holding out

[redd]

Uhh, de Pez,

Then you mean he has a “beginning, as in developing a sense of self” or he has a small ego meaning he is humble.

You are the one that attacked his response.


Perhaps in truth, you are the one with the insipidly insipient ego.

 

[avbug]

Upon request of UAL78, for whom I have respect, I have altered previous posts.

You curse like a sailor,

Thank you. I was afraid my choice of language might be mistaken for being a longshoreman, roughneck, or cowpunch. I'll take that as a compliment.

Not being a true advocate of Freud, I believe it to be the latter..

Oh, come now. You can't have it both ways.

I'd like to have a reasonable, balanced exchange of ideas

I seriously doubt that. Else you would have contributed to the original poster and answered his question. Instead you elected to enter the conversation with a direct attack. You just didn't like the results. You like to be high and mighty, and when I elected to take a different approach in addressing your mindless drivel, you could not handle it. Interesting. The thinking man never fights through the front door, unless the opposition is preparing to repel an attack at the side door. Apparently you merely wish others to view you as a thinking man, oh affiant of sir freud.

You don't really deserve to be accorded the acknowledgement of mateship; nor shall I make reference to you by phallic reference. Nor shall I attempt to address you at whatever level you suppose yourself to be. To me, kiddo, you shall henceforth, in the spirit of that high-brow chronicle "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, be known as "Freud-dude."

Bring it on, freud-dude. I must ask again, do you have ANYTHING to contribute to the subject of this thread, namely the issue of holding out?

For 52Vincent, holding out means advertising one's services, or in fine, holding out to the public as being willing to perform a certain service. In the context of commercial flying acts and privileges, the FAA is interested in holding out to the public as being willing to provide public transportation for goods or services. In a practical sense, this means offering to fly someone somewhere, or their things somewhere, for a price. It also means advertising pilot services to do the same.

As an example, when in High School, I was a private pilot who wanted to fly, but could hardly afford to do so. I made up flyers advertising scenic rides during various school functions; fly people over the town to see the lights at night. I envisioned an opportunity to do lots of flying for very little money. I was a private pilot, and could only share expenses. I advertised that fact with full disclosure, and the flyers specifically set forth the terms of splitting costs. I would pay a pro rata share, and was quite clear about that.

I soon got a call from the fixed base where I rented the airplanes, and where I worked washing and waxing airplanes. I was told I had better make all that go away before the government folks got hold of it...holding out. The person who called me was doing me a big favor at the time, though at 17 years old I didn't see it that way. I was holding out pilot services at a time in my career when it wasn't permitted.

Holding out isn't just the written advertisement. Word of mouth, even when you don't start the rumor, can also be holding out, and the FAA has construed it this way in past enforcement action. For example, if a person approaches a private pilot and asks the private pilot to fly them to a destination, and offers to pay for gas or other expenses...the FAA is very interested in knowing how that passenger became informed of the possibility in the first place. The rumor or word of mouth that the private pilot might be available to make the flight is enough to establishe holding out, and in the event the private pilot takes the flight, this may be used in conjunction with other evidences against that pilot.

 

[AxisVDP]

After reading this entire thread I still have no idea what the phrase "hold out" means. Can someone clue me in?

 

[pilotman2105]

Look for Advisory Circular 120-12A on the FAA website... I can't get to it at the moment to get you a link.

 

[AxisVDP]

Got it. Thanks

120-12A

 

[midlifeflyer]

After reading this entire thread I still have no idea what the phrase "hold out" means. Can someone clue me in?

In the aviation context, all it means is that you are letting the public that you are available to provide air transportation. "The public" includes any segment of the public that you are trying to attract. And it doesn't have to be many. For example, if you are one pilot with a 172, how much business can you possibly do? You don't have to advertise either - word of mouth that people "know" you are available is enough.

"Holding out" doesn't have or need an FAR definition. As one of the traditional tests for the difference between "private carriage" and "common carriage", it's legal meaning goes back to well before the Wright Brothers' flight., probably to before stage coaches.

What activities constitute "holding out"? You won't find a complete list anywhere. It's use for FAA enforcement purposes is like the "only incidental to a business" test, applied and defined by FAA opinion and case law.

Simple test? "If it quacks like a duck..."

 

[100LL... Again!]

I was holding out in a theater in Sarasota once, till the cops got me. The resulting pulicity ended my very lucrative saturday morning TV career and subsequent movies, as well.

 

[Pilot124]

WOW.....I asked relatively the same question about a month ago and mud started slinging then too. AVBUG did answer my question and he just answered this one to. AVBUG don't let people get to you. When young pilots have an honest question, hands down are the best and most accurate at answering them. People may not like how you answer them but you do state the facts. I for one have learned alot from you..Thanks!!!