holding out

[Bernoulli]

As a commercial pilot (not an operator) you are only alowed to charge $ for a select few services... such as, banner towing, crop dusting, sight seeing within 25miles of departing airport and returning to point of departure, aerial photography, sky diving if within 25 miles and returning to point of departure. So here is my question. If you only had a commercial pilots certificate and you wanted to build time doing any of the above, are you allowed to hold out. That is, are you allowed to advertise your services and accept $ from anyone who is willing to pay?

 

[avbug]

Don't be ridiculous. You're allowed to hold out. How are you going to find work if you don't?

You're operating under a misconception, a myth. You can't hold out to fly someone to another destination for compensation or hire, and even if you do it without adversing, word of mouth is enough to establish that you've held out. But that's not he issue.

You can offer yourself and your airplane for towing, sightseeing, whatever.

Even if it's within 25 nm, you can't land at a point other than the point of departure, unless you're Part 135.

You can advertise your pilot services all you like. If someone else invites you to fly them around in their airplane, you can fly them around the world, if you like. You just can't do it if they're accepting compensation or payment from any passenger or for carrying any goods, etc.

Send out resumes. Advertise yourself. Put up flyers and adds...will fly anything, any time, any place. Hold out all you want. So long as you're not holding out as being willing to transport persons or property for hire, and providing the means to do so, you're not in jeopardy.

 

[midlifeflyer]

avbug,

=definitely= one of your very best answers.

 

[de Pez]

The ORIGINAL QUESTION was:

"Are you allowed to advertise your services and accept money from anyone who is willing to pay...(with only a commercial pilot certificate)"

A completely reasonable question from someone honestly seeking information.

The condesceding response was:
"Don't be ridiculous. You're allowed to hold out. How are you going to find WORK (my emphasis) if you don't?"..."Hold out all you want. So long as you're not...willing to transport persons or property for hire.."



By defintion, WORK is "to obtain material for personal benefit from one's efforts"...The question and the answer are both saying the same thing, just mired in semantics.

 

[avbug]

No, mate. That's not it at all. To quote:

So here is my question. If you only had a commercial pilots certificate and you wanted to build time doing any of the above, are you allowed to hold out.

Are you allowed to hold out? Absolutely.

Condescending? Perhaps if your skin is paper thin, and you're still attached to your mother's breast. Otherwise, grow up.

Yes, you can hold out. Not for certain activities, and this is NOT, repeat NOT a matter of semantics.

You cannot hold out to transport persons or property for hire to a point other than the point of destination. You can hold out to do local scenic flights, flight instruction, banner towing, ag work, flying skydivers, and all manner of other flying. You may hold out for certain functions, but not others. The distinction is critical as to weather one keeps one's pilot certificate, or not.

It's not semantics; it's important, need to know information.

Can one hold out? One must hold out, and yes, one can. Just not for certain functions, unless requirements such as may be outlined in Part 119, are met.

As for the definition of work, you need to do a little more research.

 

[de Pez]

"No, dickhead. "

Ah, the sign of a brilliant orator...Those incapable of expressing themselves clearly often resort to inane, pre-pubescent personal attacks. Your words have diminished your credibility to the point of frivolity..

And my defintion of "work" comes directly from the Oxford American Dictionary...

Perhaps, you think you can belittle others in an attempt to inflate an incipient Ego, or assuage the inadequacies of the individual staring at you in the mirror... I don't know, maybe your mother didn't hold you as a child, regardless it doesn't matter...Try to engage your brain before spouting your mindless obscenites and drivel.

 

[avbug]

When you're done whining, do you have anything else to add? Weren't you the one who jumped in to attack others, with nothing worthwhile to contribute? Still waiting.

While you're working on the definition of "work," you might note that there are many connotations and purposes. Work in the context of physics has an entirely different meaning, which has nothing to do with economic benifit.

Here we have someone asking if it's okay to hold out to gain experience. I stipulated, correctly, that it is okay to hold out to obtain work. Employment. A job. It is okay to do this for many purposes, except for transporting persons or property between two points for compensation or hire. That requries an operating certificate, as provided in 14 CFR Part 119.

