History repeats itself. Pilots start thinking DOH matters

[Russ]

The NIC award and the recent DL/NWA award are the new standards

Standard or exception I wonder. While I would think everyone would like it to go as seamlessly as that, I think any future mergers will be contentious.

 

[General Lee]

1. If you need to use hyperbole to make a point you already lost the debate.

2. Your scenario is not a merger.

3. Still, you're talking about merging ~60 pilots with over 11,000 pilots. Yes relative seniority still applies. Is your assumption that a 737 Captain cannot bid 777 Captain and be successful? If you're concerned, build a 3-5 year fence and quit crying.

No, I don't think those 60 would be put anywhere close to the top of the new list. Exact relative would not apply. But, they wouldn't be stapled, either. NIC didn't put AWA at the top of the USAir list because they were not exactly alike (both not INTL carriers). NWA and DL were alike, with similar histories, but one had more widebodies etc. Then the arbitrators took into account some of the future retirements at NWA, and created the final list. It all depends on what you bring to the table.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Standard or exception I wonder. While I would think everyone would like it to go as seamlessly as that, I think any future mergers will be contentious.

Exception? Are you talking about TWA with AA? Since then a new law was enacted by the Missouri Senators stating you cannot just staple people to the bottom. (Their constituents in St Louis were screwed obviously)

Can you give me an example of a recent merger of ALPA carriers that wasn't relative seniority? A full merger, not just parts of the airline. At USAir and DL----both groups tried to negotiate their own lists, that failed, and then they went to binding arbitration. If you had a young group (like CAL) going to merge with an older one (UAL), every CAL pilot will demand binding arbitration, (thanks to watching what happened at DL/NWA and USAir). Every UAL pilot will ask for DOH, and will likely lose because of the precedent already set with the first two mergers.

And, every merger is contentious, unless you get a Joint Contract first with pay raises. That takes some of the sting out of a seniority list integration. (SLI) USAir didn't do that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Company ABC starts up with 4 737's. After two years of service they get bought by AMR because AMR is looking for a quick easy increase in lift. The top guy has been at work for 24 months and uses your arguement as stated above and is immediatley looking for the keys to 777 parked at the next gate.

Just saying, you cannot make blanket statements like that, they don't always work.

AA would just staple em like they did with Reno.

 

[Russ]

Speaking in general terms, the DAL/NWA merger was about as smooth as any I've seen in the past couple of deaces of watching mergers. I think it was the exception and that while it should be held up as a model for future mergers, I don't know if it will.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Speaking in general terms, the DAL/NWA merger was about as smooth as any I've seen in the past couple of deaces of watching mergers. I think it was the exception and that while it should be held up as a model for future mergers, I don't know if it will.

Ditto!

All handled in house. Very quiet. Nice.

 

[Turtle21]

Of course you do. That's all Easties can think about. Nevermind the fact that the "ALPA" that has allegedly hurt them so many times over the years are, in fact, themselves.

Go whine to someone who gives a sh*t.

I don't think he is whining. I think he is just having fun getting your blood pressure to spike.

How's that "binding thingy" working out? Furloughed yet?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Seniority at a specific company is something that worked during the Industrial Age. Too bad we are well into the Information Age. Perhaps seniority does more harm than good.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Longevity is unequal to seniority.....plain and simple.

 

[densoo]

Might want to check your facts, hoss.

My stock is worth around 40 grand right now that I got from the merger. It tripled in price from when I got it after the merger (was only 4 bucks a share then..now its right around 13)

Thanks for the factual correction (from you and General Lee). $40K and rising (apparently) is still not bad though. I expect the next industry merger will be pushed with a paycut saying if you don't give up something, you'll give up everything.

Got to respect DAL and NWA pilots for at least getting something out of the deal. And that can't have hurt how smoothly the integration seems to have worked.

 

[FDJ2]

I would agree that USAir in this case midjudged the arbitraters decision but I still think DOH, Length of service does matter.

You are correct that DOH/LOS matters, it's part of the equation, but so does Category/status ratios and yes, career expectations.

Although all seniority integrations will turn on their own facts, of those three elements, DOH/LOS, Category/Status and career expectations, without question the biggest factor and the one which has dominated recent seniority list integrations has been Category/Status.

Career expectations and DOH/LOS have played minor roles, but their value is uncertain. If DOH had a standard value across the industry, we'd all upgrade within the same time period into the same equipment. The DOH of a pilot at CMR, for example, does not carry the same weight as the DOH of a pilot at DAL. Career expectations can also play a minor role, but the equity that has carried the most weight is the value of the job brought to the merger, Category/Status.

 

[becket]

I don't think he is whining. I think he is just having fun getting your blood pressure to spike.

How's that "binding thingy" working out? Furloughed yet?

