Honest question about ATP requirement

[Flyer1015]

No flame intended in this post. It is a legitimate question. I understand it's a hot button issue, but bear with me.

Suppose a FO, SIC, is on a RJ, with less than 250 hrs PIC. Certified only for Comm/Inst/ME, and wants an ATP.

Here's the excerpt from FAA requirements:

250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include

1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
2. 25 hr. of night flight time

The way I'm looking at it is either a PIC of an airplane (like even a Cessna 152), OR, as a SIC (certified SIC on RJ) performing the functions of PIC under supervision of PIC. Now what that would exactly entail is something I'm not sure. I imagine someone would sign the logbook stating it is so, probably the Captain.

Please understand that this isn't flame, and I certainly am NOT saying that this is a way for SICs to build that 1000 PIC that Southwest or other majors require. Not at all. I agree for that, you have to upgrade, fly as a CA, the PIC and do that for a year+.

BUT. For the purposes of meeting the 250 hr ATP requirement, so you can go and take the checkride, is it not allowed? The way this is written for Part 61 ATP requirements, it seems it would be.

Any rebuttals to the rule? Anyone done it this way?

Again, no flame. Honest open question.

 

[CX880]

What are you asking? Should the CA need to sign the co pilots log book?

 

[Flyer1015]

What are you asking? Should the CA need to sign the co pilots log book?

Well, no, that's technically not required, you as SIC can note it.

But I mean, "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the Part 61 requirement for the ATP license: is it something that SIC RJ FOs can do to meet the requirement of the ATP, instead of spending $120/hr on a C172 to get the 70 or so more hours to meet the 250 hrs PIC requirment? That's like almost 9 grand. What FO can afford that in todays environment?

 

[CX880]

Well, no, that's technically not required, you as SIC can note it.

But I mean, "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the Part 61 requirement for the ATP license: is it something that SIC RJ FOs can do to meet the requirement of the ATP, instead of spending $120/hr on a C172 to get the 70 or so more hours to meet the 250 hrs PIC requirment? That's like almost 9 grand. What FO can afford that in todays environment?

Yea that's the case for an FAA ATP, all you need is 250 hours of SIC if you don't have the PIC. The problem is with the ICAO ATP standards which you actually need a certain amount of PIC which I believe is at least 150 hours. That's what the 200 hour wonders have a problem with when they upgrade and have to buy 172 time.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yea that's the case for ATP, all you need is 250 hours of SIC if you don't have the PIC. The problem is with the ICAO ATP standards which you actually need a certain amount of PIC which I believe is at least 150 hours. That's what the 200 hour wonders have a problem with when they upgrade and have to buy 172 time.

So if you have more than ACTUAL 150 hours PIC (Cessnas and Pipers), then you are good to go? 250 PIC - 150 actual PIC = 100 hrs. So you can still use 100 hrs as "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the requirement?

How would one go about noting the logbook for these 100 hrs?

 

[CX880]

So if you have more than ACTUAL 150 hours PIC (Cessnas and Pipers), then you are good to go? 250 PIC - 150 actual PIC = 100 hrs. So you can still use 100 hrs as "SIC acting as PIC" to meet the requirement?

How would one go about noting the logbook for these 100 hrs?

Yea ICAO ATP is the one where half the SIC can be counted as PIC but you still need I believe at least 150 hours of actual PIC.

 

[DUATS]

I believe the "SIC acting as PIC" goes back to the Part 61 definition of PIC which includes any leg on which you are the "sole manipulator of the controls". While I would not recommend calling this PIC time on a subsequent job application, it would count as PIC time for the purposes of qualifying for the ATP.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

From 14 CFR 61.159(d), it appears that the PIC time requirements are for ICAO standards. If an applicant is short on PIC time, issuing the ATP with an appropriate limitation is possible. Then, after the pilot acquires sufficient PIC time, the limitation may be removed. Why would this provision keep 200-hour wonders from earning the ATP?

 

[rickair7777]

I believe the "SIC acting as PIC" goes back to the Part 61 definition of PIC which includes any leg on which you are the "sole manipulator of the controls". While I would not recommend calling this PIC time on a subsequent job application, it would count as PIC time for the purposes of qualifying for the ATP.

It's not just sole manipulator, it has to be agreed upon by the real PIC that you are doing this ("Captain for a Day") and logged accordingly.

- Log it as a separate column, don't include in your real PIC (it's not)

- In 121, better get the company's permission first. Maybe they could arrange for you to fly with a check airman to cover their own ass.

- Don't count it as TPIC or for job applications.

- It will not count for ICAO ATP PIC so you will not be able to upgrade if your airline flies international.

Mesa used to do this for their MAPD grads.

 

[rickair7777]

From 14 CFR 61.159(d), it appears that the PIC time requirements are for ICAO standards. If an applicant is short on PIC time, issuing the ATP with an appropriate limitation is possible. Then, after the pilot acquires sufficient PIC time, the limitation may be removed. Why would this provision keep 200-hour wonders from earning the ATP?

Go read it again, carefully.

The 250 hours PIC is required for a US ATP also.

The old 1200 hour ICAO PIC requirement seems to no longer exist, here's the latest ICAO annex 1 requirements for an ATP:

a) 500 hours as pilot-in-command under supervision or 250 hours, either as pilot-in-command, or made
up by not less than 70 hours as pilot-in-command and the necessary additional flight time as pilot in
command under supervision;
b) 200 hours of cross-country flight time, of which not less than 100 hours shall be as pilot-in-command
or as pilot-in-command under supervision;
c) 75 hours of instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and
d) 100 hours of night flight as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot.