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Honest question about ATP requirement

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Flyer1015

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2004
Posts
4,502
No flame intended in this post. It is a legitimate question. I understand it's a hot button issue, but bear with me.

Suppose a FO, SIC, is on a RJ, with less than 250 hrs PIC. Certified only for Comm/Inst/ME, and wants an ATP.

Here's the excerpt from FAA requirements:
250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include
  1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
  2. 25 hr. of night flight time
The way I'm looking at it is either a PIC of an airplane (like even a Cessna 152), OR, as a SIC (certified SIC on RJ) performing the functions of PIC under supervision of PIC. Now what that would exactly entail is something I'm not sure. I imagine someone would sign the logbook stating it is so, probably the Captain.

Please understand that this isn't flame, and I certainly am NOT saying that this is a way for SICs to build that 1000 PIC that Southwest or other majors require. Not at all. I agree for that, you have to upgrade, fly as a CA, the PIC and do that for a year+.

BUT. For the purposes of meeting the 250 hr ATP requirement, so you can go and take the checkride, is it not allowed? The way this is written for Part 61 ATP requirements, it seems it would be.

Any rebuttals to the rule? Anyone done it this way?

Again, no flame. Honest open question.
 
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What are you asking? Should the CA need to sign the co pilots log book?
Well, no, that's technically not required, you as SIC can note it.

But I mean, "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the Part 61 requirement for the ATP license: is it something that SIC RJ FOs can do to meet the requirement of the ATP, instead of spending $120/hr on a C172 to get the 70 or so more hours to meet the 250 hrs PIC requirment? That's like almost 9 grand. What FO can afford that in todays environment?
 
Well, no, that's technically not required, you as SIC can note it.

But I mean, "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the Part 61 requirement for the ATP license: is it something that SIC RJ FOs can do to meet the requirement of the ATP, instead of spending $120/hr on a C172 to get the 70 or so more hours to meet the 250 hrs PIC requirment? That's like almost 9 grand. What FO can afford that in todays environment?

Yea that's the case for an FAA ATP, all you need is 250 hours of SIC if you don't have the PIC. The problem is with the ICAO ATP standards which you actually need a certain amount of PIC which I believe is at least 150 hours. That's what the 200 hour wonders have a problem with when they upgrade and have to buy 172 time.
 
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Yea that's the case for ATP, all you need is 250 hours of SIC if you don't have the PIC. The problem is with the ICAO ATP standards which you actually need a certain amount of PIC which I believe is at least 150 hours. That's what the 200 hour wonders have a problem with when they upgrade and have to buy 172 time.

So if you have more than ACTUAL 150 hours PIC (Cessnas and Pipers), then you are good to go? 250 PIC - 150 actual PIC = 100 hrs. So you can still use 100 hrs as "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the requirement?

How would one go about noting the logbook for these 100 hrs?
 
So if you have more than ACTUAL 150 hours PIC (Cessnas and Pipers), then you are good to go? 250 PIC - 150 actual PIC = 100 hrs. So you can still use 100 hrs as "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the requirement?

How would one go about noting the logbook for these 100 hrs?

Yea ICAO ATP is the one where half the SIC can be counted as PIC but you still need I believe at least 150 hours of actual PIC.
 
I believe the "SIC acting as PIC" goes back to the Part 61 definition of PIC which includes any leg on which you are the "sole manipulator of the controls". While I would not recommend calling this PIC time on a subsequent job application, it would count as PIC time for the purposes of qualifying for the ATP.
 
From 14 CFR 61.159(d), it appears that the PIC time requirements are for ICAO standards. If an applicant is short on PIC time, issuing the ATP with an appropriate limitation is possible. Then, after the pilot acquires sufficient PIC time, the limitation may be removed. Why would this provision keep 200-hour wonders from earning the ATP?
 
I believe the "SIC acting as PIC" goes back to the Part 61 definition of PIC which includes any leg on which you are the "sole manipulator of the controls". While I would not recommend calling this PIC time on a subsequent job application, it would count as PIC time for the purposes of qualifying for the ATP.

It's not just sole manipulator, it has to be agreed upon by the real PIC that you are doing this ("Captain for a Day") and logged accordingly.

- Log it as a separate column, don't include in your real PIC (it's not)

- In 121, better get the company's permission first. Maybe they could arrange for you to fly with a check airman to cover their own ass.

- Don't count it as TPIC or for job applications.

- It will not count for ICAO ATP PIC so you will not be able to upgrade if your airline flies international.

Mesa used to do this for their MAPD grads.
 
From 14 CFR 61.159(d), it appears that the PIC time requirements are for ICAO standards. If an applicant is short on PIC time, issuing the ATP with an appropriate limitation is possible. Then, after the pilot acquires sufficient PIC time, the limitation may be removed. Why would this provision keep 200-hour wonders from earning the ATP?

Go read it again, carefully.

The 250 hours PIC is required for a US ATP also.

The old 1200 hour ICAO PIC requirement seems to no longer exist, here's the latest ICAO annex 1 requirements for an ATP:

a) 500 hours as pilot-in-command under supervision or 250 hours, either as pilot-in-command, or made
up by not less than 70 hours as pilot-in-command and the necessary additional flight time as pilot in
command under supervision;
b) 200 hours of cross-country flight time, of which not less than 100 hours shall be as pilot-in-command
or as pilot-in-command under supervision;
c) 75 hours of instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and
d) 100 hours of night flight as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot.
 
This thread is rehashed here about every 6 months. RIckair777777777 is the only one who is mistaken. Everyone else has good info.


Flyer1015 -- ( you asked this question 2 months ago??)
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=133497&highlight=250+pic+atp

flya380
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=105751&highlight=250+pic+atp

ocp
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=70605&highlight=250+pic+atp

Dufus1
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=60355&highlight=250+pic+atp



Oh, and a bunch of others that did not come up at the top of the results page when searching 250 atp pic.
 
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The problem is with the ICAO ATP standards which you actually need a certain amount of PIC which I believe is at least 150 hours.
Does someone have a link to ICAO ATP Standards? I've tried to find it, but can't. Anyone know the criteria for a ICAO ATP?
 
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least --

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane --

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.


(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time --

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(d) An applicant may be issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the endorsement, "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO," as prescribed by Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant:

(1) Credits second-in-command or flight-engineer time under paragraph (c) of this section toward the 1,500 hours total flight time requirement of paragraph (a) of this section;

(2) Does not have at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command time and none of his or her flight-engineer time; and

(3) Otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section.

(e) When the applicant specified in paragraph (d) of this section presents satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command flight time and none of his or her flight-engineer time, the applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the endorsement prescribed in that paragraph.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61-109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003]
 
When the applicant specified in paragraph (d) of this section presents satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command flight time and none of his or her flight-engineer time, the applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the endorsement prescribed in that paragraph.

So if I read this correct, as long as you have 2,400 of SIC time, then you don't get the PIC restricted endorsement?

Because 50% of 2,400 = 1,200 hrs as required by ICAO.

Correct?
 
So if I read this correct, as long as you have 2,400 of SIC time, then you don't get the PIC restricted endorsement?

Because 50% of 2,400 = 1,200 hrs as required by ICAO.

Correct?

The rules might have changed, according to Rickair7777s post. Look for it. Under the old rules, you still need actual PIC. That's the whole reason why there were people buying 172 time to upgrade, it's not just SIC time.
 
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- It will not count for ICAO ATP PIC so you will not be able to upgrade if your airline flies international.

My company had more than a few that fell into said category, and they were STILL allowed to upgrade. The company simply kept them from flying into Canada and Mexico till they met the requirement.
 

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