The binding part is working out flawlessly. You cowards have spent multiple millions of dollars on a sham lawyer and foregone hundreds of millions of dollars in increased pay and benefits just to evade the "binding thingy".

Permanent Injunction.

You've failed every step of the way...that's an odor should should have grown accustom to by now being a AAA guy and all.

And no, I am not where you were when this merger was announced, hundreds of pilots deep in furlough.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Is it true that the final arbitrated award to USAIr was worse than what the USAir guys would have gotten in the negotiated integration?

What were the main differences between the award and the last positions in the negotiations?

Thanks!
cliff
NBO

 

[Turtle21]

The binding part is working out flawlessly...

Yeah I noticed.

 

[TWA Dude]

Is it true that the final arbitrated award to USAIr was worse than what the USAir guys would have gotten in the negotiated integration?

I'm afraid your question is moot because there was no negotiated integration and never would've been. The sides were too far apart.

What were the main differences between the award and the last positions in the negotiations?

The arbitrated list was very close to the AWA final position (relative seniority) and very far from the East's demand for DOH with meaningless conditions and restrictions.

 

[michael707767]

You are correct that DOH/LOS matters, it's part of the equation, but so does Category/status ratios and yes, career expectations.

Although all seniority integrations will turn on their own facts, of those three elements, DOH/LOS, Category/Status and career expectations, without question the biggest factor and the one which has dominated recent seniority list integrations has been Category/Status.

Career expectations and DOH/LOS have played minor roles, but their value is uncertain. If DOH had a standard value across the industry, we'd all upgrade within the same time period into the same equipment. The DOH of a pilot at CMR, for example, does not carry the same weight as the DOH of a pilot at DAL. Career expectations can also play a minor role, but the equity that has carried the most weight is the value of the job brought to the merger, Category/Status.

FDJ2 has it exactly right. The value of the job you bring to the merger is and should be the overriding factor.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Career expectations and DOH/LOS have played minor roles, but their value is uncertain. If DOH had a standard value across the industry, we'd all upgrade within the same time period into the same equipment. The DOH of a pilot at CMR, for example, does not carry the same weight as the DOH of a pilot at DAL. Career expectations can also play a minor role, but the equity that has carried the most weight is the value of the job brought to the merger, Category/Status.

"Career expectations" are a moving target that are in the eye of the beholder....There are pilots who were hired at Southern to fly Metros who then became Northwest pilots and now Delta pilots...How do they compare to the "career expectations" of TWA, Pan Am, and Braniff pilots?

When I hired on at ASA, there were no jets, and I hired into a plane that had 15 seats with no pressurization,FA, or lav.....Now ASA has only jets, including jets that are as big as the smallest DC9 that Northwest had...

Times change, and expectations change...Nothing is certain, except the fact that your expectations in this business will change and the end result will never be what you "expected"....Time for a different benchmark....

 

[eaglesview]

FDJ2 has it exactly right. The value of the job you bring to the merger is and should be the overriding factor.

What exactly do you mean "the value of the job you bring to the merger?" How do figure that out?

 

[General Lee]

"Career expectations" are a moving target that are in the eye of the beholder....There are pilots who were hired at Southern to fly Metros who then became Northwest pilots and now Delta pilots...How do they compare to the "career expectations" of TWA, Pan Am, and Braniff pilots?

When I hired on at ASA, there were no jets, and I hired into a plane that had 15 seats with no pressurization,FA, or lav.....Now ASA has only jets, including jets that are as big as the smallest DC9 that Northwest had...

Times change, and expectations change...Nothing is certain, except the fact that your expectations in this business will change and the end result will never be what you "expected"....Time for a different benchmark....

Joe, your lack of a college education and your 3 DUI's are really the main reasons why you have not and cannot leave ASA, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, your lack of a college education and your 3 DUI's are really the main reasons why you have not and cannot leave ASA, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Actually, I have the college degree, and no DUIs or failed checkrides....I haven't left ASA, because I have never applied anywhere else...Hard to get hired somewhere when you haven't applied...

Now would you care to address the issues I raised?

 

[General Lee]

Actually, I have the college degree, and no DUIs or failed checkrides....I haven't left ASA, because I have never applied anywhere else...Hard to get hired somewhere when you haven't applied...

Now would you care to address the issues I raised?

Well, as long as you don't get mad and throw your beer bottle at me.....

Your current worth in a merger is your current position and your current potential. What you make now and what you can make in the future. If your airline is going to go BK or liquidate, then what you make in the future is worth less than someone comparable at your seniority level at the stable airline you are merging with. That guy that started at Southern on a Metro would have been tacked on the bottom of a merged list if he was still on the Metro when they merged with NWA or Republic, with larger planes and higher salaries. I would think that plenty of current legacy pilots started flying smaller planes way back when, but then climbed the ladder and made it through furloughs etc, and are now where they are currently. It is all what you currently bring to the table---that is what you are worth.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, as long as you don't get mad and throw your beer bottle at me.....