When you're done crying in your suds, do you have anything worthwhile to say, or is this going to be an attack-and-whine session, mate?

 

[de Pez]

Yawn..You attempt to defend that which is indefensible,. You diminish your argument with your silly name calling. Perhaps you should spend a little less time writing several thousand posts to anonymous individuals and get out a bit...The BUG portion of your screen name is painfully appropriate...I'll leave you now, your arguments have grown tiresome..Also, spell check every once in awhile. It adds credibility, even to the most inane positions.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I don't post a lot but I have managed to find myself at odds with avbug. It can be frustrating. He can be condescending- yes. Obnoxious- occasionally. Inarticulate- not by a long shot.

This is actually one of the funniest threads I have read on here

 

[avbug]

So what you're saying depez, you thickheaded pusnutted knot earned peabrain, is that you really have nothing to contribute. Is that it?

Fact: a commercially certificated pilot may hold out.

Fact: a commercially certificated pilot may not hold out for transportation of persons or property for hire between two points without an operating certificate.

Fact: a pilot who wishes to gain work must hold out to obtain that work.

Fact: a commercially certificated pilot is allowed to advertise his or her services and accept $ from anyone who is willing to pay, within limits, with caveat, as already provided in this thread.

I speak facts, you speak crap. Yawn over that, mate. Is that articulate enough for you, you pedantic slapass tittwisting prick? Or would you prefer I just quote bill shakespeare and wax poetic about slipping the bonds in mystic flight?

When one deals in facts, credibility isn't an issue.

 

[redd]

de Pez, you said to avbug,

Also, spell check every once in awhile. It adds credibility, even to the most inane positions.

Uhm....maybe you should too...

You posted:

And my defintion of "work" comes directly from the Oxford American Dictionary...

I believe definition is spelled with 3 "I's"....and....

You posted:

Try to engage your brain before spouting your mindless obscenites and drivel.

And obscenities is spelled with 2 "I's".

Also...

You said:

And my defintion of "work" comes directly from the Oxford American Dictionary...

Perhaps, you think you can belittle others in an attempt to inflate an incipient Ego,

Uhm, I think you meant to say, insipid, or insipient, instead of incipient. From Websters, incipient means:

"\In*cip"i*ent\, a. [L. incipiens, p. pr. of incipere to begin. See Inception.] Beginning to be, or to show itself; commencing; initial; as, the incipient stage of a fever; incipient light of day."

Insipient means:

\In*sip"i*ent\, a. [L. insipiens; pref. in- not + sapiens wise.] Wanting wisdom; stupid; foolish. [R.] --Clarendon. -- n. An insipient person.

Insipid means:

Lacking flavor or zest; not tasty. Lacking qualities that excite, stimulate, or interest; dull.



So maybe you should use the dictionary first before throwing it at others, maybe it would improve your "credibility" as well.

Nuff said.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So what you're saying depez, you dickheaded pusnutted knot earned peabrain, is that you really have nothing to contribute. Is that it?

Okay. Okay. Time for your meds.

 

[de Pez]

Redd-

Incipient: "in it's early stages, small, growing slowly." Precisely the word that I meant. As in a small Ego..

avbug-

You've referenced the phallus with negative overtones on at least four different occasions in your rants. I have asked you to desist, but you continue to wallow in the mire of obscenities. At first I thought it was simply gutter talk or a lack of a creative vocabulary. But it's clear that you have an unhealthy obsession with the male genitalia. Perhaps it's penis envy, a hermaphroditic issue, or simple latent homosexuality expressing itself through your pointless tirades. Not being a true advocate of Freud, I believe it to be the latter..

But dealing in facts...You curse like a sailor, and because of this diminish yourself and whatever point you may be trying to make. I'd like to have a reasonable, balanced exchange of ideas, but your words preclude that.. I will not stoop to your bathhouse level of communication. If you feel compelled to focus on the male phallus, feel free to do so...without me..

 

[A Squared]

Uhhh, de pez,

Avbug gave a complete and accurate response to the question asked. As nearly as I can tell, you didn't understand the question asked at all. Now, you may take exception to his delivery of that answer, but it is in fact correct. As far as the mud slinging to which you've helped reduce the thread; you may both be hurling insutts and personal attacks, but at least Avbug is contributing accurate factual information with his insults. You? well, you're just contributing insults.

 

[52Vincent]

Define please:

Not making any sense to me, in the context that it is being used in all the aforementioned posts.

Thank you for your help!

 

[redd]

Uhh, de Pez,

Then you mean he has a “beginning, as in developing a sense of self” or he has a small ego meaning he is humble.

You are the one that attacked his response.


Perhaps in truth, you are the one with the insipidly insipient ego.

 

[avbug]

Upon request of UAL78, for whom I have respect, I have altered previous posts.

You curse like a sailor,

Thank you. I was afraid my choice of language might be mistaken for being a longshoreman, roughneck, or cowpunch. I'll take that as a compliment.

Not being a true advocate of Freud, I believe it to be the latter..

Oh, come now. You can't have it both ways.

I'd like to have a reasonable, balanced exchange of ideas

I seriously doubt that. Else you would have contributed to the original poster and answered his question. Instead you elected to enter the conversation with a direct attack. You just didn't like the results. You like to be high and mighty, and when I elected to take a different approach in addressing your mindless drivel, you could not handle it. Interesting. The thinking man never fights through the front door, unless the opposition is preparing to repel an attack at the side door. Apparently you merely wish others to view you as a thinking man, oh affiant of sir freud.

You don't really deserve to be accorded the acknowledgement of mateship; nor shall I make reference to you by phallic reference. Nor shall I attempt to address you at whatever level you suppose yourself to be. To me, kiddo, you shall henceforth, in the spirit of that high-brow chronicle "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, be known as "Freud-dude."

Bring it on, freud-dude. I must ask again, do you have ANYTHING to contribute to the subject of this thread, namely the issue of holding out?

For 52Vincent, holding out means advertising one's services, or in fine, holding out to the public as being willing to perform a certain service. In the context of commercial flying acts and privileges, the FAA is interested in holding out to the public as being willing to provide public transportation for goods or services. In a practical sense, this means offering to fly someone somewhere, or their things somewhere, for a price. It also means advertising pilot services to do the same.

As an example, when in High School, I was a private pilot who wanted to fly, but could hardly afford to do so. I made up flyers advertising scenic rides during various school functions; fly people over the town to see the lights at night. I envisioned an opportunity to do lots of flying for very little money. I was a private pilot, and could only share expenses. I advertised that fact with full disclosure, and the flyers specifically set forth the terms of splitting costs. I would pay a pro rata share, and was quite clear about that.

I soon got a call from the fixed base where I rented the airplanes, and where I worked washing and waxing airplanes. I was told I had better make all that go away before the government folks got hold of it...holding out. The person who called me was doing me a big favor at the time, though at 17 years old I didn't see it that way. I was holding out pilot services at a time in my career when it wasn't permitted.

Holding out isn't just the written advertisement. Word of mouth, even when you don't start the rumor, can also be holding out, and the FAA has construed it this way in past enforcement action. For example, if a person approaches a private pilot and asks the private pilot to fly them to a destination, and offers to pay for gas or other expenses...the FAA is very interested in knowing how that passenger became informed of the possibility in the first place. The rumor or word of mouth that the private pilot might be available to make the flight is enough to establishe holding out, and in the event the private pilot takes the flight, this may be used in conjunction with other evidences against that pilot.

 

[AxisVDP]

After reading this entire thread I still have no idea what the phrase "hold out" means. Can someone clue me in?

 

[pilotman2105]

Look for Advisory Circular 120-12A on the FAA website... I can't get to it at the moment to get you a link.

 

[AxisVDP]

Got it. Thanks

120-12A