorry if it was a little fuzzy... I talked to one of the PBS trainers after the bids came out and told him my concerns, and wondered what could be done to improve things. I mentiioned that I had already discussed in great detail what could be done to improve things with other PBS trainers, and hadn't had great success. Some of the things I considered problems on the bid award that I asked him to look at were: 1.) Getting several 3 day trips that I hadn't even bid on my 7th layer, while several people junior to me got the locals I was trying to get. 2.) Getting the AM trips that I hadn't bid, and getting them after PM's(leaving minimal rest time). 3.) It didn't seem to matter what I chose for block hours or days off, the results were never even close.
He said he'd look into it, and several days later I got the "it looks like you pretty much got what you wanted" response...Not very helpful to say the least!

Thank you; that was very clear. This is no disrespect meant to you or your instructors, as I am trying to get my brain around it. I guess this confirms what I had heard earlier in that PBS kind of operates in a cloak of secrecy there and no one really understands fully how it operates or are able to explain it to any great degree to improve in bidding on an individual basis. Is that a fair assessment?

You guys have had AOS for about 5 years now(since 2004)????

 

[SSDD]

Not knowing your particular situation I can't comment directly, but what I will say is that, in general, what that means, is that there were SO MANY RESTRICTIONS placed in the bid, that the program could not actually build a reasonable line. When it gets to the 7th layer, rather than puting you on reserve, it builds a line, period.

This comes up time and time again. People build in so many parameters into their bid, that PBS can't meet any of them. Like any other computer program, PBS can only work with what you tell it. It can not think on its own.

We all make mistakes in bidding. I have from time to time. But looking back at it, I've found that PBS gave me what I ASKED for, even if it was not what I WANTED.

Speedtape,

Again, there is no cloak of secrecy. It is a computer program(not the best available) but a program none the less. There is no major conspiracy. It doesn't favor one employee over another. It doesn't favor junior people. But it has to be understood.

 

[SLUF4]

If the company wants us to get something, it's probably not good for us (as a pilot group). It may be good for reducing cost.

 

[Speedtape]

SSDD,

Thanks for your response as PBS seems to have the some of the same characteristics as many of the women I have known.

--gave me what I ASKED for, even if it was not what I WANTED.
--PBS can only work with what you tell it. It can not think on its own.
--there is no cloak of secrecy
--But it has to be understood

Just kidding! It does not have all of the characterisitics of any of the women I have known!(Wink, Wink)

 

[SSDD]

I don't want to come accross as a PBS cheerleader. Obviously there is a lot of savings in it for the company. And you guys should research it, and make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. And make sure the parameters are written into your contract. Its just that PBS itself is not evil. And you can actually make it work to your advantage. There is a lot of flexibility, if you know how to use it.

It took me a while, but I prefer it over hard lines any day.

 

[Speedtape]

I don't want to come accross as a PBS cheerleader. Obviously there is a lot of savings in it for the company. And you guys should research it, and make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. And make sure the parameters are written into your contract. Its just that PBS itself is not evil. And you can actually make it work to your advantage. There is a lot of flexibility, if you know how to use it.

It took me a while, but I prefer it over hard lines any day.

It seems that many pilots who understand it and learn the limitations prefer it over line bidding.

One explanation that I have heard is that the logic is defaulted to award all pilots a schedule that no pilot would ever bid. But, through the pilot's bid or preferences, the default logic can be averted if the pilot bids or shows preferences that are different than the default logic. An analogy being that it will drive you off a cliff if not redirected by a pilot bid or preference as a new guidance system.

So, in a sense, you have to learn to beat the machine--depending on bidding strategy, seniority, understanging what your seniority will yield, not being too restrictive, and as has been said, placing conflicting restrictions or so many that it will not allow the machine to process.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Okay, so where do you get your information? FI? I go to the source and conclude on my own. I assume nothing. I know this..... that virtually every other Carrier we compete with has it, so we either 1) take a paycut or 2) welcome PBS. It's an easy choice for me.

Trojan

Brad installed the frozen Kool-Aid machine, huh? PBS is not a competition tool, it's a PROFIT enhancing tool, you tool! PBS is a PAYCUT, less vacation and sick time accrual, if you think Brad is going to give you increased vac and sick time accrual without a concession in exchange you are experiencing brainfreeze. You will trade PBS for increased accrual and end up with a net loss, you will work more for less, but you will be able to bid the day off for that NAMBLA meeting though.
PBR

 

[USCtrojan]

Brad installed the frozen Kool-Aid machine, huh? PBS is not a competition tool, it's a PROFIT enhancing tool, you tool! PBS is a PAYCUT, less vacation and sick time accrual, if you think Brad is going to give you increased vac and sick time accrual without a concession in exchange you are experiencing brainfreeze. You will trade PBS for increased accrual and end up with a net loss, you will work more for less, but you will be able to bid the day off for that NAMBLA meeting though.
PBR

It's because you have it, we have to have it. Maybe flying around 90 seats for 50 seat pay will work too. Thanks for drawing that imaginary line and raising the bar for everyone. It's either that, or a very real paycut. We have a Union that's backed by the RLA, that definitely helps when it's signed on the dotted line. Plus, it goes to a vote by the rank and file. My guess is, it will have a lot of benefits you never saw. Then it will be given to you, courtesy of the ASA pilots. Back to your kiddie porn activities coattail dragger.

Trojan

 

[79%N1]

How about in exchange for PBS, we negotiate the ability to drop portions of trips - or at least allow us to put portions into an open time pot. I think it's rediculous we didn't get that in this contract. Most airlines allow you to drop a portion of a trip, allowing many people to drop a round trip at the beginning or end of a trip. What does it hurt if someone picks it up, anyway?

 

[Speedtape]

How about in exchange for PBS, we negotiate the ability to drop portions of trips - or at least allow us to put portions into an open time pot. I think it's rediculous we didn't get that in this contract. Most airlines allow you to drop a portion of a trip, allowing many people to drop a round trip at the beginning or end of a trip. What does it hurt if someone picks it up, anyway?

Who would get the minimum day credit?