Your current worth in a merger is your current position and your current potential. What you make now and what you can make in the future. If your airline is going to go BK or liquidate, then what you make in the future is worth less than someone comparable at your seniority level at the stable airline you are merging with. That guy that started at Southern on a Metro would have been tacked on the bottom of a merged list if he was still on the Metro when they merged with NWA or Republic, with larger planes and higher salaries. I would think that plenty of current legacy pilots started flying smaller planes way back when, but then climbed the ladder and made it through furloughs etc, and are now where they are currently. It is all what you currently bring to the table---that is what you are worth.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, you need to go back and do some research...That Southern pilot that hired into the Metro wasn't "stapled" to the bottom of the NWA list, and they weren't "stapled" to the bottom of the Delta list....

I'm not interested in "merging" with you....I work for a very profitable company....I'm just bringing some facts to the debate...

 

[FDJ2]

"Career expectations" are a moving target that are in the eye of the beholder....There are pilots who were hired at Southern to fly Metros who then became Northwest pilots and now Delta pilots...How do they compare to the "career expectations" of TWA, Pan Am, and Braniff pilots?

When I hired on at ASA, there were no jets, and I hired into a plane that had 15 seats with no pressurization,FA, or lav.....Now ASA has only jets, including jets that are as big as the smallest DC9 that Northwest had...

Times change, and expectations change...Nothing is certain, except the fact that your expectations in this business will change and the end result will never be what you "expected"....Time for a different benchmark....

Joe, that is why career expectations is not given the same weight as category status and the value of the jobs brought to the merger. DOH/LOS also is not given much weight either, after all, no one cares what date you started at your airline, anymore than they care what date a euro or peso were minted, what matters is what that euro or peso can buy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, that is why career expectations is not given the same weight as category status. DOH/LOS also is not given much weight either, after all, no one cares what date you started at your airline, anymore than they care what date a euro or peso were minted, what matters is what that euro or peso can buy.

Why did "category status" become so important?

 

[FDJ2]

Why did "category status" become so important?

It's an equity, a very definable one, and it's a dominat factor, recognized by many arbitrators, in constructing ISSLs. Other factors, like DOH and career expectations haven't played nearly as dominat a role.

 

[FR8mastr]

Why did "category status" become so important?

Because... What if a relative position airline guy's company merged with a smaller company that flew, oh I don't know, say something smaller. Well then you could not have a "relative position" seniority integration now could you. If that merger happened you could get the smaller company, along with their smaller aircraft pilots ahead of the larger companies pilots.

So in order to advocate relative position mergers and still protect number 1 you have to add "category status".

This way you can have it all, you can still bash DOH, and US Air, but at the same time still claim a senior position in the above scenario.
That is until the merger is with Virgin America, or some new upstart with 35 AB parked on the ramp

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's an equity, a very definable one, and it's a dominat factor, recognized by many arbitrators, in constructing ISSLs. Other factors, like DOH and career expectations haven't played nearly as dominat a role.

Longevity in this business is also a very definable equity...It is also a dominant factor to many of us....

It was really a mistake to make such a big deal about "category" in the first place.....What makes a narrow body pilot worth so much less than a wide body pilot? This silly little game of "my plane is bigger than your plane" got us into this pickle in the first place...

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I have never known an airline pilot group that is so caught up in category of aircraft flown as I have with Delta. Tell me Deltoids, what do you 767-400 pilots say that you fly now that there is a 747-400 on property? Are your fragile ego's able to handle not being distinguished by the 400 branding? At least NWA didn't come with a 300ER of their own or it could have been disatrous! (TIC)

Seriously though-

How can any of you argue for career expectations? What is the difference between a merger changing career expectations and an economic downturn doing the same. What about management parking additional airplanes (UPS) that causes stagnation? Is there really a legitimate difference between any of these?

How about recognizing that we individual pilots cannot control the airline we fly for and we stop trying...and fighting each other.

 

[TWA Dude]

JoeMerchant:
Have you had a chance to read the Nicolau Award? In it he clearly explains his reasoning which would answer your questions.

How can any of you argue for career expectations?

The answer is that on a certain date (snapshot) one can see how many airplane deliveries are scheduled and determine how much hiring is required. That's all there is to it.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

General, you need to go back and do some research...That Southern pilot that hired into the Metro wasn't "stapled" to the bottom of the NWA list, and they weren't "stapled" to the bottom of the Delta list....

I'm not interested in "merging" with you....I work for a very profitable company....I'm just bringing some facts to the debate...

No, you're more interested in filing a frivilous lawsuit to get what you couldn't through the interview process!
Nice try putz. I think your girl poindexter (n2264j) could use a hug!