History repeats itself. Pilots start thinking DOH matters

[Russ]

The NIC award and the recent DL/NWA award are the new standards

Standard or exception I wonder. While I would think everyone would like it to go as seamlessly as that, I think any future mergers will be contentious.

 

[General Lee]

1. If you need to use hyperbole to make a point you already lost the debate.

2. Your scenario is not a merger.

3. Still, you're talking about merging ~60 pilots with over 11,000 pilots. Yes relative seniority still applies. Is your assumption that a 737 Captain cannot bid 777 Captain and be successful? If you're concerned, build a 3-5 year fence and quit crying.

No, I don't think those 60 would be put anywhere close to the top of the new list. Exact relative would not apply. But, they wouldn't be stapled, either. NIC didn't put AWA at the top of the USAir list because they were not exactly alike (both not INTL carriers). NWA and DL were alike, with similar histories, but one had more widebodies etc. Then the arbitrators took into account some of the future retirements at NWA, and created the final list. It all depends on what you bring to the table.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Standard or exception I wonder. While I would think everyone would like it to go as seamlessly as that, I think any future mergers will be contentious.

Exception? Are you talking about TWA with AA? Since then a new law was enacted by the Missouri Senators stating you cannot just staple people to the bottom. (Their constituents in St Louis were screwed obviously)

Can you give me an example of a recent merger of ALPA carriers that wasn't relative seniority? A full merger, not just parts of the airline. At USAir and DL----both groups tried to negotiate their own lists, that failed, and then they went to binding arbitration. If you had a young group (like CAL) going to merge with an older one (UAL), every CAL pilot will demand binding arbitration, (thanks to watching what happened at DL/NWA and USAir). Every UAL pilot will ask for DOH, and will likely lose because of the precedent already set with the first two mergers.

And, every merger is contentious, unless you get a Joint Contract first with pay raises. That takes some of the sting out of a seniority list integration. (SLI) USAir didn't do that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Company ABC starts up with 4 737's. After two years of service they get bought by AMR because AMR is looking for a quick easy increase in lift. The top guy has been at work for 24 months and uses your arguement as stated above and is immediatley looking for the keys to 777 parked at the next gate.

Just saying, you cannot make blanket statements like that, they don't always work.

AA would just staple em like they did with Reno.

 

[Russ]

Speaking in general terms, the DAL/NWA merger was about as smooth as any I've seen in the past couple of deaces of watching mergers. I think it was the exception and that while it should be held up as a model for future mergers, I don't know if it will.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Speaking in general terms, the DAL/NWA merger was about as smooth as any I've seen in the past couple of deaces of watching mergers. I think it was the exception and that while it should be held up as a model for future mergers, I don't know if it will.

Ditto!

All handled in house. Very quiet. Nice.

 

[Turtle21]

Of course you do. That's all Easties can think about. Nevermind the fact that the "ALPA" that has allegedly hurt them so many times over the years are, in fact, themselves.

Go whine to someone who gives a sh*t.

I don't think he is whining. I think he is just having fun getting your blood pressure to spike.

How's that "binding thingy" working out? Furloughed yet?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Seniority at a specific company is something that worked during the Industrial Age. Too bad we are well into the Information Age. Perhaps seniority does more harm than good.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Longevity is unequal to seniority.....plain and simple.

 

[densoo]

Might want to check your facts, hoss.

My stock is worth around 40 grand right now that I got from the merger. It tripled in price from when I got it after the merger (was only 4 bucks a share then..now its right around 13)

Thanks for the factual correction (from you and General Lee). $40K and rising (apparently) is still not bad though. I expect the next industry merger will be pushed with a paycut saying if you don't give up something, you'll give up everything.

Got to respect DAL and NWA pilots for at least getting something out of the deal. And that can't have hurt how smoothly the integration seems to have worked.

 

[FDJ2]

I would agree that USAir in this case midjudged the arbitraters decision but I still think DOH, Length of service does matter.

You are correct that DOH/LOS matters, it's part of the equation, but so does Category/status ratios and yes, career expectations.

Although all seniority integrations will turn on their own facts, of those three elements, DOH/LOS, Category/Status and career expectations, without question the biggest factor and the one which has dominated recent seniority list integrations has been Category/Status.

Career expectations and DOH/LOS have played minor roles, but their value is uncertain. If DOH had a standard value across the industry, we'd all upgrade within the same time period into the same equipment. The DOH of a pilot at CMR, for example, does not carry the same weight as the DOH of a pilot at DAL. Career expectations can also play a minor role, but the equity that has carried the most weight is the value of the job brought to the merger, Category/Status.

 

[becket]

I don't think he is whining. I think he is just having fun getting your blood pressure to spike.

How's that "binding thingy" working out? Furloughed yet?

The binding part is working out flawlessly. You cowards have spent multiple millions of dollars on a sham lawyer and foregone hundreds of millions of dollars in increased pay and benefits just to evade the "binding thingy".

Permanent Injunction.

You've failed every step of the way...that's an odor should should have grown accustom to by now being a AAA guy and all.

And no, I am not where you were when this merger was announced, hundreds of pilots deep in furlough.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Is it true that the final arbitrated award to USAIr was worse than what the USAir guys would have gotten in the negotiated integration?

What were the main differences between the award and the last positions in the negotiations?

Thanks!
cliff
NBO

 

[Turtle21]

The binding part is working out flawlessly...

Yeah I noticed.

 

[TWA Dude]

Is it true that the final arbitrated award to USAIr was worse than what the USAir guys would have gotten in the negotiated integration?

I'm afraid your question is moot because there was no negotiated integration and never would've been. The sides were too far apart.

What were the main differences between the award and the last positions in the negotiations?

The arbitrated list was very close to the AWA final position (relative seniority) and very far from the East's demand for DOH with meaningless conditions and restrictions.